Little White Lies We're Supposed To Tolerate?

[CY0811]

"synthetic sapphire".....dealers started saying this when they sort of knew it wasnt genuine sapphire....but was better then your everyday mineral glass crap...IMHO

Also, one dealer would use an advertising technique and then some of the others would follow the trend ...aka Ultimate etc. No big deal IMO, just advertising tactics.

Bottom line 1:1 means damn close to 1:1 but lets be honest a rep is still just a rep....just research a bit and dont impulse buy and usually youll be OK unless of course the issues/flaws are blatant and in that case usually your dealer will make things right.....our dealers arent perfect but I still like em around but I do think this thread will clarify some things for both dealers and buyers...sometimes things have to be brought up...Pug was the guy.

[Watchmeister]

And it goes on and on.... Anyone know how to end this loop - oh yeah stop reading it. Well I did learn one thing I didn't know before I started - never buy an Omega with a 2892 in it. Thanks for the info.

Oh, and for those who don't like what any specific dealer is doing with their advertising I have a solution - don't buy from them. Because if you are - then you are the ultimate hypocrite.

[Pugwash]

Oh, and for those who don't like what any specific dealer is doing with their advertising I have a solution - don't buy from them. Because if you are - then you are the ultimate hypocrite.

I'm glad you brought that up.

I'm not planning on organising a boycott or a witch-hunt over this, as that doesn't help the hobby, but I am actively stating that I am no longer buying from dealers that deliberately misrepresent their products. Well, I'm trying, anyway.

I'll also find it very difficult to recommend them and their service to others, but I'm undecided on how to do this; I don't want to be a [censored].

[Watchmeister]

Pug-

You started this mess. Just wait until that next limited edition run comes out. No soup for you.

Lest we all forget, obviously all the rantings and ravings over Paul have put him out of business. He is selling franchises.

Well, if someone actually keeps track of those watches which truly are not what they say then something good has come out of it.

[Pugwash]

Pug- You started this mess. Just wait until that next limited edition run comes out. No soup for you.

That's the price I have to pay.

[NRG]

Thanks for playing. I'm glad you're happy to be lied to.

Please don't call me a hypocrite. I don't appreciate it.

Anybody who wishes to participate in this "hobby" should realise they are being lied to only the noobs are naive enough to believe they will get a gen 2892 in a $200 watch. I apologise if my use of hypocrite offended you, however, I feel that anybody who partakes in the purchase of illegal counterfeit product should not get all moralistic over the description of the product.

[Watchmeister]

No guts, no glory!

[jonthebhoy]

No guts, no glory!

......and no lies, no story!

JTB

[fotoman]

Whoaaaaaaaaaa. Just fukin-A-stop that silly [censored] right there.

This has been a very good thread, and I appreciate the fact that my Pugnacious friend brought to the front some issues that have been a concern, and threaten to be an even greater concern. Joshua and Andrew are not perfect people, and although I do like both of them a lot, I recognize that there have been some legitimate issues, but when a guy with 50 posts starts screaming their names and calling for a rope, this thing has gotten way out of line.

A witch hunt is an ugly thing and those of you who would sit still and see this thread devolve to that without saying something ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

Bearcat, EXACTLY which advertisement was it that misled YOU.

Have YOU bought anything from Josh or Andrew that gives you a legitimate license to [censored]?

Tell me, which watch was advertised as having a "synthetic sapphire" crystal -- and nobody need jump in here. I remember that well, and I remember talking to Josh about it one evening for about an hour, but I want to know what Bearcat actually knows about any of this.

How's your Chinese Bearcat? How well would you do as an entrepreneur in the Asian world. Learning the words is one thing, but shades of meaning, and accepted usage is quite another.

Having had the benefit of a long conversation with Joshua on the subject of "Synthetic Sapphire," let me ask you some questions in your own language.

How many perfectly legtimate watch manufacturers call their crystals "Sapphire," as in just plain sapphire? Virtually all of them.

The word "synthetic" is not a first grade word is it? It actually means something man made that approximates the real thing doesn't it - and don't quote me Webster. If I said something "synthetic" is something made by man to mimic the real thing, how are you going to quibble with that?

That's pretty close in meaning to other English words like "fake," "faux," and "imitation" isn't it. Who would have any trouble with calling mineral glass, "fake sapphire," "faux sapphire" or "imitation sapphire."

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that someone did NOT know that "sapphire" as used in the watch industry actually means "synthetic sapphire," it would be equally reasonable for an honest man to call mineral glass "synthetic sapphire." Wouldn't it -- especially if others in the industry were doing it.

I can almost here the chorus of, "Oh my, oh my . . . just because others in the industry do it doesn't make it right." [censored]. The industry accepts calling a synthetic sapphire "sapphire" just as if it were made from a gem doesn't it.

Anyway Bearcat, if you never even saw the advertisement, let alone bought a "synthetic sapphire" crystal, or asked asked Joshua for an explanation - don't be clambering on a bandwagon you don't know [censored] about to call the lynch mob together.

As for the 1:1 nonsense, I don't like it either, but EXACTLY what does that mean - and which 1:1 representation are YOU taking issue with. Have YOU bought a 1:1 watch? Have you whipped out your trusty micrometer and compared it to a gen? Was it off spec? To what extent? Lets us keep in mind that a watch can be 1:1 even if the damn dial is printed upside down and backwards.

In other words, by definition, 1:1 means the size ratio between the real thing and the model - it has not one damn thing to do with aesthetic accuracy.

As for words like "perfect," "best," "ultimate," or "God's Blessed Gift to the Horological Faithful," how can anyone in the western world fault an Asian for engaging in the very act that we perfected, and in fact have a name for - "puffery." Bearcat, if you bought a "Perfect Submariner" what did you expect? The "Perfect" Submariner wouldn't be perfect without a Rolex movement now would it -- were you astonished to find that your "Perfect" Sub had a fine Swiss ETA movement that's probably every bit as good as the tempermental POS you have to send back to Uncle Rollie every three years so he can rescrew you.

They charge you $300 and up for that Dude, and I have a $300 Swiss ETA Replica Rolex that has stayed within 5 seconds a day for a lot longer than that with no service at all.

I am responding to Bearcat, but my comments could just as well be addressed to many of you.

Pug is generally pretty careful in selecting his words, and he did not call this thread, Lying Thieving Bastards Who Ought to be Lynched. He has been around a while, he has observed a trend that seems to be getting worse, and he has brought the matter forward for comment - probably setting the trend back significantly in the process.

I personally applaud that.

On the other hand, "loyalty" is a human quality that I admire and endeavor to manifest in my day to day life. I have bought more watches from Joshua and Andrew than most of those who have posted to this thread put together and they have been honest with me, fair to me, and done right by me whenever something has gone wrong. They are at least as honest as anyone else here and a damn site more honest than most. They are always the subject of accolades on here and they have to be sitting back wondering, "WTF is this!"

If some miserable, misguided, ungrateful mope who has no fukin clue what the rest of the replica industry is like wants to have a hanging, I'm just not inclined to sit still for it, and sitting here keeping my mouth shut would make me feel like a disloyal punk.

Just my .02

Bill

This is pretty much the harm that a thread like this can do. I have disagreed with the premis on most points since the begining - of course everything but the movements seems to me to be a little silly. For all you people who want to start tarring and feathering josh and andrew, I think you need to re-evaluate your perspective in life - You guys don't know how good you have it. Seriuosly - Stop bitching - even if you did fall for "Synthetic" saphire - your still getting a great product. Your holding our dealer friends up to To HIGH a standard to expect them to not "creatively name" parts ect ect ect. Like we said before, did you get what was pictured? yes? well shame on you for not doing your research - i draw the line at movements.

But - point is - this is the best getting replicas has EVER BEEN EVER IN HISTORY - so sit back, stop yoru bitching and enjoy your watch. No need to ruin things for the rest of us- causing problems just because we "led a noob" to buy a fantastic watch that has, oh, mineral glass vs. saphire. - Who Cares - your paying 200 bucks for a watch. Most Retail Store 300$ watches don't come with saphire - my citizen didn't and it lists for 3 something.

if your not happy with a dealer's product, use a different dealer- if there aren't enough here, i can sen you over to RWI there are 5 more over there. You will find someone your happy dealing with - but creating all of this negative crap doesn't help the dealers, or us or anyone. Your right, these are the little white lies we put up with - why? becuase its the real world and these guys are in china and they are selling counterfiet goods - Get over it already - they are honest guys - do they push the line sometimes? sure - but get real, were lucky they are as straight up as they are.

You all need to take a step back, look at the big picture and freaking relax. you don't know how good you got it. - Now- if there is some issue with mislabling movements, i think we should take that up with the dealers and straighten that out.

for anyone that was here before perfect clones knows what a service that trusty and josh have brought to us by listing their prices and creating large collections to flip through. - We didn't have that before - and EVERYONE benefits because even if you don't use them you have something to compare to. they have done alot for us and our hobby, i think were being unfair to them now - (except of course for mislablign movements.

[TJGladeRaider]

TJ I hate to say it but pretty much your whole post was based on some shaky logic...

Noob bash? Low post count? That's a bad way to judge someone as often as it is good... I am not saying I don't think his post was a bit out of line, but it's no excuse to lower your own standards.

EDITED

Prior comments removed -- misplaced loyalty I suppose.

Bill

[crystalcranium]

This is pretty much the harm that a thread like this can do. I have disagreed with the premis on most points since the begining - of course everything but the movements seems to me to be a little silly. For all you people who want to start tarring and feathering josh and andrew, I think you need to re-evaluate your perspective in life - You guys don't know how good you have it. Seriuosly - Stop bitching - even if you did fall for "Synthetic" saphire - your still getting a great product. Your holding our dealer friends up to To HIGH a standard to expect them to not "creatively name" parts ect ect ect. Like we said before, did you get what was pictured? yes? well shame on you for not doing your research - i draw the line at movements.

But - point is - this is the best getting replicas has EVER BEEN EVER IN HISTORY - so sit back, stop yoru bitching and enjoy your watch. No need to ruin things for the rest of us- causing problems just because we "led a noob" to buy a fantastic watch that has, oh, mineral glass vs. saphire. - Who Cares - your paying 200 bucks for a watch. Most Retail Store 300$ watches don't come with saphire - my citizen didn't and it lists for 3 something.

if your not happy with a dealer's product, use a different dealer- if there aren't enough here, i can sen you over to RWI there are 5 more over there. You will find someone your happy dealing with - but creating all of this negative crap doesn't help the dealers, or us or anyone. Your right, these are the little white lies we put up with - why? becuase its the real world and these guys are in china and they are selling counterfiet goods - Get over it already - they are honest guys - do they push the line sometimes? sure - but get real, were lucky they are as straight up as they are.

You all need to take a step back, look at the big picture and freaking relax. you don't know how good you got it. - Now- if there is some issue with mislabling movements, i think we should take that up with the dealers and straighten that out.

for anyone that was here before perfect clones knows what a service that trusty and josh have brought to us by listing their prices and creating large collections to flip through. - We didn't have that before - and EVERYONE benefits because even if you don't use them you have something to compare to. they have done alot for us and our hobby, i think were being unfair to them now - (except of course for mislablign movements.

I agree that we have it as good as it gets. I don't think this discussion negates any previous threads about being in the golden age of replicas. I do think it's useful to keep the community of dealers aware that there are certain limits to what we'll be willing to swallow as fact. These guys operate primarily in the black, without any reasonable regulation except our word of mouth. Let's face it, if the wolf showed up at the door of one of our most trusted dealers today and he had to punt and get out of town with thousands of dollars of orders paid for and pending, I doubt we would see any resolution or have any recourse. What's wrong with a little discussion saying "that claim goes over the line of what I think is fair"? I have heard Pugwash repeat several times he didn't want to organize a boycott or be a jerk in this and I think he has brought up an uncomfortable, difficult and necessary point.

[Pugwash]

Now- if there is some issue with mislabling movements, i think we should take that up with the dealers and straighten that out.

We have. They don't listen, hence the point of this thread.

So far, I get the impression that a few people think we're being naive and/or hypocritical to complain about dealers misleading us, but on the whole, the majority of people are relieved that this thread was started. Also, a few people haven't posted for fear of reprisal or whatever.

On the whole, reception to this thread has been positive, especially from a few high-profile members, and in that respect, I refuse to accept the minority opinion that we're just naive hypocrites.

[crystalcranium]

We have. They don't listen, hence the point of this thread.

So far, I get the impression that a few people think we're being naive and/or hypocritical to complain about dealers misleading us, but on the whole, the majority of people are relieved that this thread was started. Also, a few people haven't posted for fear of reprisal or whatever.

On the whole, reception to this thread has been positive, especially from a few high-profile members, and in that respect, I refuse to accept the minority opinion that we're just naive hypocrites.

...and misrepresenting movements is serious business. And they have, as a whole, been pushing the envelope on this recently. And as ETA's come off the market in the next few yeras, .....maybe we're just see ing the beginning of the new marketing. Calling a stepped up 28,000 asian movement an "Asian ETA" is over the line. Now if the dealer used advertising language like "ETA Asian Copy" or "ETAlike movement" or "Movement based on an ETA design" I would have absolutely no problem with that.

[TJGladeRaider]

You all need to take a step back, look at the big picture and freaking relax. you don't know how good you got it. - Now- if there is some issue with mislabling movements, i think we should take that up with the dealers and straighten that out.

for anyone that was here before perfect clones knows what a service that trusty and josh have brought to us by listing their prices and creating large collections to flip through. - We didn't have that before - and EVERYONE benefits because even if you don't use them you have something to compare to. they have done alot for us and our hobby, i think were being unfair to them now - (except of course for mislablign movements.

I probably should address that as I missed that point altogether.

If any dealer is passing off the POS pictured as a genuine ETA 2892, that's fraud -- it's completely dishonest and I would personally support a moratorium on that dealer until the ad is pulled and all watches sold like that are recalled with full credit.

It may have been clear in the posts, but I missed it. Who did that to Whom?

Bill

[spa]

If someone asks me "what do you want to be improved concerning the dealers' advertisements" i would say this:

"Give us as many pics of the actual watch you're going to sell as you can. Give us also a close-up pic with the caseback open to see what's the movement inside.

And, finally, state clearly what kind of crystal this watch has on it and what is the size of the watch."

I think this would be enough for every RWG member to realize how close this rep is to the genuine article hence

how good this rep is.

I never take words like "ultimate" very seriously considered...Instead of that i come here and read members' opinions on that specific model sold by that specific seller....

100% true statements are not very likely to ever happen in the merchant business...

A Mercedes is considered a car without flaws and is advertised as that but, i've been in forums where owners give a lot of hell to that company because of the problems their cars run into....

So.......this is not a perfect* world for sure

Edited January 23, 2007 by spa

[Pugwash]

It may have been clear in the posts, but I missed it. Who did that to Whom?

Currently, Josh, Andrew and Wo-Mart are all selling non-ETA Movements as ETA 2892s. This particular example was sold to Finepics by Joshua in the new Bell and Ross.

[NRG]

...and misrepresenting movements is serious business. And they have, as a whole, been pushing the envelope on this recently. And as ETA's come off the market in the next few yeras, .....maybe we're just see ing the beginning of the new marketing. Calling a stepped up 28,000 asian movement an "Asian ETA" is over the line. Now if the dealer used advertising language like "ETA Asian Copy" or "ETAlike movement" or "Movement based on an ETA design" I would have absolutely no problem with that.

??? Buying a counterfeit watch *is* a serious business. ETA's aren't coming off the market in a few years the ebauche are...

[Pugwash]

??? Buying a counterfeit watch *is* a serious business. ETA's aren't coming off the market in a few years the ebauche are...

ETA will stop supplying all movements to non-Swatch Group members in 2011. It's pretty final.

[NRG]

I probably should address that as I missed that point altogether.

If any dealer is passing off the POS pictured as a genuine ETA 2892, that's fraud -- it's completely dishonest and I would personally support a moratorium on that dealer until the ad is pulled and all watches sold like that are recalled with full credit.

It may have been clear in the posts, but I missed it. Who did that to Whom?

Bill

'Fraud' yes but it's an illegal trade anyhow! Buying the watch even with a gen ETA is _dishonest!_

I'm backing out of this now. Good luck to all in their 'crusade'.

[crystalcranium]

"Give us as many pics of the actual watch you're going to sell as you can. Give us also a close-up pic with the caseback open to see what's the movement inside.

The dealers who are having their names thrown around in this discussion do exactly that. This is more about advertising language than blatant scamming.

Let me just state again for the record that I think Josh and Andrew are part of a VERY short list of individuals that I would trust sending money to on the other side of the world and have a reasonable expectation of getting something close to value in a purchase and have it actually delivered to my door. There is more to being a good businessman than accuracy in the language of advertising. Josh has done replacements and exchanges for defective watches, even for watches that looked different in person than they appeared in photographs without question.

....but as I said before, a movement is the heart and guts of a watch and if they are being misrepresented,....it's serious stuff.

[spa]

well i wrote much more than those you quoted

[eddhead]

I have never believed you have to actually be screwed by someone to demand they shape up. I mean, would you suggest that he, now knowing the truth about the B&R, go ahead and buy one so he has a "right" to talk about the issues?

Have you ever been murdered? Well then better not speak out against violent crime.

Ever been raped? Better not speak out against a rapist unless you were actually his victim.

Would you stand up against a man who beats his kids even if he has never beat you? see how that doesn't work?

Sythetic saphires IS saphire... it's the same stuff, same chemicals, same parts... just minus naturally occuring flaws.

Glass is NOT in anyway saphire and the slope has to be pretty slippery to get those two terms anywhere near each other. You know what, $1 is really close to $.99 and that is really close to $.98 and that is really close to $.97... so tell you what, you give me $1 and I will give you nothing and in the end they are both pretty close so we can call it a wash.

It happens in all aspects of life... camels, backs and straws... we see it every day... I don't see why it's at all surprising to see it here.

All good points

Whoaaaaaaaaaa. Just fukin-A-stop that silly [censored] right there.

How's your Chinese Bearcat? How well would you do as an entrepreneur in the Asian world. Learning the words is one thing, but shades of meaning, and accepted usage is quite another.

Also a good point. I said early on in this thread that we need to make allowances for language and cultural differences understanding that for much of our membership, dealers included, English is a second language. Further, I will agree that for the most part our dealers deliver good value... I have not yet had a problem with anybody. But clearly, the marketing component of the sales process needs some work. The terminology is at best non-intuitive and perhaps even mis-leading (even if not intentionally so) . It blew my mind to read the difference between an ETA movement, and a Swiss ETA movement. And you should not have to be an engineer to understand what "1:1" means. And now the issue of super-lume just popped up. Clearly a signficant portion of our membership not getting what they think they are getting when they buy something, and that needs to be addressed and corrected.

Others on this board have chalked this up to the relative inexperience of some members, and lack of research. I do not think we can take that leap of faith any longer. We just need clarity and intutive language and we will be OK.

[NRG]

ETA will stop supplying all movements to non-Swatch Group members in 2011. It's pretty final.

The decision that sounded the alarm

In 2002, by announcing its decision to reduce, then later to discontinue, the delivery of ébauches (movement blanks) starting in 2006, the Swatch Group provoked a generalized dread among the many subcontractors who used the ETA movement kits as the basis for assembling and finishing other movements. However, in November 2004, the Swiss Competition Commission, COMCO, refused ETA’s decision, and granted a reprieve to buyers of the ébauches. The COMCO decreed that ETA would be obliged to deliver these products until 2010. This additional time would allow various other companies (which, up to then, had been solely concerned with assembly, decoration, and movement finishing, as well as adding modules to the ETA movements) to take the opportunity and start their own autonomous production.

This decision turned out to be a huge stimulus for the Swiss watch industry, suddenly faced with the reality of its own dependence on the deliveries of a quasi-monopolistic manufacturer. As a result, initiatives of all types began to sprout up. Subcontractors began developing their own movements, while watch brands embarked on a race to progressively integrate the necessary savoir-faire, which they lacked before, into their own production.

The Swatch Group’s decision would also have repercussions in the supply of essential components needed to create a mechanical movement, such as the balance spring. Aware of being in the same situation of near dependence with the balance spring (supplied by Nivarox, also belonging to the Swatch Group), several companies came up with initiatives to create independent supplies of balance springs. (This is notably the case with Rolex [see sidebar], Parmigiani Fleurier, and A. Lange & Söhne.)

http://www.europastar.com/europastar/searc...t_id=1003535554

[V]

To be honest I would really prefer that dealers would explain their watches more accurate BUT I am not gonna nail them to the wall if they don't.

They offer great service and excellent after-buying care (plus risk of customs).. All this miseprentation is probably a marketing mistake? Who knows.. I don't believe they intentionally lied to us to scam us..

Now according the 2892 movement that's another story (more serious than the synthetic saphire) that they should explain.. There must be a reason. I really value Joshua as the best dealer in RWG and there must be a reason why that happened.

[Watchmeister]

I am less concerned as to the why this has happened as our dealers are often takers not makers of products than knowing this is the case. I do hope that what does come out of this is people continue to sound off warning bells when they come upon watches which are either persistently problematic or are blatantly not as advertised and mispriced as a result.