Trivia reload...

[automatico]

I made a few updates and reposted this because a lot has changed since it was first posted.  It might be good to refresh memories on how RWC got where it is today (total peckerheads imho).  Since there is not much going on in the forum, maybe it is not a waste of space.

New additions are in italics unless noted.

 

Posted April 30, 2011

https://rwg.cc/topic/132084-mythbusters/

 

Why did Rolex decide to control (buy) 100% of Beyeler dial company?

In 2001 Jean Pierre Jaquet and his 170 employees used to work for various brands like Ulysses Nardin, Swatch group... and Rolex.

Today Swiss Mister Jaquet, from La chaux de Fonds, as been put in jail by judge Sylvie Favre following a scam concerning 250 real/fake 18ct Rolex Daytona (it is said that much more were produced).

Not going into much detail, for some reason Rolex asked the Jaquet Company to do some (let’s call it function work) on Gold Daytona cases.

One day Swiss customs warned Rolex that they found a "strange" stock of presumably fake 18k Rolex Daytona’s, but to confirm that they were fakes they needed expertise from Rolex.

The verdict from the Rolex Technical Department was frightening "It took me some time to tell if the watch was real or fake" said the Rolex expert. No other comment.

So Rolex recently decided to buy Beyeler dial company and the other companies to avoid this situation again (fake Rolex created with real Rolex parts).

Now that Beyeler works only for Rolex, they deliver finished products only to Rolex.

 

"Real" Swiss Fakes:

Nov 3, 2008 - 17:31 Counterfeit watchmakers sent to jail

Watch-movement maker Jean-Pierre Jaquet will spend four and a half years in prison for his role in a counterfeiting scheme that rocked the Swiss timepiece industry.

A court in the western city of Neuchâtel announced on Monday that Jaquet and two others were guilty of aggravated robbery, handling of stolen goods and forgery as part of a fake watch scheme.

Fifteen people in total were implicated in the "Ulysses Affair" which began in 2003 when police raided Jaquet's firm in La Chaux-de-Fonds looking for evidence of a plot that also involved gold heists and stolen Rolex casings. Two people were acquitted.

The court also ordered Jaquet to pay SFr750,000 ($643,940) in restitution. Others involved in the crime received prison terms ranging from three to nine and a half years. Some will pay fines instead.

When news of the scandal broke five years ago watchmakers in Switzerland were outraged.

Nicolas Hayek, president of the world's leading watchmaker, Swatch Group, remarked at the time: "It's like a bunch of cardinals getting together and robbing the Vatican bank."

 

Rolex USA

Can Service 30XX.

Can service 1520/1570 depending on parts.

Will not service 1530/1560.

Do not know for sure about V72 Daytonas but doubt they will service them. Some say Yes, most say No.

Rolex UK

Can Service 1530/1560 depending on parts. Will have Rolex UK only warranty.

Will not service 1030/1080.

Rolex UK will no longer service 5508/5510 Submariners...no case parts.

Rolex Geneva

Can service 1520/1570 depending on parts.

Can service 1580.

Will not service 1530/1560.

Heard they 'might' service V72 Daytonas but the cost is ridiculous. No BB service.

No RSC will work on Valjoux 72 movements because the Swatch group refuses to supply movement parts.

RSC will work on 1665.

 

CRS (stamped in vintage case backs) stands for Charles René Spillmann...established in La Chaux de Fonds (CH) at the begining of last century and made cases and buckles for Rolex and other brands. CRS still exists under another name.

H Stern dials...the family behind Cadrans. Stern did buy PP in the 1930's but they decided a few years later to dispose of their dial business, so the company that made the COMEX & Rail Dials was no longer related to PP.

Stern remained in the dial business until the 1980s, when they sold the company to another dial maker.

Stern dials are easily distinguished by the 5 pointed star on the back of the dial (Stern is German for 'star').

 

Q...What is the retail mark up on a Rolex?

A...43% (may still be the same, some say it is now around 38%)

　

Trivia Additions  2-7-2020  (no guarantee of accuracy):

In 2011 a new 93150 bracelet could be found for about $1000 to $1200.  Now they are around $2000.  There is one on eBay now 'same as new' for $1800, eBay item number 193200191801 and one on Chrono 24 for $1986.  Do not know what the 'official' list price is.

A complete 1570/75 movement in good condition could be found on eBay in 2011 for around $1200, now they are closer to $2000.  Good used 5.3 and 6.0 steel crowns were around $40 or so, now they are $60+/-  Good 7mm crowns were $50 to $60 then, now they are over $100.

Good AK 5500, OP 1002, OPD 1500 etc cases were around $200 on eBay in 2011, now they are approaching $500.  Rotted out examples are often priced as high as good cases.

In 2011 there were quite a few rolex parts accounts held by independent USA rolex repair shops.  After 7-1-2019 there are supposedly NONE.  I heard there may be maybe 5 left.

From what I have read online, the basic rUSA service charge is now $920 plus parts.

　

"The best customer service is no need for customer service."

According to the Business Week tabulation of global brand value, Rolex ranked 71st – ahead of all watch brands, but one notch behind Kleenex.

Virginie Chevailler, a spokesman for Rolex in Geneva, declines to say what evidence is available to confirm that the Wilsdorf Foundation makes charitable donations.

 

2007...What Le Temps has also reported is that Rolex is engaged in a programme of market manipulation ahead of launching a new volume from the Geneva factory.  Unsold watches were being repurchased from retailers, the newspaper said, and contracts with traditional component manufacturers and suppliers were being terminated.  In their place, Rolex is planning to control all parts of the watch production line, adding another 300 workers, and turning out "an even larger output of timepieces".

Reporting a year ago by Le Temps, the leading business newspaper of Geneva, indicated that in 2008, an official check of Rolex’s production suggested 770,000 pieces per year for sales revenue estimated at 4.5 billion Swiss francs (currently $4.9 billion).  That year, the production rate was said to be up by 33% from 1999.  Rolex’s share of the Swiss market in production of timepieces was 16.1%, but almost all (95%) of the output was sold for export.  Geographically, according to Le Temps, Rolex sales went one-third to Europe, one-third to the Americas, and one-third to Asia.  It appears that growth rates in Russia for the European market and China for the Asia market are accelerating, but the details are guesswork.

 

Watchmakers in Europe say that Rolex is preparing to put on the market one million watches per annum.  That represents a jump of almost 30%.  To sell this many, the company is aiming, not so much at taking market share from other luxury watch brands, but rather at existing Rolex owners.  Across the world, watchmakers and jewellers, who have held licences to repair and service Rolexes for many years, report that their contracts are being terminated, and they are being cut off from the supply of certified Rolex spare parts and components on which the quality of the watch and its guarantee depend.  (Remember this was in 2007/2008, it is much worse now)

 

In their place, Rolex is promoting a reduced number of its own service centres. Trade sources say that Rolex has issued a global policy, requiring these centres to lift the price for servicing watches brought in by current owners, so that the cost of repair is at least half or closer to three-quarters of the price of a new watch. In Melbourne, Australia, for example, the estimate for routine servicing for a Rolex Oyster Perpetual Air King (circa 1970) is almost $1,200. In London, the price is the equivalent in pounds. By contrast, in a mid-size town in France, the licensed watchmaker still in business with a Rolex licence charges just €200 for the same job, including parts The licensed watchmakers of Geneva were charging an equivalent t price two years ago.

 

But no more. The French watchmaker isn’t going to last long in the Rolex business, he says.  That is because a flood of new Rolex timepieces is coming, and to assure that they will be sold, the Rolex strategy is to send as many old Rolexes to the scrap heap where they will compete with Asian-made replicas and counterfeits. Rolex clone movements, as they are called in the spam market, are currently priced at around $150. Full fakes or replicas can be bought for between $39 and $69.

Rolex is managing its cut-throat marketing strategy in strict secrecy, and it is the secrecy which preserves the luxury cachet, at least for the time being

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/privatizing-rolex--the-fake-tells-a-truer-tale-2011-3#ixzz1xPnLG846

　

1675 bracelets and hoods:

Oyster
7206 58
7836 258
78360 580

Jubilee
6251 55
62510 H 550 (555 is not correct - it is for thinner watches) - the correct bracelet will have 50 marked at the end and have 550 end pieces.  These pieces accommodate a correct - thicker springbar as well. An american made jubilee with oval links would work as well.

 

Old Rolex from 1960's or before used 304L stainless

Later models used mostly 316L.

Rolex started using 904L in their cases in the mid to late 1980s.
The Sub-Date used 316 steel in all models up to and including the 16800. The 168000, introduced ca. 1988 was the first Sub-Date to use 904L.
The change to 904L came later in the other models but it started in the late 80s with the Sub-Date.

A watch with a case number of 8.5 mill. must be engraved at 12 "ORIG ROLEX DESIGN" and not "REGISTERED DESIGN" so usually watches with this case range have both engravings ("ORIG ROLEX DESIGN" at 12 and "STAINLESS STEEL" at 6).
The lack of both engravings is a bad clue...furthermore the fonts used for reference and case numbers are NOT absolutely consistent to others seen in the same case range for various models ( GMT/explorers).

　

Some of the original 5512 dials are smaller than later models...on an original 5512 pcg chapter dial there is often a correct and original gap....if there is a service dial there is no gap.

8xxxxx 5512 all require LARGER dials. Any regular 5512 matte dial will have a gap in those cases. Thus for a service dial to fit correctly, it must be of a larger diameter.
Early 5512 cases were made to accommodate larger dials (large dials = no gap, small dials = gap). So if a service dial on an early case does NOT have a gap...it's a larger diameter dial which was made specifically for this case.

 

Silver Date wheels did not come on red Subs during the late 1960's or early 1970's (they were white).  

 

1016 springbar p/n...23-9293

1680 springbar p/n...23-9291

5512/13 Bezel retaining ring pn 319-5512

Crystal retaining ring part numbers... 1675 = 319-1675 5513 = 319-5513 etc

 

Star Time Tall Bezels (sapphire) for Men's Rolex DateJust:

OD: 34.56mm

ID: 30.42mm

Thick: 2.75mm

Smooth bezel :
OD: 34.58 mm
ID: 30.40 mm

Thick: 2.8mm

 

Weight:
14060 - 127 grams
16610 - 135 grams
16613 - 148 grams
16618 - 175 grams
1680 - 117 grams

 

From the 'net...

1530/60/70 cal Rolex movements...

For what it's worth, the rotor bridges on all 15xx series movements are all interchangeable.  It's possible to see a 1530 with a 1570 rotor bridge, or a 1520 with a 1555 rotor bridge, or any other strange combination.  In this instance, the movement is actually a 1575 (for which the 1570 rotor bridge is correct), and it's there because something unfortunate happened to the original (probably rust).

The "D" prefix in serial numbers of 15 series movements, indicates that the movement was equipped with a date mechanism (the 1575 is the "date" version of the 1570). "President" day/date models (1555, 1556, etc.), have movements with serial numbers that begin with "DD," which means day/date. chronometer movements intended for standard Oyster Perpetuals, etc., which didn't have dates, have serial numbers with no letter prefixes.

Milgauss movement serial numbers begin with the letter M.

　

Is the genuine watch list price really justified...or are even Replica watch prices overcharged?

A genuine watch IS overpriced at list price if none or very few will sell at list price while the exact same watch will sell in quantity for 20%, 30% or 40% etc less than list price.

Example...try to sell an Invicta at list price. They will fly at 70% or 80% off though.

A watch is not overpriced if the entire production or most of it will sell at list price.  Some buyers will pay list price for a watch and others will not buy without a discount, that's just the way it is.

Some buyers believe list price is Ok because it makes the item seem to be more valuable (to them) while others will not pay list price because the watch is not worth as much as list price (to them).

 

I remember reading on one of the watch forums a few years ago about a guy who had his mind set to buy an omega SMP and had found one at an AD for $1700.  He was going to buy it the next day.

That evening he and his wife went to Costco and while the wife was shopping for groceries, the guy went to look at watches and found a new in box omega smp for $1350.

Which one did he buy?

The one for $1700 because he said the lower price at Cosco tarnished his image of the SMP.

The minute he sized the bracelet and put the watch on...then he owned a $1000 watch no matter how much he paid.

　

What Watch Did James Bond Wear?

Dr. No……………………………………......……..Rolex Submariner
From Russia With Love ……………...….Rolex Submariner
Goldfinger.………………………………………..Rolex Submariner
You Only Live Twice ……………………….Rolex Submariner
Thunderball ……………………………...…....Rolex Submariner and Brietling
On Her Majesty's Secret Service..…Rolex Submariner and Rolex Chronograph
Diamonds Are Forever …………………..No watch seen
The Man With the Golden Gun ……..Rolex Submariner
Live & Let Die ………………………………….Rolex Submariner and Pulsar
The Spy Who Loved Me ………………..Seiko
For Your Eyes Only ………………………..Seiko
Octopussy …………………………………..….Seiko

A View to a Kill ………………………..……. Seiko
The Living Daylights ………………..…..Rolex Submariner
License to Kill …………………………… ...Rolex Submariner
Goldeneye …………………………………...Omega Seamaster Professional
Tomorrow Never Dies ………………..Omega Seamaster Professional
The World is Not Enough …………..Omega Seamaster Professional
Die Another Day ………………………....Omega Seamaster Professional
Casino Royale……………………………...Omega Planet Ocean and Omega Seamaster Pofessional
Quantum of Solace……………… …….Omega Planet Ocean

 

 

STAINLESS SUBMARINER DATE
USA retail prices
1973 $385 
1975 $470
1977 $585
1978 $875
1980 $950
1982 $1175
1984 $1325
1986 $1575
1988 $1975
1989 $2500
1992 $2850
1996 $3350
2004 $4250
2005 $4525
2006 $5175
2008 $5850
2009 $6000
2010 $7250
2010 $7375
2012 $8500

2019 $8550

2020 $8950
8.3% AVG INCREASE PER YEAR

Price projections based on 8.3% annual increase...
2025 $24388   (!!)
2030 $36335  (!!!)

 

T? or F?

Not everyone will stare at your Rolex with envy.  I'd worry more about  spontaneous human combustion than watch envy.

 

Rolex watch:  It takes a year to make one.

Rolex buyer:  There is one born every minute.

 

History lesson:

The two most important events in all of human history were the invention of beer and the invention of the wheel.

Once beer was discovered, it required grain and that was the beginning of agriculture.

Neither the glass bottle nor aluminum can had been invented yet, so early humans stayed close to the brewery.

That's how villages were formed.

The wheel was invented for humans to get to the beer if they did not live close to the brewery.

And there you have it.

　

Comments welcomed.

Is anyone out there?

[Nanuq]

[Ronin]

GOLD!!!! ...or should I sal GILT 🙂

[alligoat]

This is more like trivia overload!

[automatico]

"This is more like trivia overload!"

 

Yeah.  I can't carry it around in my head so I keep notes.    

I used to remember a bunch of Yamaha and Suzuki part numbers so I would not have to look them up.  That was in the 1980s and I still have part number flashbacks now and then.  

 

I have quite a bit of watch trivia and I'll put more up later.

[alligoat]

You might want to check your math on the price increases of the subs. I figure in 2025 that the sub will be worth $13,334.

And at 8.3% increase it takes around 8.67 years to double- that's called the rule of 72!

[automatico]

"You might want to check your math on the price increases of the subs. I figure in 2025 that the sub will be worth $13,334.

And at 8.3% increase it takes around 8.67 years to double- that's called the rule of 72!"

 

Ah yes, the rule of 72.

I got the figgers off a genuine rolex forum. 

[Nanuq]

Yes, but don't forget to multiply by Crso   the Coefficient of Rare Shiny Objects.  Typical values for this coefficient range from +1.0 to +20.0 and can alter your perceived value dramatically.

[pezzy]

are any of the swiss fakes still out and about? that is some great provenance.

[automatico]

"are any of the swiss fakes still out and about? that is some great provenance."

 

I never saw any figures on how many got out.  They may have disappeared into the population of genuine gold Daytonas. 

The article mentions 250 and that 'much more were produced' so no telling how many actually escaped...another 'rolex secret'. 

[Nanuq]

The "Swiss Fakes" were the product of small woodland people that snuck into the factory just before closing and hid themselves.  Then on the stroke of midnight they sprang into action, whistling while they worked.   

 

Over the course of many months they made quite a few, but remain tight lipped to this day about actual numbers.  I visited one of the ringleaders to see if I could coax him into a chat ... he was (cough) less than forthcoming.

 

 

 

[jmb]

You shoulda took your buddy, Yogi, with you... 😜

[Nanuq]

 

 

 

[jmb]

Yeah, that's what I'm talkin' about!  With him along I doubt you gotta worry about anybody clamming up!

[Nanuq]

That’s Charlie Vandergaw from up the Yentna, he’s got dozens of bears like that hanging around and they all get along fine.

[Timelord]

On 8 February 2020 at 5:52 AM, automatico said:

 

Rolex USA

 

Will not service 1530/1560.

 

Rolex Geneva

Will not service 1530/1560.

Is anyone out there?

 

What about Rolex -everywhere else?  One would think that their rules are globally uniform!

 

The 1560?  Isn't that the one in the presidential day /date model?   They are in the 18k gold  pieces that every posh dreamer creams over!

 

I was about to bring one that belongs to an estate of a dear friend of.mine for a service and you have saved me from the grief of hearing that they are heading towards the gold smelters!   Worst gold investment I have ever heard of!

[Timelord]

1 hour ago, Timelord said:

 

What about Rolex -everywhere else?  One would think that their rules are globally uniform!

 

The 1560?  Isn't that the one in the presidential day /date model?   They are in the 18k gold  pieces that every posh dreamer creams over!

 

I was about to bring one that belongs to an estate of a dear friend of.mine for a service and you have saved me from the grief of hearing that they are heading towards the gold smelters!   Worst gold investment I have ever heard of!

Oops,  I got my knickers in a knot.  I stand to be corrected!  I usually get the 1530 and the 1556 (which is the correct caliber in the presidential) confused as they are so similar !!  Old age is really getting to me 

 

great post BTW Automatico!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Timelord

[automatico]

"What about Rolex -everywhere else?  One would think that their rules are globally uniform!"

 

I would guess it depends on what is needed for the watch.  The 1560 is the same as the 1570 except for a few escapement parts and if none of these parts are needed, most shops that work on vintage rlx will probably take them in.

 

The first DD had the cal 1055 (1030 base).  I would guess many calendar parts are hard to find by now.  Basically a DD 1030.

The first generation of DD watches with 15xx movements had cal 1555 (1530 base) and it ran at 18000 bph.  Basically a DD 1560.

The second generation with 15xx type movement was the cal 1556 and it ran at 19800 bph.  Basically a DD 1570.

Around 1972 most if not all DD were 'hack' movements. 

 

If you find a 15xx movement with no calendar parts and need to know what it is:

Non chronometer movements usually do not have a serial number (no guarantees with rlx). 

No date movement serial numbers do not have a letter.

Date only movement serial numbers start with D.

Day Date movement serial numbers start with DD.

Milgauss cal 1580 movement serial numbers start with M.  Mg also has a special antimagnetic escapement.

[Serafino]

Great stuff!  I read somewhere that 15XX with date comes in different shapes of spacer or date configurations, does this seem right?  Something about one being 'cone' shaped and the other not?

[automatico]

The 16xx DJ models fall off the outer edge at an angle because of the 'pie pan' dial, 15xx etc spacers have squared off edges.

Most are .9mm thick and the GMT spacer is 1.0mm thick.  If you find one for a GMT at a low price, grab it because they are hard to find and selling high.

 

When looking for rolex parts, don't get in a Rush.  Ha!

[Serafino]

Now I really need to know the stem height for these different variants.  Not that I'd pay for a GMT variant in the normal range, and not that I'm planning to buy a 157X in the foreseeable, but just because I never have been able to find it out.  I suppose since you've found a 3035 will fit in a 1575 case, that it's 2.15 mm, so then I guess the GMT is 2.25?  Also I'm having trouble fitting this together with 1570 o/a height of 5.75 mm and 1575 of 6.3 mm (I think I picked those figures up at the ra nfft site.)?  I must be missing something somewhere.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Serafino