how do you safely work on a watch with a radium dial?

[Timelord]

Greetings fellow members,

 

I am not sure how many of you who like the older style Tudors and Rolex ( or any vintage watch equipped with a  dial composed of radium applied lume)  work on your own watch?  

 

I see that the radium on these timepieces no longer lumens like it was designed to be, however, the radium is still as deadly as the first day it was painted on, when considering it's half life is beyond ours., 

 

Even though we have all been warned  to be careful not to breathe the radium dust that falls off the numerals or indices, when dismantling these tickers, but how do you deal with any dust that we cannot see that falls into the movement and then into our cleaning machine and anywhere else for that matter?. I have also read that some even spray a lacquer of clear over the dials to trap in the radium, yet radium will burn through it just the same!  

 

It is often argued on many other webpages that as long as the radium dial is covered with the front crystal etc etc, you are safe.  I do not necessarily agree with this as dust will always be present and falling off the dial as the numerals deteriorates. For example dust can still fall out when pulling out the crown stem which although microscopic, this is still an issue as any amount is always hazardous.  Maybe I am being somewhat nutty here, but I do feel for those professional watchmakers who have dealt with this in the past and those that continue to do so, especially with those very very expensive timepieces that still fetch over the 5 digit premiums. 

[horologist]

That is a damn good question which I notice is very overlooked amongst this trade and hobby!!!!!

 

I am glad someone has asked this because my best and most honest watchmaker died from Lung cancer at the age of 51 and his widow always blamed it on radium because when he was an apprentice, his mission was to scrape off radium off dials back in the late 1970s early 1980-s.  He did it daily and when he worked for the same local watch service house, he was given the task for doing this amongst other watchmakers.  Other watchmakers always got him to open old pocket watches and pre war watches that were full of radium.  He was always exposed to radium dust for some 15 years.  He also worked on those old German bedside clocks which were cased in a fancy glass and were wound from the back.  Horrible things in my opinion!!!!. 

 

Yes I agree that they can be safe as long as they are sealed, but these things are never really 100 % sealed just like most watches are never 100% water proof . Good point you make about when pulling out the stem.  That cannot be a 100 % seal !!!!!

 

Interestingly,  a very overlooked hazard for professional watchmakers.  Sorry I couldn't answer your question, but I had to put in my two cents worth considering this is such an overlooked  subject

 

 

[automatico]

This is a Chicken Little answer but I simply stopped taking them apart.  I still have a few radium lume watches and I doubt many of of them are worth very much now.  There are exceptions of course but since I do not wear them I figure they are just fine stored out in the garage and if someone wants one as/is they can have it for a 'hot' price.

 

I bought a cheap 'GMC 320 Plus' Geiger counter a while back and it took off ticking a lot more than normal around the work area where I keep a lot of watchjunk so I started zeroing in on the source.  It was an old Tip Top Jr. pin lever wristwatch from the late 1920s/early 1930s and it was still Hot!  It had been about 3 feet from where I work for 20+ years in a shadowbox with some old character watches.  Now it is on another wall in the same room and the counter is showing a normal reading where I work but if I move the counter close to the Tip Top it still goes off.

 

If I was cleaning a movement from a watch with radium hands that had been shedding lume material I would throw the cleaner and rinse away when it was done.  The question is how do you dispose the cleaner/rinse from the movement and the dust from a radium dial and where do you take it?  I do not know. 

Tritium is bad enough but radium would (legally) be a problem to dispose of. 

Radium is serious stuff.

Nuff said.  

 

 

Otoh here's what really keeps me up at night:

You can bet there are Forty Four Fat Feds in extra, extra large shielded hazmat suits riding around eating donuts (and coffee) in lead lined black SUVs just waiting to quarantine your property, beat you down, lock you up, and fine you $214 million if they can find just one loose nanoparticle of radium. 

But it's your lucky day! 

 

Here is what they found instead:

          Non radioactive!  Gluten free!

 

Meanwhile Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in Bezerkley CA and the Nuke Weapons Design Lab at Los Alamos NM glow happily in the dark  and none of the 44 Fat Feds noticed 'cause their pointy heads are always buried in Dunkin' donut boxes.

 

It's a strange world out there, I'll give you that, but you will be Ok if you just follow the Official US Gummit Rules.  (They changed it from US Government to US Gummit because everything is always Gummed Up in Red Tape...GURT for short.)

Official Rule # 1...Always Heed Words Of Caution.

 

Of course some Fed Fool pressed it anyway. 

Now there ain't no need for Official Rule # 2.

 

So...we made up some new rules:

1...Remember the Alamos.  (in NM, not the one in TX, it's still there)

2...Vote for Super Luminova in 2020.  No Radical Radium.

3...You can no longer believe it all but you can believe:

A...One half of what you see with your own two eyeballs.

B...One third of what you hear with your own two ears.

C...One fourth of what you feel with your own two hands (depending on lights ON or lights OFF).  

Disclaimer for A and B:  If it is on CNN, it drops to 10%.

Over and Out.  

 

 

Pin lever Pocket Bens and Tip Tops were 'poor boy' watches.

Here is what a Tip Top Jr. looks like:  

     Gluten free!

Radium dial Tip Top Jr. from Etsy.

 

      No Calories!

Radium dial Westclox Pocket Ben from Etsy.

 

[Ronin]

A friend is chemical engineer, and I asked this question a few years ago.  The answer went something like this:  Radium half-lives every 25 years vs Tritium which IIRC is 12.5.  Depending on how much lume is used (A lot in Pocket Watches) and how old it is, is what matters.  For example a Radium "Hand Set" from a 1955 Sub would be on it's 3rd half-life, with it's 4th coming up in 2030... Given it is a Hand Set, the amount is small, and is probably no worse than handling Asbestos (or Vintage Brake Pad's!). 

 

I think treating OLD Radium like Asbestos would be a good analog.  It is generally harmless unless ingested or inhaled.  Don't stir it up.  If it is sealed in the watch, there is otherwise not enough ionizing power to hurt you. The scatter back Body Scanners at the Airport are probably worse for your health or a chest X-Ray...

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Ronin

[automatico]

From:

https://wahawatches.com/radium-lume-really-dangerous/#:~:text=Radium has a half-life of 1600 years. That,types of radiation%3B alpha radiation and gamma radiation.

 

"Radium has a half-life of 1600 years.  That means that the old radium on your watch dial and in the hands doesn’t glow anymore, but it’s still radioactive.  It emits two types of radiation; alpha radiation and gamma radiation."

 

 

[Ronin]

Wow! Clearly my buddy is not as well informed as he thought-- 1600 years! 

[horologist]

17 hours ago, automatico said:

From:

https://wahawatches.com/radium-lume-really-dangerous/#:~:text=Radium has a half-life of 1600 years. That,types of radiation%3B alpha radiation and gamma radiation.

 

"Radium has a half-life of 1600 years.  That means that the old radium on your watch dial and in the hands doesn’t glow anymore, but it’s still radioactive.  It emits two types of radiation; alpha radiation and gamma radiation."

 

 

Good one!   Thanks for posting this link!  I recall reading it recently, but somehow I could  not find it in my browser history,

Just goes to show that even watchmaking has its health hazards no different from those working in asbestos removal or those working in mines! 

Imagine paying out of your teeth for a James Bond Rolex, Milsub, or comex in the 4 or 5 digit price tag and have something very nasty brewing inside?

 

This post has killed my buzz as I have a 1970 mint condition presidential being one of my grail watches, but now I am not so sure if I am still in love with it!  Feels like My  high school sweetheart has just cuckolded me,!  

[automatico]

"This post has killed my buzz as I have a 1970 mint condition presidential being one of my grail watches, but now I am not so sure if I am still in love with it!"

 

Close as I ever got to a vintage slow set Prez is a movement.  A gold and diamond buyer friend bought an 1803 for a few hundred bucks, scrapped the case/bracelet, and sold the movement to me.  I remember him saying he was surprised that the case and bracelet were so light. 

The inside of the cases are hogged out at the factory to save gold and the bracelet links were hollow back then.  Cheaply made luxury at a high price...powered by hype and slick advertising.

 

Bulova watches had the most gold in their cases in the 1950s/1960s/1970s in my experience.  Many high priced swiss 'luxury' watches had onion skin cases.   

Two vintage Bulovas I have held on to for years are a matching pair of 1950s Beau Brummels...one 14k yellow gold auto with diamond dial and one 14k white gold auto with diamond dial.

 

Mine are similar to this one:

    From mybulova.com

 

https://mybulova.com/watches/1958-beau-brummel-11045

 

More Beau Brummel info:

https://www.watchophilia.com/general-information/bulova-beau-brummell-series/

[jackflash]

Use of Radium stopped in the 1960s. Here’s my vintage re-lumed, non radioactive, WWW Timor.

During a professional service I asked the watchmaker to remove all the old lume. I then re-lumed it myself. Still wore a mask and gloves while doing so though just in case.

[horologist]

This has been an interesting and very informative thread!   I guess that from the information that is available, timepieces made circa 1963 are either a hit or a miss as to which had radium and which had tritium!  Some had a small “T” on the very bottom of the dial next to “Swiss“to indicate tritium, but not all dials were marked, so you need to take extreme care when decasing on of these!   Then again microscopic dust from the Radium lume depositing anywhere to your movement and contaminating your equipment is even more off a concern!

 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by horologist

[jimcon11]

That WWW Timor is beautiful, nice work on the relume.

 

One common practice I've seen is to remove radium lume under running water, supposedly that way any loose particles get swept away and become someone else's problem I guess.  I would be worried about running a valuable 70 year old dial under running water though.

 

You always hear that radium lume doesn't glow anymore because the phosphorescent zinc sulfide component has broken down. I wonder if it's possible to recoat lume plots with some kind of zinc sulfide mixture, preferably clear, to make them glow again. I don't know if it would work since this new coating isn't actually mixed with the radium, just sitting on top. But if you have to have radium on your dial it would at least be cool to get the full benefit along with the hazard.

 

I'm wondering what to do with my 7909... the mutant green oblongs are pretty but it's a wearer so some glow would be nice..

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by jimcon11

[JSebWC]

This is an interesting topic and one that has been clearly overlooked by the watch community   It would be interesting to know what watchmakers do with all this radium lume dust and how they treat it .  I would like to think that when they do a relume they are wearing ppe and doing it over a vent hood however that just means that the particles are trapped in the filters or ducting .   a little can go a long way in this case   I think this topic has been swept under the rug so that not to scare off the potential buyers of vintage watches...if it was considered and investigated  I think more people would reconsider vintage watch collecting which would be bad for business.....

[jimcon11]

On 8/2/2020 at 11:08 AM, JSebWC said:

I think this topic has been swept under the rug so that not to scare off the potential buyers of vintage watches...if it was considered and investigated  I think more people would reconsider vintage watch collecting which would be bad for business.....

 

As far as I know there isn't evidence of even a single person being harmed by their radium watch, anywhere in history. That's kind of astounding. All we have is some fairly alarming dosage math that doesn't seem to square with real world experience. Maybe because a full-body dose as outlined in the safety data is a lot more deleterious than a point source mainly on the wrist. Or maybe people have been affected and it's just impossible to single out radium as the cause of some metastatic cancer. If that's the case, It would take huge advances in how well we understand cancer for a causal link to be established.

 

For now, it seems like the general precautions established long ago have done a good job at keeping people out of danger, so I'm not going to worry. It would be great if there was a second radium panic though, it might make some of my favorite watches actually attainable.

[ceejay]

Attached is a research article on the hazards present with radium dials. 

 

 

Crockett_Robin_E_2012_Radium_dial_watches_a_potentially_hazardous_legacy.docx.pdf

[Timelord]

20 hours ago, ceejay said:

Attached is a research article on the hazards present with radium dials. 

 

 

Crockett_Robin_E_2012_Radium_dial_watches_a_potentially_hazardous_legacy.docx.pdfUnavailable

thank you !!!   Great link & academically written!   Just what I had suspected all along!   Radium took the life of it’s discoverer Mari Curie after having worked with it !  
 

I am more cautious now “IF”and when opening one of these watches for working on!  

[HaydenM]

The radium decay chain is almost entirely alpha emission, so not really any issue as long as it stays outside of your body. Try not to breathe anything in. There may be tiny amounts that get to you but the tiny amounts that get out of the crown of your watch isn't going to do anything in reality. If you've had a glass of scotch or a cigarette in your life you're probably at higher risk. Absolutely a different story if you are constantly working on the things of course.

Also something to be remembered with half lives. A chemical with a long half life is undergoing fewer atomic decays emitting radiation than an element with a short half life (per any unit of time), which will sooner be non-radioactive but will be pumping out a greater deal of radiation in the time to get there.