Whitening Indices?

[e30m3]

Yeah you read that right. Zillions of ways to age a dial, but how about un-aging? I got a Vietnam dial that looks great but the indices are just too brown. Anyone have any experience with this? I was debating diluting some white paint and going for it with oilers...

[RickFlorida]

I'm in the same boat.  Got a Vietnam dial and I'm just learning more that it's not very accurate.   I looked into having the dial reprinted and lumed white but only found a well known dial restorer in Poland so far.  He quoted 350.  Is there anyone in America that refinished matte dials and relumes?  Shipping from Eastern Europe took 3 months last time I bought something 

[freddy333]

Before doing anything, I would post good clear pics of said dials. You may be fretting over nothing, or the pics might inspire the right solution.

 

In general, the idea is to research thoroughly (& ask questions) BEFORE hitting the buy button. As you have seen, it saves a bit of buyer's remorse later on.

[automatico]

"Before doing anything, I would post good clear pics of said dials.  You may be fretting over nothing, or the pics might inspire the right solution."

 

Very good advice.

 

The dial markers on my 'shortcut 1655' seemed to be a little too dark. 

So I fixed it.

How?

By looking at pictures of 1655 watches until I found a few just like mine.

I can only hope they were genuine and not replickas.

 

I understand colors may be off a little on 'net pics but I'm willing to be at peace with the dial now.

[RickFlorida]

If I get a chance I suppose I can post a picture but it isn't just the plots that I want whiter.   When I purchased my Vietnam Dial, the guy in Ho Chi Minh let me pick out my dial from his many dials by whatsapp images.  Which was great and I got to pick out what I wanted. But when I got the dial in hand and installed in my watch, I now realize the matte black is much too grey and not black compared to just about any 5513 dial.  I know we can fret over little things and get obsessive in this rabbit hole of looking for perfection.  But I just think my dial is too grey and the well known refinisher in Poland told me he can make the dial more accurate in addition to using quality new lume.   I know here in America, we have crap loads of dial makers who will make those datejust diamond dials jobs all day long but I don't see any American places online that reprint matte dials and hand lume them.  Do they not advertise like the crap tone of datejust or president diamond dial guys?

Edited April 9, 2021 by RickFlorida

[e30m3]

12 hours ago, freddy333 said:

Before doing anything, I would post good clear pics of said dials. You may be fretting over nothing, or the pics might inspire the right solution.

 

In general, the idea is to research thoroughly (& ask questions) BEFORE hitting the buy button. As you have seen, it saves a bit of buyer's remorse later on.

 

Here we go. It's for a white 1680 - in my experience, the real ones just don't tan this much. Not yet, anyway (I know some of the red subs have). It appears slightly yellow in these photos - that's more of a flat tan in person.

 

I want something more like the attached screenshot.

 

[P4GTR]

It doesn't look bad. But that said I understand where you're coming from. All of the rep dials are too dark. Hell the latest BP vintage are a dark burnt orange.

 

After so many years of progress it seems like things took a huge step back. Can't even get a basic sub or vintage sub or any of the common pam models anymore.

 

Here's a thought... Order a white non patina version. By the time it arrives via 4PX it will be vintage and the month or two of shipping (for $35) inside a container ship at 200 degrees will provide for a perfect patina lume.

[Nanuq]

You might as well go big, or go home.  Right?

 

Get some Sof Scrub kitchen sink liquid cleanser.  It's a thick viscous liquid.  Get some Q-tips and practice dipping the Q-tip and then making dots on a piece of paper until you can control your dot size.

 

Now put a dot of Sof Scrub on one index, covering it from side to side.  Count to 8, or 10 if you're feeling brave.  Now rinse the dial with a TON of water to get the cleanser off.  It's potent and it works fast.

 

Happy?  Do it some more.  And post some pics!

 

[e30m3]

12 minutes ago, Nanuq said:

You might as well go big, or go home.  Right?

 

Get some Sof Scrub kitchen sink liquid cleanser.  It's a thick viscous liquid.  Get some Q-tips and practice dipping the Q-tip and then making dots on a piece of paper until you can control your dot size.

 

Now put a dot of Sof Scrub on one index, covering it from side to side.  Count to 8, or 10 if you're feeling brave.  Now rinse the dial with a TON of water to get the cleanser off.  It's potent and it works fast.

 

Happy?  Do it some more.  And post some pics!

 

Seems you're a braver man than I. Have you done this? Any results pics?

[Nanuq]

I haven't done it on a dial but there's no reason it won't work.  That's some potent bleach.  Put a drop in a stained porcelain sink and within a couple minutes it's pure white.  Amazing.  

 

I did use it on my SD43 fiftieth anniversary Sea Dweller, the numerals on the ceramic insert got dingy grey so I filled them with Sof Scrub and let it sit awhile.  It sparkled like a Hollywood celebrity's teeth straight from the dentist.

 

[e30m3]

That's a serious sparkle...

 

Alright I'm going to take the weekend to build myself up to this endeavor. If I screw things up horribly I will list it fs as a custom "Nanuq modded dial." 😁

[freddy333]

12 hours ago, e30m3 said:

 

Here we go. It's for a white 1680 - in my experience, the real ones just don't tan this much. Not yet, anyway (I know some of the red subs have). It appears slightly yellow in these photos - that's more of a flat tan in person.

 

 

 

Actually, the real dials DO "tan" that much, and more. But, were it mine, I would add a few tiny dark spots to two or three of the indices & then spray a light coating of matte varnish over the entire dial. Just enough to give the dial an ever-so slightly yellowed/aged appearance (call it patina). Then, find some matching hands. Done correctly, I doubt anyone but a hard-core collector would spot the deception from an arm's length away, which is my benchmark for success.

 

Gen:

 

Gen:

 

You should also peruse this old thread.

 

 

[e30m3]

35 minutes ago, freddy333 said:

 

Actually, the real dials DO "tan" that much, and more. But, were it mine, I would add a few tiny dark spots to two or three of the indices & then spray a light coating of matte varnish over the entire dial. Just enough to give the dial an ever-so slightly yellowed/aged appearance (call it patina). Then, find some matching hands. Done correctly, I doubt anyone but a hard-core collector would spot the deception from an arm's length away, which is my benchmark for success.

 

Gen:

 

Gen:

 

You should also peruse this old thread.

 

 

Thanks for the pictures and the comments. I'm aware the Reds tan that much (i noted the fact in my original post), and I note that the white dial you attached has tanned. I'd be fine with that level of tanning. To my eyes, there's a significant color difference even between your attached pic and my dial - but that's the beauty of this hobby, to each their own!

 

 

In any case, I wasn't meaning to debate whether or not the dial would pass (I'm sure there are gens that are brown!) -- for this particular build, I'm going for more of a "it's been hanging in the sock drawer" look than an "it's been used as intended for four decades" one. Thus, I'm looking for that early-onset creamy white. And so we'll break out the bleach this weekend. If it works, great! And if it doesn't we'll all have something to laugh about.

 

Out of curiosity - method of choice for said "dark spots?" It's something I've been meaning to try on the "5513."

 

Edit - definitely doing the Krylon matte finish when it's done, thanks for that. May even help conceal whatever I botch with the bleach!

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by e30m3

[RickFlorida]

8 hours ago, P4GTR said:

 

Here's a thought... Order a white non patina version. By the time it arrives via 4PX it will be vintage and the month or two of shipping (for $35) inside a container ship at 200 degrees will provide for a perfect patina lume.

I think it's harder to get white Vietnam lumed 5513 or 1680 dials than you think.  At least the guy I use from Ho Chi Minh only has various shades of yellow or brown.   I specifically asked him for a white 5513 lumed dial and he said he has none.  And when you look on eBay, all of the Vietnam dials are without white Lume as well. 

[curiousbunny]

On 4/8/2021 at 7:38 PM, RickFlorida said:

I'm in the same boat.  Got a Vietnam dial and I'm just learning more that it's not very accurate.   I looked into having the dial reprinted and lumed white but only found a well known dial restorer in Poland so far.  He quoted 350.  Is there anyone in America that refinished matte dials and relumes?  Shipping from Eastern Europe took 3 months last time I bought something 

 

Did he say 350 euro? For a relume? In Poland? That's like american asking for $850

[RickFlorida]

13 hours ago, curiousbunny said:

 

Did he say 350 euro? For a relume? In Poland? That's like american asking for $850

Luckily, he adjusted it to U.S. dollars for me knowing where I am and specifically said 350 U.S. Dollars.  It's Renowacja company Poland. I heard from watchmakers they are recommended. It's not just relume. He said he would reprint the dial to make it more accurate and black, and then lume it better.  I'm not sure if it's worth it though since it's just a vietnam dial so with 185.00 already in it, then plus 350 to make it better...... Is it crazy to do it?   On the other hand, a genuine 5513 dial is like 1100 dollars now.  So even at 500 total, a nice looking dial for my genuine 1520 Rolex movement is not crazy.

 

 

 

I just don't see any white looking Vietnam or other source 5513 dials for genuine rolex movements.

Edited April 12, 2021 by RickFlorida

[freddy333]

On 4/9/2021 at 9:44 PM, e30m3 said:

And so we'll break out the bleach this weekend. If it works, great! And if it doesn't we'll all have something to laugh about.

Out of curiosity - method of choice for said "dark spots?" It's something I've been meaning to try on the "5513."

Edit - definitely doing the Krylon matte finish when it's done, thanks for that. May even help conceal whatever I botch with the bleach!

 

Re bleach: In my experience, the bleach will dissolve the lume (and dial paint). So, tread lightly.

 

Re dark spots: Try a dirty pencil eraser (graphite) or small bits of iodine to darken & break up the consistency of lume color a bit. It is that tan consistency that is the give-away, not the color itself. Apply VERY sparingly. Consider it seasoning, not the main course. Too much & it will look fake.
Bonus points: Rub a small amount of brown shoe polish onto the center of the dial around the hand-hole. Not so much that you SEE brown, but so that it looks like the original black dial paint is fading to "tropical". Done correctly, it can give the dial quite a nice patina.

[Ronin]

Don’t use bleach! As Freddy said. 
 

If you are hell bent on lightening it you can try Denture Cleaner or go to a beauty supply store and get creamy peroxide. Although a vintage computer trick Google Retro-Brighting. Maybe a baking-soda paste also. 

[curiousbunny]

3 hours ago, RickFlorida said:

Luckily, he adjusted it to U.S. dollars for me knowing where I am and specifically said 350 U.S. Dollars.  It's Renowacja company Poland. I heard from watchmakers they are recommended. It's not just relume. He said he would reprint the dial to make it more accurate and black, and then lume it better.  I'm not sure if it's worth it though since it's just a vietnam dial so with 185.00 already in it, then plus 350 to make it better...... Is it crazy to do it?   On the other hand, a genuine 5513 dial is like 1100 dollars now.  So even at 500 total, a nice looking dial for my genuine 1520 Rolex movement is not crazy.

 

 

 

I just don't see any white looking Vietnam or other source 5513 dials for genuine rolex movements.

Yours won't nearly have the same resale value. Are they atleast superluminova? You can purchase them on ebay now.

 

Watchlume brand is cheaper, but not sure you'll like it. It's trusted on watchuseek.

Edited April 12, 2021 by curiousbunny

[freddy333]

1 hour ago, curiousbunny said:

Watchlume brand is cheaper, but not sure you'll like it. It's trusted on watchuseek.

 

I would avoid modern lume on a vintage watch. It SHOUTS fake!
While some vintage watches may have some glow left, none glow brightly 50+ years after they left the factory. When working on a vintage project, especially a Rolex sports watch, it is best to opt for no glow. It may not be as functional in the dark, but it will have more credibility in the light. Trust me on this.

 

Oh & here is a tip I learned many years ago the hard way - ignore the urge to try to replicate the minty 'left in the sock drawer' or 'never worn' look. I spent many years trying, unsuccessfully, to pull this off & never came close. Any vintage piece that looks new/unworn (regardless of the excuse) will engender suspicion. On the other hand, any watch that generally looks old overall can cover a few minor sins. Since no franken or rep is perfect, anything that reduces the likelihood of suspicious glances is a good thing. I know how tough it is to take a file or nail to that brand new (very expensive) MQ dial or Phong case, but once what I am saying sinks in & you are able to change your mindset, it all clicks into place. Once I realized this truism, life became much, much simpler, & vintage Rolex project watches appeared much more plausible.

[RickFlorida]

Good point that we probably not use brand new glowing lume on vintage dial. But in my particular case, what I really don't like about my Vietname 5513 dials is that in person, it is a little more blue or grey than black.   This is something I don't think I can fix without it being reprinted or just getting a new dial.   I don't think spraying matte varnish will make it look more black, correct?

[freddy333]

9 hours ago, RickFlorida said:

what I really don't like about my Vietname 5513 dials is that in person, it is a little more blue or grey than black.   This is something I don't think I can fix without it being reprinted or just getting a new dial.   I don't think spraying matte varnish will make it look more black, correct?

Hard to tell without seeing the dial. Can you post a good, clear pic?

[RickFlorida]

11 hours ago, freddy333 said:

Hard to tell without seeing the dial. Can you post a good, clear pic?

Thank you for asking. Here is my vietnam dial with minute and hour hands it came with. I believe my second hand is original or at the very least, it's an older replacement of some type. When the local watchmaker serviced my 1520, he said the second hand they sent me was wrong.  So he gave me this second hand and kept the vietname second hand that didn't fit. Perhaps he sent me a Tudor/ETA second hand? So anyways, I got this older looking second hand so it would be pretty awesome if my watchmaker gave me an original second hand when he serviced my watch. But back to the problem..... I don't think you can tell from this photo or not but in direct light, you can tell that my dial is a little blue or grey and not black enough.  It really bothers me.  I think the easiest solution is to just get a different vietnam dial that looks more black. But since I really like the mk3 lollipop matte dial (the lume plots are a little bigger), I thought I should ask about reprinting and then having it relumed like mk3 lollipop dial.

Edited April 16, 2021 by RickFlorida

[freddy333]

A good, clear pic taken outside at dusk (not in the dark) or in shade would be better, but I do not see anything here that, assuming the watch appears otherwise legit (i.e., it is not a brand-new looking 40 year-old Sub, etc.), would cause me to question the watch from an arm's length away (my benchmark). I would stop worrying about it & just enjoy it.....until/unless you come across a gen dial/handset (& have the cash to purchase).

[Ronin]

Yeah, that looks fine to mine. Not sickly yellow, or otherwise.  The blue fade is not uncommon depending on how the black paint was derived. I have a bezel insert from a 1665 that faded to an awesome blue from black.  Conversely they fade toward brown.

 

I wouldn’t overthink this one.