Andrew & Josh's Response To The Little White Lies Thread...

[Craytonic]

Can we just agree that the B&R project was not exactly handled properly and move on? I'm sure the guys will know that they are being watched, and I'm sure we won't see this kind of thing again.

I will, for one, continue to do business with these guys as previous to this incident they have provided nothing but top quality service by all accounts!

I think all people want is an apology and a promise to be straight forward - not word games about "ETA" and "superlume"

[tvt]

Man am I sick of this topic... now we have not one but TWO massive threads to slog through.

The facts are simple:

The original post Pug made is absolutley valid and pointed out undeniable truth.

Some members agree, others disagree, atthis point no amount of continued debate will change anyone's minds.

The dealers were were waiting to respond have responded, we can all draw our own conclusions.

A copy of an ETA movement is NOT an ETA movement. Mineral glass is NOT saphire, dim barley cloing hads are NOT Superlume.

Aside form that it is all just a dog chasing his tail at this point.

[mhinagoya]

Well Gentlemen;

Pugwash blew the whistle. TTK offered a remedy.

Pugwash has taken a bit of a pasting here and there for blowing the whistle (he didn't deserve it).

TTK's remedy (good as it may be) has been largely ignored.

Admins are watching this thread, as it is the only way they have of assessing the sense of 'right' that the membership holds. This is establishing a facet of 'morality' or 'acceptible behavior' within this community.

You are setting the standards here and you are doing it right now. Be plain and keep it simple. Send the message to the Admins that you want them to get.

Is yelling "Shame on you" enough?

Do you want to establish a three strike rule?

Do you wish this would just blow over and be forgotten?

Do you want these sellers run out of town on a rail?

Do you simply not care one way or the other?

Be plain and of few words. It will make life simpler for everyone.

Bill.

[Pugwash]

Can we just agree that the B&R project was not exactly handled properly and move on? I'm sure the guys will know that they are being watched, and I'm sure we won't see this kind of thing again.

We could apart from the fact it was deliberately not handled properly and the excuse given seems like an apology for being caught.

Own your [censored]ups, it's basic good business behaviour.

[Pugwash]

I’m guessing that the description was probably a spin created by the supplier (another bloody salesman in the chain ) in order to sell them to the dealers, who, in turn use the description--given to them--to sell to their buyers, and so on.

Normally, I'd be willing to meet you halfway on this one apart from the simple fact everyone seems to be forgetting: This watch was a Trusty/Josh exclusive. They bought the genuine B&R and commissioned this replica. They were in control of the project from the beginning to the end and they know exactly what went in it.

This isn't their first [censored]-up, it's the first example of how they would do business if they could manage every part of the chain, and it scares me.

[V]

We could apart from the fact it was deliberately not handled properly and the excuse given seems like an apology for being caught.

I don't understand what else you want from them to do? I start thinking that after all you 'may' have an agenda behind your initial post which i thought was very good of you posting it.

They replied now and they have changed their description..

Now the only thing that is left is what?

Their promess that they won't do it again?

Do you think we should spank them in the hand like the old time teachers?

Or maybe ban them from the forum?

In the 'Little white lies' topic all you people wanted to do was from them to reply.. It was a right request. Now they replied.. You are not happy with the reply? Fair enough.. We have to move on though.. we cannot treat them as scammers ... next time buyer ask every details like you were buying from photobucket.. and if you don't get what you expected ask for refund.

I think trying to present Joshua and Andrew as scams is not fair..

I haven't seen you for example bashing PresciousTime for promessing SOLID GOLD subs and at the end delivering triple wraped

[crystalcranium]

I belive that this movement was the subject of some scrutiny from Ziggy the other day and it was pointed out at that time that ETA tend to use removeable balence spring posts as opposed to the fixed ones fitted in the above linked watch, which could possibley be an ETA base plate with asian works above it.

Correct...this is a Frakenmovement...an ETA baseplate and god knows what stacked onto it.

Lots of mental masturbation going on here. I agree with the bard that the 2 threads have served their primary purpose and that we will be very attentive to subsequent advertising claims and will ask questions first. To the naieve buyer out there who isn't privy to our discussions, I wish we could do more but the exaggerations of Andrew and Josh are the least of their potential problems as misinformed buyers in the replica wilderness.

[Pugwash]

I don't understand what else you want from them to do? I start thinking that after all you 'may' have an agenda behind your initial post which i thought was very good of you posting it.

I have no agenda. Honestly, did you think their answer was satisfactory?

[V]

I have no agenda. Honestly, did you think their answer was satisfactory?

No it was not.. I was expecting a more apologetic one to be honest.. Having said that I think that now they replied and changed their descriptions and take care of all the unhappy customers there is no reason for more bad-mouthing them..allowing every noob to come in this and the other topic and saying an ETA is an ETA and it is not an Asian...

Our hobby it is much more than that to be honest..

[offshore]

and take care of all the unhappy customers

Is this the case? If so, we in admin, are not aware of it!

Offshore

[V]

Is this the case? If so, we in admin, are not aware of it!

Offshore

It should be.. If not the unhappy customers should post their experience on the dealers review section where they should be.

But then again all the dealers have unfinished buisness with unhappy customers don't they?

Edit to add:

In this forum we say that we are not in favour of any dealer.. But with this discussion we are almost doing the opposite.

I admit that the admin team is quite neutral in this situation and watching carefully (good for you).

Sometime soon though it will be time to act and stop letting this thread continue to exist in a vague content. Whatever it had to be said it has been said.. From now on (and that's why i seem to support the dealers but i am not) there won't be any positive from this (which i think was pugs intention in the first place - and not an agenda although it may seems like this.

[gran]

Dear members,

The bell and ross is a project commissioned by the 2 of us.. We have the genuine as sample to achive the same exact dimension which is our main objective...

The movt in the genuine is Swiss 2892-2.. To put this movt in the watch will make the watch cost a lot more and also to order Swiss 2892-2...... requires a min quantity of at least 200 movts...., cash up front and delivery 6 months later..

Thus we decide to use the chinese clone of the 2892... Some members pointed out that the 2892 we used does not resemble the 2892 they know... The seagull 2892.... Now the seagull 2892 is thicker than the swiss 2892...... We disregard that cos we placed the thickness of the watch ahead of the movt looks.. Thus we went for this non seagull movt which the "experts" here are no familar with ... It is also a 2892 clone. 28800bph .... Though it looks different, ....it is the same thickness as the genuine 2892 which will allow us to maintain the correct watch size as the genuine.. In China.,. this is known as a 2892 clone as well... Along with 4 other factories who produces 2892 clone movements... Seagull is not the one and only.

Another example is the currently favoured New Asia 7750 movt with 28800bph.. compared that to the genuine 7750 .. does it looks like the 7750 ? It doesn;t.... So is this 2892 clone movt.

In the description, It is not our intention to misled.. We did not include the word "swiss" in our description.. We have since change the description as requested by the forum admin. In anycase.. We have been consistent in our dealings with all our customers.. We always tell them it is a Asian copy.. We never tell anyone that this is a Swiss movt.

As for superlume... as far as I know, there is no measure for luminosity....How super is super ? how not super is consider a lie ? .Those who own this watch will know that this watch has far better lume than a lot of other factory producing dials.. I called it now superb lume ... If some of you want to compared to those that you have paid USD 80/- bucks to someone to light it up like a torch... Then this is definitely not super...

For those who bought and is seeking clarifications ..please email us if you have any queries. We thank you for your support.

Thanks

Sincere Regards

Andrew and Joshua

You are the good guys in the replica business. No question about that and we are proud of you

Besides all the praise, you have never been a true expert about SWISS movements or about watch specifications Andrew you are a damn good businessman and you and your family should be very proud of that. When it comes to the 2892 story it is a sad one for the replica collectors but on the other hand some people have made a lot of money out of such missunderstandings

This is a quote from the opening side of RWGjr..yes on the front of this very forum

"Swiss or not!

Some vendors say that their replica watches are 100% Swiss; others say that they have Swiss movements; and others represent their replicas to be Grade 1 or higher. A buyer must understand that there is NO grading system for replicas, thus don’t forget this, buying a replicas, and each vender is free to characterize his or her watch anyway that they want. Gross exaggerations by replica sellers are the norm, not the exception. The price of the watch does not necessarily equate with the quality. Caveat emptor the watchword when purchasing replica watches.

You may avoid some problems. Most replicas have accurate weight and markings. Without opening the back of a watch, it is impossible in most cases for a layperson to notice any differences. The changes, if any, are so subtle that only a trained expert (collector or a watchmaker) can spot them. From outward appearances, most replicas when new are 99% percent accurate. The problems with replica watches come when they are not new, but 6 months down the road."

Certainly the situation inside RWG is much better than on the outside.

g.

[Pugwash]

From now on (and that's why i seem to support the dealers but i am not) there won't be any positive from this

Putting my obvious agenda aside, as soon as I work out what it is, I still believe something positive can come of it.

[V]

Putting my obvious agenda aside, as soon as I work out what it is, I still believe something positive can come of it.

We both know you don't have an agenda.. but you have to understand that it won't come something positive when there is a personal attack to two specific dealers.

[gran]

@V

Yes lets go beat up something abstract.....

[V]

@V

Yes lets go beat up something abstract.....

Andrew and Joshua have been beaten up the last two weeks.. You want to beat them to death? The admin team can do that by banning them...

In the meanwhile we can find other dealers behaviours we don't like to beat up as well..

Let's start with Prescious Time 'so called' solid gold submariner reps ended up being well quelle surprise... triple wrapped...

This wasn't a scam? Oh I forgot.. this was a honest mistake.. he didn't knew.. because his supplier told him they were solid gold

[namor]

Is this the case? If so, we in admin, are not aware of it!

Offshore

It should be.. If not the unhappy customers should post their experience on the dealers review section where they should be.

But then again all the dealers have unfinished buisness with unhappy customers don't they?

Edit to add:

In this forum we say that we are not in favour of any dealer.. But with this discussion we are almost doing the opposite.

I admit that the admin team is quite neutral in this situation and watching carefully (good for you).

Sometime soon though it will be time to act and stop letting this thread continue to exist in a vague content. Whatever it had to be said it has been said.. From now on (and that's why i seem to support the dealers but i am not) there won't be any positive from this (which i think was pugs intention in the first place - and not an agenda although it may seems like this.

I can just tell you my story, sad that others are not as detailed...

Joshua agreed to take the watch back, I shipped it like he said I should - it's on the way now.

After shipping I wrote him a mail with the tracking nr. and asked for a refund incl. both shipping costs.

Now I'm waiting till he receives the watch... I hope it comes through customs - I am no dealer and surely

can't take the customs/shipping loss.

As I said many times before - I will update you how the story ends.

You'll nowhere in my posts find a bad word about Joshua, but this whole false description thing REALLY makes

me angry ! I am really shocked of the fact how many members absolutely accept this.

Again, just to clear it up (TTK is right - some people sometimes just don't get it, whatever you try...) in simple words:

- We are not buying from Bestswiss.com !

- Superlume should be Superlume (for example it really WAS good at some "Ultimate" Fiddy models..!)

- Asian movement is Asian (Why not ? Ziggy has written some REALLY good reviews about them !)

- ETA should be ETA

- Mixed movement should be mixed movement

- Sapphire should be sapphire

More simple:

The description should be true.

I don't say that Andrew and Joshua are bad Dealers - but after my own experience I fully agree that they knowingly

described this specific watch (B&R) different than the facts are.

I am now waiting to resolve this - if this fails I will write a review about it and JUST THEN I can and will think about

calling someone "bad Dealer"...

Everything still can turn out good - and I believe it will.

[V]

And I would fully understand and support your position namor while posting it in the DEALERS REVIEW Joshua's section.. where is the appropriate place to be

I don't say Joshua is an angel or that he is doing everything right.. But bashing him and Andrew personally in General Discussion is not the way to go in my opinion. Some will agree others not..

[Goochenbrau]

Why cant the solution just be the dealers have to label things correctly from now on?

Only list Swiss ETA if it actually is Swiss ETA, etc. This should be encompassing the entire dealers' catalog. This would eliminate the need for individual interpretation of the watch discriptions.

[gran]

Andrew and Joshua have been beaten up the last two weeks.. You want to beat them to death? The admin team can do that by banning them...

In the meanwhile we can find other dealers behaviours we don't like to beat up as well..

Let's start with Prescious Time 'so called' solid gold submariner reps ended up being well quelle surprise... triple wrapped...

This wasn't a scam? Oh I forgot.. this was a honest mistake.. he didn't knew.. because his supplier told him they were solid gold

You have a very valid point V but let us not forget that it replica collectors money that is making this circus go around time and time again

It was easier in the old days when our friend ROLEXAWARD made everbody else look like a saint ..certainly we have become so much more demanding and that is probably a good thing.

[r11co]

Andrew and Joshua have been beaten up the last two weeks.. You want to beat them to death? The admin team can do that by banning them...

I don't think that will happen. However, I do think that their coats are on a 'shoogly peg' in the dealers' section. If that means anything to them then now is the time for gestures of goodwill.

If it doesn't then there are others waiting to take their place. I'm sure that they will be welcome to remain as registered members of the forum.

We can't change what goes on outside here, but the paid up members of RWG aren't stumping up to give charlatans credibility and advertising space. I don't like to think that my subscription is adding legitimacy to people who hide behind weasel words.

[Admin]

**Admin taking off his admin badge....**

Well, what can I say....I would be lying if I said that all the pages of the white lies" thread has been interesting, but in some ways they have been interesting. Let me take you down a trip memory lane and offer you some thoughts along the way.

I, like many others have been around the replica boards for 5-6 years. I have been the moderator of the biggest replica communities for +4 years. So let's rewind the watch 5-6 years. We are at a place called RWCC. Andrew has just posted some new watches and so has Wade. "Wow....they look great...I love them"

This is that the description looked like back then(just an example):

Omega Seamaster/black date wheel with white font price $xxx

+ a picture

That's it. That was all there was to it. I ordered one of my first watches from Wade...I had no clue about what movement that was inside and I am pretty sure we did not discuss any such things as AR, CG's etc. back then. (Ok, we did discuss movements. Either it was ETA or non-ETA, if my mind serves me right. That's how we categorized it back then) Back then all people did was look at the picture and decide if they wanted it or not. Mind you, we we're a tad smaller community back then. Ted can correct me if I am wrong, but I think we were about 300 members on RWCC!?

Because of some minor conflicts at RWCC, I created TRC and that was the start of the really BIG replica forums. It was also the start of something else that I am 100% sure that the replica forums have contributed to, contrary to what many members may believe: We have changed the replica industry! There is no doubt about it. We have had dealers with direct contacts to the factories almost from the beginning. "Now, who would cater to such a narrow market as these forums", you might be thinking....Well, imagine a dealer that tells his factory that if they change this and improve that, he might have 500+ customers. The dealer is willing to offer the factory a better price, because he knows that he has a lot of customers at the forums that have been looking for a watch with these improvements. And so the process begins. Not to mention that if you have a more expensive watch, there is also more money to be earned. Not much profit can be made on a $15 Rolex you usually see anywhere on the streets where replicas are being sold. And how many of the members on these forums have only bought 1 watch....show of hands....1....2, 3, 4, 5.....6.....7....Not many of us.

You might say that the dealers get a lot of traffic from the "general" audience, but this has only been happening during the last couple of years since they set up their websites. And personally I believe that these customers are the ones that are looking for that one Rolex they can show off to their friends, colleagues, etc. They are not genuinely interested in watches, like so many members here are. They don't come back to buy another watch, like members here do. Members who come here, bceome a part of the community and camaraderie here and they become more interested in watches, so they don't buy just one. We don't come back for 1 watch, we come back for 10, 20, 30........... (sometimes I think it would have been cheaper just to have been one of those people looking for a Rolex, found a site and having paid way to much money for it I would never have gone back. It sure is a lot cheaper than 5+ years on these forums )

When you think about the fact that RWG and TRC has 10000 members (Yes, I know there are a lot of members that are registered both places) you also will realize there are a lot of people here that can purchase watches. And the people of these forums are loyal members. According to Google statistics (They provide the statistics both here and at RWG) 90%+ are return visitors. Our front page (rwg.cc)has about 15000 unique hits every month and in January RWG passed 15.000.000 hits! But the most crazy thing is that our "main" page, rwg.cc/members had 56,606 unique visitors last month!!!!

Ok, I'm wandering off here, but I had to take a look at the stats page before I wrote this and I was amazed! My point is that there is a lot of "selling potential" on these forums. Even though only 1/4 of the members post on a regular basis, I know several members that have 0 posts and 30 watches

Ok, let me try and get back to my points here;

It's not just the quality of the watches that have improved. The "quality" of the replica crowd has also improved. Back when I started, nobody used to open up their watch to "just have a look what's inside". And when it comes to this, I do understand of the point several dealers make. They send out watches that were ok when sent, but all of a sudden they are "broken" and returned with various scratch marks on the case back, etc. I posted a post in the admin area that basically said that it HAS to be a nightmare to sell these delicate mechanical pieces to us...you know....men...because most of us are men....We read the forums and see that a member has opened up his watch and done this and that and that with it, and we think "Hey...I can do that"...you know...you're a man...men like to tinker with stuff...even though they have no idea what they are doing. Imagine this; The car engine stops and the man does of course step out of the car while telling his wife/girlfriend "I'll just go ahead and have a look at this bad boy" even though the only way he would actually know what was wrong with the engine was it there was a broken part that was waving a large "Help"-sign when he popped the hood.

There are a lot of people with a lot of great knowledge here and we all learn a lot about both the replicas and also watches in general, which is good. But I have to admit that there are times I think a lot of people have forgotten that we are dealing with REPLICA WATCHES here. I guess this is one of the hardest parts for some people to understand, because no matter what you do a replica, will always be a replica. I fully understand that people have different feelings and opinions for watches. Like me, I have always bought a watch because I liked the look of it, based on the factory/dealer picture that I saw. I buy a watch because I like it and because I always tell people it is a replica. People think I am crazy when they hear I have about 40 watches and that's proof that these people would never know it was a replica, unless I told them. How many of you had heard of brands like Jaeger Le Coultre, AP, Hublot, Panerai, etc, before you came here. I bet not many of you. I know I found RWCC while looking for a decent replica Rolex. But that's just me. I know A LOT of our members are buying the watches with a completely different motivation. I'm not going to get too much into the different motivations, but the majority of the members want to impress their friends, customers, etc. They want to create an "illusion", so that other people will think they are wealthy and successful (or something else cool!)

We as a community has a unique opportunity to influence things. The members here should not be afraid to speak up when they see foul play. Honest debate is fundamental to our forum’s viability (I had to borrow that one from you, J:)) We, as a community, has been able to influence the quality of the products we are buying. Why should we not also be able to influence the dealers to be as honest as possible in their descriptions? That's a pretty simple rule: Be honest when describing your products. Joshua and Andrew are not the only ones that have screwed up. Several dealers has probably misrepresented their product now and then, and most likely this has not been on purpose. Andrew and Joshua did a great thing when commissioning this cool watch. Unfortunately things did not go the way they probably planned it, and they messed up when describing the watch. Sure, they should have corrected it at once and sure, they should have posted sooner. But does this one specific event change the fact that Joshua and Andrew are good dealers and usually provide excellent service to the members? Of course not. They may have gotten a small bump in their fender and they needed a friendly push to post a reply, but is this a change in their policy and we will see only faulty descriptions on their website? Well, that remains to be seen, but I doubt it. Andrew and Joshua English is good enough to know what all the different jargons in the replica business means, so I hope they will be posting better descriptions on their websites and write "This watch as a great lume" instead of using a word like Superlume that we all know as the Superlume product used in genuine watches and re-lume projects.

But this should not only be about Andrew and Joshua. This should be about all the dealers. If you want change, all the dealers should provide a truthful description of their watches; If it is an ETA, write ETA, if it is a Seagull movement, write it. I don't think it should be too hard and I don't think this is something that has to be a "new" rule as of today. I think this is what the dealers have done all the time.

As gunnar has pointed out, this is written on the front page of RWG;

A buyer must understand that there is NO grading system for replicas, thus don’t forget this, buying a replicas, and each vender is free to characterize his or her watch anyway that they want. Gross exaggerations by replica sellers are the norm, not the exception. The price of the watch does not necessarily equate with the quality. Caveat emptor the watchword when purchasing replica watches.

It would be taking things out of context applying this to the forum. If you take a look at the RWG front page, it is supposed to be a warning to potential buyers and visitors to the real scam sites out there and how they handle things. Of course each vender is free to characterize his or her watch anyway that they want, but all the members at RWG are also free to point out the flaws or errors in his description. That's the way the forum should work. And a dealer selling one of those specially made 57jewel Rolexes at $1200 will never be found in the dealer areas here.

A lot of things has been discussed on all the pages in these two threads, but I think it might be time to give both the thread and the dealers a break. We have all the facts on the table. We will have to let time be the judge of what will happen next and see if descriptions will be updated, etc. When it comes to Joshua and Andrew, I believe they will do the right thing when it comes to this very model that has been discussed. I am sure that members that are not happy with the watch or has issues with it, can contact them and Joshua and Andrew will find a solution.

**Admin putting his admin badge back on...**

The RWG forums are here both for the members and the dealers. What we ultimately want here is the best watch community. We want a community of friendly members that take good care of the new members, respect the other members and lookout for each other. We want members and dealers that actively participate in the discussions and can educate each other with their different knowledge. There is a lot we don't know about the replica business and some insights now and then from our dealers would be interesting.

I will just finish this with the fact that we are dealing with replica watches. This is not a market regulated by regular consumer laws. The only thing we have is consumer power. We are depending on the dealers to provide the products they promise and they rely on our money. It is a relationship built on trust and cash, two things that sometimes does not always mix to good. But we are very fortunate to have a limited number of dealers here (that's why we have a limit ) that provide us with the products we want. We all do mistakes now and then. And that's allowed, as long as you are prepared to fix things and make things right. This goes for both the members and the dealers.

Bottom line: It is not ok to lie , not even when describing a watch and it this specific case the criticism was aimed at Joshua and Andrew. It could not be directed anywhere else, as they were the only two dealers who had this watch. Some member care, others do not. No further discussion will change anyone’s mind (hence the "Time to take a break"-idea mentioned above;)) All of this could have happened another time and then another dealer or dealers would have been taking the heat for this. This kind of discussion is impossible to have without mentioning specific examples and that way a dealer would have been involved one way or another.

You should all be able to draw your own conclusions about this (and the dealers also) but we also have to keep in mind that these things can and probably will happen in the future. Most likely, they will not be intended, but as some has posted before, the dealers are usually factory middlemen. They get the info from the factory and forward it to us. As long as they are prepared to respond to these cases and straighten up any misunderstanding when discovered, it should not be a big problem.

Well...that's all the rambling you'll get from me today...getting late and I hope my post has contributed to make things a little bit clearer (probably not, as I wander off too much )

[gioarmani]

Nice.

[V]

Well Admin I doubt there will be a better admin than you.. A true voice of wisdom

[Pugwash]

“If you want me to give you a two-hour presentation, I am ready today. If you want only a five-minute speech, it will take me two weeks to prepare.” - Mark Twain

Ok, I'll forgive the size.

Well, we now know the official stance and that's good enough for me.