Goochenbrau Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 I've told this story here before, but I think it's worth repeating... If the bank sends your counterfeit bill back to the treasury dept., you don't get it back either. Exactly. I must admit that I have not read the rest of the thread yet, but this is a great comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Exactly. I must admit that I have not read the rest of the thread yet, but this is a great comparison. It's a close analogy, but it's not 100% accurate. The result is the same, sure, but it's for different reasons. Currency has exceedingly specific laws all to itself, whereas we're merely talking about simple trademark law. Yes, of course the result is the same, apart from the prison sentence you get for counterfeit bills, and the length the police would go to trace the source. The lesson to be learned is ... um, damn, your mate has lost his watch. Maybe he should have told her it was a rep or that he thought it could have been or something. It's a little late to play "I should have" though, as it'll just cause arguments and won't get his watch back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 I know people on this board get mad at me but you really do need to keep your reps out of AD show rooms. I agree...the all time dumbest practice of rep collecting. Not only are people who do this deluding themselves that that they fool any watch salesman who actually knows anything about watches (I know for a fact that at the AD I go to to regularly look and rarely to buy, every new salesperson is instructed NEVER to call a potential customer out on a rep) but they're not doing themselves or their felow collectors any favors-"Hey, let's go show off how good reps are getting to represntatives of an industry that has a financial incentive to demand stronger anti-counterfeiting laws!!!" Taking a rep in to "fool" and AD is almost as dumb as hiding your watch's repness from your wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 I agree...the all time dumbest practice of rep collecting. Not only are people who do this deluding themselves that that they fool any watch salesman who actually knows anything about watches (I know for a fact that at the AD I go to to regularly look and rarely to buy, every new salesperson is instructed NEVER to call a potential customer out on a rep) but they're not doing themselves or their felow collectors any favors Sometimes, however, it's unavoidable. If you come across a new shop and you're wearing a rep, you'd better hope it's not something obvious or you're taking it off before you go in. The other thing is that some of us just forget whether or not we're wearing a rep or a gen when we walk through the door of the AD. Yes, sure, to deliberately flaunt a replica in an AD is possibly the dumbest thing you can do to our hobby, unless the guy there is a buddy of course, but accidentally wearing one into a shop happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermanx Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 There is also a big differance between wearing a rep into an ad and flaunting your rep at an ad... If your using your rep as a way to get preferential treatment or big stuffing your asking for trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreww Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 I see no problem in wearing a rep in to an AD. Not that I'm trying to fool or impress, but I'm not going to pull my watch off my wrist so I can go into a shop. The day I have to do that is the day I start wearing Timex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavor flav Posted February 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 I see no problem in wearing a rep in to an AD. Not that I'm trying to fool or impress, but I'm not going to pull my watch off my wrist so I can go into a shop. The day I have to do that is the day I start wearing Timex. i agree. i just don't care! i buy alot of gens anyway and alot of reps. i like watches. most of mine are really good modded reps and they probably wont get called out but i never give a close inspection to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 (edited) I'm hoping she doesn't notice I've got 24 filled watchbox slots when she visits in a few weeks, or else I'm going to have to explain how there were dozens of Christmas raffles and I won them all. 24? Peanuts! I haven't counted recently, but I am at least at 75. Of course almost all are either 40+ yo vintage that I am hoping will appreciate more than they have already or modern mechanicals that I got for a song and hope to flip someday. The vintage watches were probably a good investment, but I am backing off the purchase of any more modern watches. I am not sure they will ever appreciate the way the Swiss manufacturers keep pumping out mid-line watches. I have a couple of Venturas that I think might do well since Ventura doesn't seem to be making any more mechanical watches. I do have a hard "time" passing up something that I see with a Valjoux 7750 for $300. I believe it would be impossible that I can't flip that sucker for a profit. /Tim Edited February 4, 2007 by Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 I agree. I've won reps before, and the first question my wife asks is "what's it worth?". If my response was "$5000, its genuine", hers would be "hand it over, we're selling it!". Owned. hahaha....glad i aint married yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005SUBMARINER Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 smashing it with a hammer is the least of his worries . cartier might charge him with counterfeit claim against him .. if there as tuff as rolex lawyers ... good luck man .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvt Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 A couple years ago I bought my Dad a fake Submariner because he wanted a change from his genuine Day Date that he has had for 25 plus years. He is used to how a gen wears so he was too rough with the fake and very quickly it needed a new bezel as the original popped out. I had him send it to me and made it VERY clear NOT to take it to a genuine AD. I sent it back to the dealer (River) who replaced the bezel and even senta couple of extras (the original was supposedly a gen insert but I have my doubts). Anyway, cut to a fe months later and now the crystal comes out. Oh, I should say that he was wearing it without the bezel for weeks without ever even noticing! Most normal people are not aware of things like we are but that was a bit silly. So this time around the crystal comes out and he asks me about it. I tell him to send it back and I will try to have it repaired but that he has to be more careful. A couple weeks go by and I never got the watch from him. Guess what? He took it into an AD ignoring everything I told him. Here is the shocking part, they not only repaired the watch and sealed the crystal but they did not charge him for it! When he picked it up they said :Sir, you do know this is a counterfeit watch, right?" He said yes and that it was just a beater watch. They gave it back to him and that was that, not money changed hands and no watches were confiscated. Perhaps they knew he had a genuine Day Date and so they cut him some slack, repairing it locally... I don't know, but it is an interesting and unexpected outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv123 Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Yup, it's called "defending your trademark". What's worse is they may charge him for the time. Or, they could just keep it for the collection, like Matt Groening does with counterfeit Simpsons stuff. I think they would be on pretty dangerous legal ground if they took $400 for a service and then destroy/hold onto the watch and also try to charge for the time taken to destroy the rep. They will need to refund the $400 paid for the work first and maybe deduct a little for handling the rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 I think they would be on pretty dangerous legal ground if they took $400 for a service and then destroy/hold onto the watch and also try to charge for the time taken to destroy the rep. They will need to refund the $400 paid for the work first and maybe deduct a little for handling the rep. Possibly. However, they may be able to claim they did the service before destroying the watch. You can't prove they didn't. However, I reckon they'll refund the cash minus a handling fee, as you say. It'd be different if the shop had an in-house watchsmith, as it'd be down to his discretion at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornerstone Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Ach, they're not going to smash it up - but it is going to be very embarrassing. Folk get conned on reps every day outside the forum - people often pay full price for a rep, we see folk flogging them on ebay all the time. So it's not surprising that they might take them to an AD. Frankly, offering to pay $400 to service it suggests quite strongly that you think it's real. $400 is a big mark-up on a service - my guess is they will do a half-assed service, call it out, and keep the cash. Maybe he should tell them that they tried to scam him by swapping the movement (joke!) Now that sounds like a case for Judge Judy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavor flav Posted February 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 update....he called the AD and they replied "were still waiting for it to come back. no word yet." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj69 Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 This is a pretty interesting situation. What would happen if a consumer brought a rep Rolex to an AD, the AD sends it to Rolex for service, and Rolex sends back a letter saying "we destroyed it because it was fake." Couldn't the consumer then sue the AD for the value of a real Rolex? Wouldn't the burden be on the AD (and/or Rolex) to prove that the watch was a fake, rather than on the consumer to prove that it was real? If Rolex destroys the rep, they and the AD would have a hard time proving anything. Just to add another wrinkle, let's say our savvy consumer does, in fact, own a real Rolex, and has all receipts and documentation to show that it was purchased from an AD. If the consumer introduces that reciept as evidence that the Rolex he left with the AD was a gen, then what? Just food for thought. I have a feeling Rolex doesn't just smash watches with a hammer. I would think they would hold onto them as evidence in case something like the above hypothetical happens, in order to protect themselves and their AD. I'm also interested to hear whether Flav's friend gets his $400 back for the "service" he paid for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hilarious story. Interesting responses. If Cartier smashed my watch with a hammer, I'd slap a Federal suit on their asses just out of principal. "Protection of trademark" my ass. This is not a trademark infringment issue. This is in fact a private property issue... Here are the important questions: 1) Are counterfeit goods considered contraband? Answer: In the USA, NO. (See: http://www.chronocentric.com/watches/counterfeit.shtml) We're not talking about the import/export of counterfeit goods, we're talking about possession. And possessing such a watch is not illegal. It is the maker and sellers of replicas that are usually in violation of the legal copyrights on the original manufacturer's copyrights and trademarks. Therefore, my replica watches are not contraband - they are my private property. 2) Is it ok for a private entity to destroy somebody else's property? Answer: In the USA, emphatically NO. If a private entity destroys my property without permission THEY CAN BE LIABLE. Period. It doesn't matter that the property is a counterfeit watch. It doesn't matter that I willingly handed it over to them. I handed it over to them for the purpose of repair, not destruction, and I have the legal right to possess that watch whether they like it or not. Sure, I might get a threatening letter from their lawyers, but my rights stand and their threats don't change that. If Cartier is smart, they'll either refuse the job and refund the $400 or they'll do the work and take the money. If they smash the watch with a hammer, they're not smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hilarious story. Interesting responses. If Cartier smashed my watch with a hammer, I'd slap a Federal suit on their asses just out of principal. "Protection of trademark" my ass. This is not a trademark infringment issue. This is in fact a private property issue... Here are the important questions: 1) Are counterfeit goods considered contraband? Answer: In the USA, NO. (See: http://www.chronocentric.com/watches/counterfeit.shtml) We're not talking about the import/export of counterfeit goods, we're talking about possession. And possessing such a watch is not illegal. It is the maker and sellers of replicas that are usually in violation of the legal copyrights on the original manufacturer's copyrights and trademarks. Therefore, my replica watches are not contraband - they are my private property. 2) Is it ok for a private entity to destroy somebody else's property? Answer: In the USA, emphatically NO. If a private entity destroys my property without permission THEY CAN BE LIABLE. Period. Nevermind that I willingly handed it over to them. It doesn't matter. I handed it over to them for the purpose of repair, not destruction, and I have the legal right to possess that watch whether they like it or not. Sure, I might get a threatening letter from their lawyers, but my rights stand and their threats don't change that. If Cartier is smart, they'll either refuse the job and refund the $400 or they'll do the work and take the money. If they smash the watch with a hammer, they're not smart. Does anybody here really think Cartier has a "Smash the replicas with a hammer" division???? Might they confiscate it????? It's a possibility. I would hope their first contact with a customer who came into an AD with a fake to have it serviced would be to kindly and gently tell them they had been had, not that they were trying to put one over on them. Only an idiot or a tragically mislead spouse would take a fake into an AD for service. I'm certain they have seen this happen many times innocently. My guess is that he will get his watch back with a kind explaination that he was scammed, not that he's a counterfieter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 And possessing such a watch is not illegal. It is the maker and sellers of replicas that are usually in violation of the legal copyrights on the original manufacturer's copyrights and trademarks. Therefore, my replica watches are not contraband - they are my private property. In US law, possession of a counterfeit watch is illegal if that person can be considered to have intent to trade or sell it for goods and/or services, including barter. Beyond that, possession isn't illegal in the US. However, what happens once you give it to the trademark holder willingly, is what we're discussing and I don't think anyone here really knows the legality, no matter how loudly they shout that they do. We all know that if a policeman takes a counterfeit $20 off you, your property rights mean absolutely nothing, for instance. I'm going to wait and see what happens. I know what would happen here in France, and it wouldn't be pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 In US law, possession of a counterfeit watch is illegal if that person can be considered to have intent to trade or sell it for goods and/or services, including barter. Beyond that, possession isn't illegal in the US. However, what happens once you give it to the trademark holder willingly, is what we're discussing and I don't think anyone here really knows the legality, no matter how loudly they shout that they do. We all know that if a policeman takes a counterfeit $20 off you, your property rights mean absolutely nothing, for instance. I'm going to wait and see what happens. I know what would happen here in France, and it wouldn't be pretty. Yea. Thankfully this isn't France and Cartier isn't a policeman. This is a free republic where my property rights stand up against any private entity's disapproval. The pretense under which the property exchange is made makes all the difference. And let's not confuse legality with the actions taken by Cartier. Certainly they're aware that the stakes for the property owner in this case are minimal, and said property owner is extremely unlikely to make a case out of it. They may well throw the letter of the law to the wind, unlawfully destroy someone else's property, and make a (hollow) threat through their lawyers knowing damn well that 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of people will just crawl under a rock, consider themselves lucky (ironically), and never be heard from again. Oh, and BTW, "smash with a hammer" is certainly just a dramatic way of saying "confiscate" and undoubtedly not to be taken literally. Neither is permissible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Category 5 Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Yeah, I have always wondered about this. For instance, what if I get a Fiero, drop the body, and put a kit car Testarossa body on it (there are plenty legally sold in the US).. Then I decide I want to go all out and bolt on some real Ferrari logos on the car to really impress my lowlife work friends who don't know any better. Can Ferrari come and smash my car? Can they take it away from me? Am I infringing on trademarks? So then what if the clutch burns out and I take it to a service center that has an authrized Ferrari repair division. Do they smash my car or take it away? Certainly they would be breaking the law if they did that! I say he gets the watch back with a refund...unrepaired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I say he gets the watch back with a refund...unrepaired. The refund is a given, I reckon. As for returning the watch? We'll see. The least likely outcome is that he gets his watch back serviced, but that's what I'd like to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Yeah, I have always wondered about this. For instance, what if I get a Fiero, drop the body, and put a kit car Testarossa body on it (there are plenty legally sold in the US).. Then I decide I want to go all out and bolt on some real Ferrari logos on the car to really impress my lowlife work friends who don't know any better. Can Ferrari come and smash my car? Can they take it away from me? Am I infringing on trademarks? So then what if the clutch burns out and I take it to a service center that has an authrized Ferrari repair division. Do they smash my car or take it away? Certainly they would be breaking the law if they did that! I say he gets the watch back with a refund...unrepaired. Right. Ferrari can't confiscate your car any more than Cartier can confiscate your watch. However this doesn't mean they WON'T. Because who (besides me ) is going to sue over a $150 watch, after all? So I can easily see where they'd illegally confiscate the watch and bully the owner just as much as I can see them returning it (serviced or not). Still makes for a great story and an interesting one to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 i think he may have told his wife he won it in a bet so she would not be mad at him for spending money (all us married guys know the story) anyways he never told her it's fake. little white lies...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavor flav Posted February 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 today, i flat out told him he's f'ed! he called the AD and they have not heard anything back yet they say....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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