The Time has Come to Say Something....

[TeeJay]

Well I think the time for procrastination and beating around the bush is done, we have had a lot of evidence against them and it's now time to act, not draw this out long enough that we lose interest and forget about it.

We should stop tooing and froing and come to a resolution, my suggestion is this:

RWG, RWI and TRC suspend their dealing privilidges on the boards for a set period of time, and make their section invisible for that time

RWI removes them from the 5 star dealers list

RWG, RWI and TRC stop all linking to their sites

All 3 boards enforce new guidelines as to the outline of a sales listing;

There must be detailed pictures of the front, back, sides, bracelet/strap and MOVEMENT

There must be a detailed and ACCURATE description of the watch for sale (like TTK uses)

We as a membership boycott them until they can PROVE to us that they have mended their ways

I would also suggest that as Andrew and Josh, have ALL the same watches at ALL the same prices, and ALL the same pictures, they become ONE dealing entity, as apposed to the 2 they are at the moment. Therefore calling for the removal of one of the sites, as it would be redundant.

When reinstated the 4 dealers should be watched closely for any indiscretions, and also MUST post all new watches on the forum, NOT JUST LINKING to a web page, the watch must be listed in the correct format or you will be punished.

Any further counts of misrepresentation/LYING should result in an outright ban and removal.

These are my thoughts, and though quite comprehensive are not difficult to follow and/or impliment.

Now is the time for action, strike while the iron is hot, and let's not waste time, the more time we waste the less momentum this will have and we will just end up forgetting about it and moving on.

Edge

I agree entirely with this, but, I would not give them the benefit of the doubt to be reinstated. People have been lied to, manipulated, and their trust abused. If they are the kind of people who will do it once, I fear they are the kind of people who may do the same in the future, particularly if there ever comes for a request for suppliers to create another unusual watch (as with the B&R Scenario)

[Edge]

Please be patient with the admin/mods they have to consider the board at larg and must make informed decisions based on discussion, this discussion process is not quick as inevitably not all admin/mods may see things the same way and a consensus must be drawn.

They will act in the best interests of the forum, I have full faith.

[Edge]

I would like to add that these are merely MY suggestions, I am in now way saying that this is the way IT HAS to be, just giving my opinion on a POSSIBLE course of action.

I look forward to the action taken and will stand behind whatever the mods and admin staff of RWG TRC and RWI can hopefully do together.

[deltatahoe]

first off, let me say that i am absolutely for taking whatever actions are necessary to ensure the dealers do not misrepresent their products in the future. however, i think edge's proposed plan could be improved upon. my thoughts are below....

We as a membership boycott them until they can PROVE to us that they have mended their ways

how exactly do you propose that they prove to us that they have mended their ways?

i think the best way to go about this is to demand the dealers to change the descriptions and add detailed movement pictures on the omega aqua terra and the 1:1 b&r (and any other blatantly misrepresented watches*) on their websites to make it extremely clear what type of movements we are getting in our watches. the message should be simple: if you want to be a dealer on our forum, you cannot misrepresent your items, whether on your website or on watches your post on this forum. if they will not comply, then they should not be allowed to be a dealer here.

*are there any other blatantly misrepresented watches? if so, it would be useful to compile a list of them so we could include all of them in the demand.

I would also suggest that as Andrew and Josh, have ALL the same watches at ALL the same prices, and ALL the same pictures, they become ONE dealing entity, as apposed to the 2 they are at the moment. Therefore calling for the removal of one of the sites, as it would be redundant.

people have existing relationships with both dealers, and prefer buying from one or another. you are also assuming they make exactly the same amount of money because they have the same watches, website, etc. there is no way this is true. who knows, joshua might do double the sales that andrew does or vice-versa. who are you to tell them they can't run separate businesses / websites? i think you're reaching here...

When reinstated the 4 dealers should be watched closely for any indiscretions, and also MUST post all new watches on the forum, NOT JUST LINKING to a web page, the watch must be listed in the correct format or you will be punished.

there is no reason each new watch should have to be posted to the forum in addition to the website, assuming the website is accurate and includes all of the relevant information required to make an informed purchase. if you think the dealers will keep the forums more up to date than their sites (which for joshua and andrew are automated with linked credit card processing capabilities), you are kidding yourself.

these are just my thoughts. i am for change just like everyone else; i just think there could be a better way of making it happen.

deltatahoe

[Tim]

"Tim" is good. The K4TJP is an FCC license. I couldn't think of anything else. The 28277 I had before was my friggin' zip code. I'm not very imaginative.

Mr. P, how is the weather down South?

Careful!

/Tim

[Edge]

i think the best way to go about this is to demand the dealers to change the descriptions and add detailed movement pictures on the omega aqua terra and the 1:1 b&r (and any other blatantly misrepresented watches*) on their websites to make it extremely clear what type of movements we are getting in our watches.

We have actually done this, to no avail, this was the course of action after the Aqua Terra incident which they STILL haven't changed.

people have existing relationships with both dealers, and prefer buying from one or another. you are also assuming they make exactly the same amount of money because they have the same watches, website, etc. there is no way this is true.

Very True, but when they become ONE entity which they are now, they have the same watches, suppliers, pictures, web sites, and pool resources and collaborate on pricing and deals and EVERYTHING, then they are ONE dealer not 2 so why do we need them, IF we say that we are ok with them having a site referenced on the forum or whatever then why can't they just have one site, with an email address with 2 aliases where you could contact either one, andy@blahblahblah.com and josh@blahblahblah.com simple. they are one dealer now since they share everything so we no longer need them both taking up a spot each.

As for the posting on the forum instead of the site, WHO says that the board will allow links back to their site AT ANY point, so no noobs etc. would ever know their URL so they would NEED to post on the forum. That way what is being posted and said can be MODERATED by the staff, which we cannot enforce on an independant website. This is the reason for enforcing the rule of posting on the forum, because if we implement a uniform way of listing items, they would HAVE to stick to it, not just list however they please on their site.

I for one would like to see the removal of any inference to their website permanantly, as it ensures uniformity and ensures that their listings can be and are subject to being MODERATED, they are then within the realm of control, whereas as an independant entity they are relatively uncontrollable.

And YES!! before anyone says it, I would say the same should be done for Paul or Silix or King or anyone who has their own site, IF AND WHEN they step over the line in the fashion that these dealers have, until then they have the trust of the forum to continue with their site, but if they step over the line we could invoke the same restrictions on them.

[jfreeman420]

I would also suggest that as Andrew and Josh, have ALL the same watches at ALL the same prices, and ALL the same pictures, they become ONE dealing entity, as apposed to the 2 they are at the moment. Therefore calling for the removal of one of the sites, as it would be redundant.

That is the most ignorant thing I have heard. I stayed out of this thread until it slowed down a bit but I can't sit here and read this nonsense. Josh and Andrew's sites both have different new items on their home pages every day. A lot of their stock is completely different and from different factories. It is only recently that this wave of super reps have come to the market place. Angus, josh and Trusty may have had some influence in the design of these new reps. The manufacturers said I will give you an exclusive if you can move so many pieces in a month. The only way to do that is to pool all their customers. Did anyone ever stop to consider that maybe this "cartel" is a good thing? Maybe the dealers got together to guarantee the maker a larger amount of sales and get a better price. Did anyone think of that? Volume is key in any business. Can anyone find any brand of watch that has automatic movement (swiss or asian) over 200 grams of high grade stainless steel (whether its 316L or better) sapphire crystal (synthtetic or genuine) working chronograph and AR coating for $300 to $400? I don't think so. If our BCE had the name invicta on it it would be well over $1,500. I also believe if the dealers didn't collaborate our prices would be higher. Look at the price on EL's IWC pilot watch. He obviously has an exclusive on that one for a while but he is the only one. If he guaranteed the maker X # of sales i'm sure the price would be lower. This is the way Wal-Mart keeps their prices low. They have tremendous buying power. I seriously don't think this "cartel" has any bad intentions or are trying to corner any market, but I do think they are smarter business people than we give them credit for. Keep in mind this is a lot of speculation, but I have ran many of my own businesses as well as a $14 million per year corporation and if there is one thing I know it's marketing.

[olivia]

Regarding this whole issue

Trust...but Verify

Edited March 28, 2007 by olivia

[Edge]

I seriously don't think this "cartel" has any bad intentions or are trying to corner any market

I'm sorry but THAT is the most ignorant thing I have heard in a LONG time.

It is FACT that Andrew and Josh are now in COMPLETE cooperation, and have COMPLETELY merged to offer watches, this has been confirmed by MANY sources including MULTIPLE dealers. it is in fact Josh who instigated this to try and corner the market, and in an attempt to push the smaller dealers out, he spoke to Andy and convinced him that merging was a good way to make more $$$.

I am not going to argue this point anymore we have the evidence and more substantial evidence is also known, you have chosen to interpret it in the way you have, that is your free choice as a free human being........

I am not going to be drawn into a redundant argument over this and certainly am trying hard to to verbally assault this, however I will say that it always amazes me how some people rationalise some issues.

[r11co]

That is the most ignorant thing I have heard. I stayed out of this thread until it slowed down a bit but I can't sit here and read this nonsense. Josh and Andrew's sites both have different new items on their home pages every day.

You have no idea how wrong you are on this one, jfreeman. I suggest that you butt out before you make a fool of yourself. Josh (Perfect Clones) and Andrew (TrustyTime) teamed up long ago. They have made no secret of it. They will however exploit the ignorance of people like yourself if it suits both you and them.

Do your homework, get with the story, then consider your reply to this, if you think one is appropriate.

[woody]

Edge did say that it is HIS opinion only. I think the most important thing, going forward, is that if it had a crappy Asian movement inside, let your customers know ahead of time, instead of letting the customers discover it on their own. More than anything else, that is the single, most driven point of this entire thread.

[deltatahoe]

We have actually done this, to no avail, this was the course of action after the Aqua Terra incident which they STILL haven't changed.

i realize we have asked repeatedly that they correct descriptions for the aqua terra and the b&r.....my whole point is this: ask them again, with the understanding that if they do not comply, they will be banned (as i said in my original post).

[Edge]

Fair enough, I respect your opinions on this matter, and welcome any further constructive comments.

Thank you again for taking the time to input the more suggestions we have the more choice we give the admin/mod staff, and that can only be a good thing.

[deltatahoe]

thanks edge. i think we should have more members weighing in on potential solutions to this situation. surely we can collectively come up with a reasonable solution.

[b16a2]

We have actually done this, to no avail, this was the course of action after the Aqua Terra incident which they STILL haven't changed.

i realize we have asked repeatedly that they correct descriptions for the aqua terra and the b&r.....my whole point is this: ask them again, with the understanding that if they do not comply, they will be banned (as i said in my original post).

I see where you are coming form here, but I believe that this is one time too many. If we don't take action against them now, then they are going to continue knowing that they have got off lightly. They have scammed people, the should be punished. They have had two chances already, lets show them that we mean it this time.

I don't think that Angus has had a massive role in this personally. Banning him on the basis of being in a cartel is too harsh. I may have missed something, but I don't recall him being involved in any deceit of any kind. The only thing I read was that he was co-operating with them for marketing and distributing their products?

[sexypapa]

Well, guess I found this post a little too late, but, hey, I do agree with Edge in some point.

Anyway, I am sure these dealers definatly know what they are doing and still doing it.

I don't blame them because who don't want to make more money?

There must be some ways to change it....

[Edge]

I agree, and the more constructive input we can get the better, the final decision will of course be down to Admin and the team as well as the teams at RWI and TRC, however if we can help by giving our sugestions then surely that is positive, as we collectively have many minds (well we should lol) and together we will come up with a plethora of alternatives, of which the powers that be can determine the best course of action.

[omega1]

i realize we have asked repeatedly that they correct descriptions for the aqua terra and the b&r.....my whole point is this: ask them again, with the understanding that if they do not comply, they will be banned (as i said in my original post).

Agreed. I think the problem last time was that they were asked to clean up their act, but no ultimatum was given. I think that they should be asked again, this time with the clear understanding that there will be repercussions this time around.

[olivia]

Agreed. I think the problem last time was that they were asked to clean up their act, but no ultimatum was given. I think that they should be asked again, this time with the clear understanding that there will be repercussions this time around.

Maybe, but someone with the cultural knowledge to know how to present these issues properly needs to be engaged in any effort to approach them...you know, "saving face", and all that.

[Highflyingclive]

It may be time to take a breather.

Edge, for whom I have had a lot of respect in the past, seems intent on a stirring up a lynch mob. All because of one ... can we, for the moment, call it an error? Just to give us time for reflection?

Can any of you remember what the market was like before Joshua appeared? I certainly recognise several people from the old days in this thread.

If the so-called "cartel" have a fault, it is that they have held prices down... and because of this have influenced other dealers to follow their lead.

Or would you prefer to pay Honpo's prices?

Service? Before Joshua appeared it just did not exist. But since Joshua started making good the inevitable DOA movements, dropped markers, loose hands, etc, et al.... look what happened. The other dealers followed suit.

When Andrew first appeared, he made a lot of mistakes. Not least of which was misrepresenting the movements inside his watches. He was naiive enough to put into print stuff that his dealer had told him. There was quite a bit of fuss over this... but no lynch-mob. Andrew set about putting his house in order and worked hard to overcome those early difficulties.

But now Edge wants to see Andrew, Joshua, King and Angus driven out of business... over one error, in one watch?

It seems a little disproportionate.

I'm not saying that nothing should be done. But I think that the people involved should be given the chance to put their case - and if necessary, put their respective house in order - before we let the lynch-mob loose.

In my opinion, Andrew was ill-advised to enter this thread when he did - and I certainly don't blame the others for not wishing to join in until the emotion and the rhetoric die down.

I have to decare an interest. I have been dealing with Joshua since he started his business. I was one of his first customers. I have bought several watches from him since. In every case I have been delighted with every aspect of the transactions.

I have a B&R. From Joshua. I had one of the first... perhaps the very first, of the PVD models. No - I haven't a clue what movement it has inside. Yes - it keeps perfect time... to COSC standard. Am I about to open it up to see if I have been "ripped-off"?

Of course not.

Would I deal with Joshua again?

Certainly - without hesitation.

[b16a2]

That's fair enough, and yes forgiveness should be given to those who make a mistake. It shouldn't be to those who knowingly misrepresent products to increase their revenue. Aqua Terra, B&R, unserviced watches that are meant to be serviced. I don't consider those to be mistakes......

[yodaddynukka]

hmmmmm....

30 Members: yodaddynukka, offshore, kenberg, warburg, omega1, Highflyingclive, pabra, deltatahoe, fleed, ryyannon, HighDef, who, Steve G, shultzie, passion4audio, Jos Nana, jwelch, spekoli, bigpops, Woody, f4juk, geonahta, olivia, tutima, zetterdawg, Triodus, Wyvern, grinbo, freddy, warpedpig

[HighDef]

Seem like the the gang of 4 are just reading but not responding. Maybe they are talking to the Admin and Mods via PM or email?? They should at least say something(even if it is wrong) in defense for thier selves. These are serious matter that could affect thier sales. Like Niel say,,this is not just a storm in a tea cup.

[omega1]

Maybe, but someone with the cultural knowledge to know how to present these issues properly needs to be engaged in any effort to approach them...you know, "saving face", and all that.

I am hoping that will be where the Admin team comes into play.

Don

[Guest paneraifreak]

OK.

The threads are becoming more and more rampid on the "bad dealer" topic...

All these threads will certainly mutate the mood and create a certain point in time of anger, disgust and redefinition of terms and expectations....

But I feel we need one or two master minds, two people with strong leadership and insight, that will monitor this so that this wave of disenchantment does not get out of hand, because it can.

Yes, we have the buying power, yes we can walk the protest and hurt the dealers' wallet but we must be careful that these militant approaches do not backfire on the well meaning people who wish to keep buying reps....

Now, these watches are illegal, fakes, knockoffs.... we need to remember that this is a hardly a business and more a money making "operation".... real legitimate businesses hold business licences, follow professional business practices, some businesses answer to outside agencies for accountability and customer service (Better Business Bureau) and some even require operating ethics and mission statements: the rep "operation" is not obliged to adhere to any of the above mentions.... they ought not to because of their clandestine nature.

So, for us to expect utmost professional business conduct from shady unkown Makers and distant "unlicensed" untrained" dealers is a tad unrealistic.

Simple honesty? HHMMM...can you regulate that like we do in governments and larger retail businesses? NOPE

Simple moral conduct and integrity? WHY? They are in this sneaky illegal gig to make money, not because they love every one of us... They dont have to answer to us like we answer to our wives or parents or bosses..

Simple courtesy?? Maybe...but again, they seem to be in the advantage here because they have the watches we crave and therefore they feel they should be able to dictate how their business should be run and what terms need to be in place, not us the eager watch geeks with open wallets.

Little white lies? Sure, why not? There are very few businesses in this world that absolutely will not lie at all: most will tell a cute little white lie to boost their sales or entice you to buy their second grade junk. It happens every day, on all four corners of the world. And from my own experience, little white lies are super common in all business areas in ASIA...it is almost part of many Asian cultures: a little white lie.

i actually believe that we are not a huge portion of those dealers' market. I am sure we are significant but does any of us truly know how vital we are to their business?

It is a good idea to speak out and unite and form some kind of coalition or front but we must do it carefully, wisely and with a foresight enough so the odds of success are on our side and not theirs.

My small two cents