Edge Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Well I am truly sorry to have to be the one to come out and say something here but, at the end of the day someone has to, and it wouldn't be the same if I just signed up as a noob and posted this. For some time now we have been living a bit of a lie, and the membership have come to see through rose tinted glasses. We are being manipulated and used for financial gain. There are dealers among us now who have chosen to set up in business as a conglomerate or "cartel". This in essence should have been a good thing in order to pool resources etc. However what started off as a good thing for the board has now escalated into quite simply a money making scam on the members which has seen quality and customer service deteriorate. What started out as a couple of dealers pooling resources has evolved into at LEAST 4 dealers working together to control prices and supply. Over the last few months we have been embroiled in scandal regarding seperate issues which have been to some extent overlooked and dismissed. Well the time has come to make sure that we put and end to this....and that time is most DEFINITELY NOW. It has come to my attention that not only is this cartel trying to control the supply of certain movements, in order to make sure they are the only ones who can supply watches requiring them they are also: Price Fixing, which will lead to inflated prices for EVERYONE Possibly giving backhanders to influential members, however NOT the Admin/Mods of RWG MOST IMPORTANTLY - LYING OUTRIGHT TO CUSTOMERS I have lost count now of how many complaints I have seen or have been reported to me that the customer service from this cartel has seriously deteriorated, and more importnantly they have outright lied to customers. We can all remember the B&R scandal, in which it was mentioned that they came with ETA movements, well guess what they DONT, I am know privy to photographic and documented EVIDENCE that the B&R super dooper massive absolutely fantastic version which costs an arm and 2 legs, has got a very cheap CHINESE movement in it. I would like to point out that this IS NOT the quite impressive Chinese ETA copy movement which has been previously reviewed but IN FACT a $2 Chinese POS movement. In fact, the B&R case represented in this documentation WILL NOT fit a ETA movement in it, NOT EVEN CLOSE, so it's not as if the wrong movement was put in by mistake and there was meant to be an ETA in so the details were posted, IT DOESN'T ACCEPT AN ETA MOVEMENT. SO THESE ARE OUTRIGHT LIES!!! This is pure profiteering on the part of the dealers, who are now attempting to take control of how items are bought and sold on the forums. We have to make a stand a vote with our feet. We have many excellent dealers who should be getting our business due to the fact that they strive to help us and do not try and use us and go behind our backs to control sales and make more and more money off of us. TTK Narikaa Precious Time Silix Eddie River Davidsen Ruby Sash etc. have all been good to us in the past, and I am not in any way trying to advertise dealers as being better than others in that list - they are at the end of the day up to personal preference, however I would like to see us use the dealers WHO ARE NOT TRYING TO SCREW US, before resorting to using the ones who are. Maybe then they will go back to being the valuable assets they once were. We provide the main business for these guys and we are the ones who can effect change. There are a few of you who will no doubt think we provide a small portion of business for these dealers, as they try to make us believe. UTTER RUBBISH. We provide these guys with almost all their business and without us they are nothing. RWG get 10-20 MILLION hits a week which is MASSIVE amount of business opportunities for these guys. We have seen them change URL without the batting of an eyelid, which if you had a lot of business derived from Google etc. you just couldn't do without a lot of planning and consideration, as you would lose your place in searches etc. Whereas our dealers can change URL whenever they want as long as they inform the boards they don't suffer, this shows a clear indication that their sales are US, not people searching and coming a cross them. Do a search for "Replica ???" anything and tell me when you find one of our dealers, I would give up about page 200 or so...... They NEED US!!! We lived and survived long before these cartel dealers were here and will continue to survive if they leave. This is not what I want I want them to go back to being the trustworthy and reliable dealers that they once were, and stop trying to take us for fools and play games with us and think they can get away with lying to us. I for one do not like being lied to and will not stand for it. We need to make sure that this [censored] stops, and it stops now, we can't have dealers writing utter crap on their site luring in members with false promises and then not delivering. We have many members who need to take the word of the dealer for granted as, with all due respect, they don't know any better. We get lots of new members who do not know the difference between movements etc. and can be easily duped. We as a membershp need to do what this board was designed to do and that is stop the members from being SCAMMED. Let's not beat around the bush what these guys are doing is a scam, and that is what RWG was produced to STOP. We have all got very comfy here with the ease of ordering etc. but let us not forget our purpose, which is to educate and prevent scamming. It's time to make a stand, so let's make it. Edge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 It takes balls to say it, or write it in this case. I kind of agree though...there has been an air of change in the year or more I've been here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajoesmith Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Wholeheartedly agree well said im talking the stand with you who wants to join????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Bold post. I can't fault it, though. My opinion is predictably supportive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Oh Boy!!!! I have no knowlege of the misdeeds described. Conspiracy theories are hard to prove. I think the bottom line is lousy products, outright deceptions and misrepresentations reflected in customer dissatisfaction. I agree, we have been seeing more of those from certain dealers. If Edge is in fact sitting on a large file of customer complaints that are growing in seriousness and frequency, there needs to be a public airing of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 If Edge is in fact sitting on a large file of customer complaints that are growing in seriousness and frequency, there needs to be a public airing of them. If he were, it wouldn't be his place to air them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 If he were, it wouldn't be his place to air them. A public free forum wouldn't be the place to air the specifics of customer complaints against dealers who are having their reputations called into question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreww Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I have had nothing but good experiences with the "cartel" dealers that I have done business with. However, it looks like there is definitely some unscrupulous dealings going on, and I believe they are not taking our community in a good direction. This site was set up as a safe haven for us to buy watches, free of scams and price gouging. It seems that several of our dealers have decided to band together and "fix" pricing. This "collusion" is not acceptable in the business world, and its not acceptable here. Its time to make ourselves heard, and I for one will no longer be doing business with any of the cartel dealers until these practices cease. andreww Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I have come to posess information regarding these complaints however, as Pug rightly said, it is not my place to disclose information pertaining to dealings between members and dealers, the onus is on these members themselves to post specifics, I am merely informing you of the outline of things I have come to know. There will however be some specifics coming soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 A public free forum wouldn't be the place to air the specifics of customer complaints against dealers who are having their reputations called into question? I didn't say that. I just said that if the complainers wanted their grievances to be posted publicly, they'd have done so themselves. If someone PMs you in confidence, it's considered bad form to post it publicly. Now, it's time for those who've been keeping quiet so as not to rock the boat to stand up. Of that I am in agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chubbchubb Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 No doubt, there is a wind of change blowing through the forums lately... let's see what "White Lies No.3" kicks off (sorry Edge... no meant to degrade your bold post in any way!) The biggest problem for me so far was the lack of contribution by the dealers (in question) on these threads. It was not like they were really defending their positions or giving truthful explanations of what's happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 What saddens me the most is there is undoubtedly going to be those coming out in support of these dealers, as they have had nothing but pleasant experiences, which is totally understandable.... BUT...this forum was not set up so you could buy one watch without hassle, and [censored] anyone else cos that's not your problem....It was set up as a safe haven away from the scams etc. Which is what we are now trying to do, we need to stand up and fight togetehr as a community and say we don't want to, collectively, be lied to or have ANY members cheated or deceived, because we wont stand for it. We have seen many dealers here, and at TRC or RWi come and go because of a couple of indiscretions, sometimes as little as 2 or 3 sometimes more, now what I am saying is we don't accept it from new dealers so why are we willing to blindly accept it from old ones. If this was a new dealer they would be history, I am not saying I want to get rid of these dealers, I don't, they do right by many customers, the issue is that they can't pick and choose when to be honest and trustworthy and when to [censored] us over, because we are a COMMUNITY not a bunch of individuals. Together as a COMMUNITY we can stamp this out, and demand change because we hols all the cards, they are nothing without us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I didn't say that. I just said that if the complainers wanted their grievances to be posted publicly, they'd have done so themselves. If someone PMs you in confidence, it's considered bad form to post it publicly. Now, it's time for those who've been keeping quiet so as not to rock the boat to stand up. Of that I am in agreement. Agreed. It has not been my perception that there is a large groundswell of dissatisfaction here with the implied dealers in question. There has been an intetesting, more nuanced debate about advertising language, but what Edge is suggesting is far more serious. If there is a database of silent, frightened to spill the beans for fear of being thrown off the gravy train customers, rest assured, you'll still be able to get your watches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I didn't say that. I just said that if the complainers wanted their grievances to be posted publicly, they'd have done so themselves. If someone PMs you in confidence, it's considered bad form to post it publicly. Now, it's time for those who've been keeping quiet so as not to rock the boat to stand up. Of that I am in agreement. Doubly agree! C'mon all you, air your greivances... Btw, I like the way Edge purposefully left out those 4 dealers in his list... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricky Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I'm with you on this Edge.... things have changed MASSIVELY since I first joined (old) RWG...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Btw, I like the way Edge purposefully left out those 4 dealers in his list... Four dealers that have proudly exclaimed that they are price fixing, by any chance? Well, I'll admit to not have heard King mention it, as I've only ever heard Josh, Andrew and Angus declare it openly, but still ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_uk Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I guess I am already taking the stand, there's been a few new reps lately that I'd love to have but I refuse to pay the inflated prices charged for them, when you actually sit back and think about the amount of money you're paying for some of these watches, that at the end of the day are just cheap copies that mostly no longer even contain decent movements, it's ridiculous, especially with the lack of quality control, you'd think with experience quality control would improve not decline, have a look at the quality of gen watch you can buy for the price of a HBB, infact what you can buy for a lot less. I mainly look to buy watches from other members nowadays, watches that have been checked and will be lower priced than new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Well this is a safe haven so we don't get scammed. I have been screwed once not getting what I paid for; If it happens again, shame on me... and shame on everyone here buying reps from those moving away from honest selling practices. The fiasco with the B&R $2 movement is just that. No way in the world was this a mistake, it was a move to gain financial advantage by deception. I have aleady voted with my feet, I highly suggest everyone thinks very carefully who they buy from from now on. Don't give in to this new 'business model'... it will only hurt everyone in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 A public free forum wouldn't be the place to air the specifics of customer complaints against dealers who are having their reputations called into question? I was also recently made aware of the BR/ Cheap Chinese Movement issue - as i Stated in the little white lies thread. "light ar" is totally different than ETA vs. 2$ Movement. If we don't stand up and say something - how are we any different than Replica House or those other Scam Sites Sure - They are selling a 150$ rep for 5 and 600 - But if were letting our dealers sell 90$ reps for 200 - Its a difference only in scale. This is completely innapropriate. I demand that those perpitrating this fraud stop Immediatly! I am also troubled that it appears in conjunction with this fraud there have been several dealers who have colluded to fix prices. The anti-competative nature of this is troubling, but coupled with the Movement fraud this becomes OUTRAGOUS. Again this is no different than Replica House or whatever they are called, where they post up several sites so it looks like their competing. I will not continue to tolerate on "my" board (yes i think we all should take ownership as a group) of knowing out right fraud. As anyone who reads my posts know i was Wholly against the RWI "5 star" system for exactly this reason - collusion ultimately leads to fraud and Greed. I understand that RWI has moved the thread about cheap movements in the B/R to the Loony Bin - Well - That shows you where their head is at. Members, its time to stand up. Either that or turn into the boards that we claim to save so many from. it pains me to make these statements, i have had great relationships with the dealers in question. I even likke them on a personal level, but what i have seen in recent weeks is causing me to rise above my personal needs and step up to what is better for us as a board. I hope that others do the same - so i'm not standing here by myself pissing in the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I guess I am already taking the stand, there's been a few new reps lately that I'd love to have but I refuse to pay the inflated prices charged for them, when you actually sit back and think about the amount of money you're paying for some of these watches, that at the end of the day are just cheap copies that mostly no longer even contain decent movements, it's ridiculous, especially with the lack of quality control, you'd think with experience quality control would improve not decline, have a look at the quality of gen watch you can buy for the price of a HBB, infact what you can buy for a lot less. I mainly look to buy watches from other members nowadays, watches that have been checked and will be lower priced than new. I'm just asking a question here, not taking any side, but could the price increases be explained by increased pressure, risk, and replacement liability assumed by the dealers in an enviornment where there's growing scrutney from IP infringement pressures and shippers? I kinda don't have a problem with higher prices per se. It's the misrepresentations that are the most egregious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usil Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 let's see what "White Lies No.3" kicks off While Pugwash started the original 'white lies...' thread he is no way alone in his concerns. This is a major concern for all members within this community, where we have come to enjoy some friendship and comeradery. If we are being taken advantage of then this is simply wrong, no matter who is doing it. We would not tolerate this from a non dealer member and we would welcome an open discussion from the dealers. I think most of us want to continue doing business with those called into question but we just want it to be an honest relationship. If there are errors of judgement let's talk of them openly and set the record straight so we can all clear the air and get back to doing what we love to do. Usil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I'm with you on this Edge.... things have changed MASSIVELY since I first joined (old) RWG...... Bricky! haven't seen ya in awhile... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chubbchubb Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 What saddens me the most is there is undoubtedly going to be those coming out in support of these dealers, as they have had nothing but pleasant experiences, which is totally understandable... that was the reason why I did not really post too much on Pug's thread. My dealings with one of the "cartel" guys have been nothing but pleasant and we communicated quite a bit and the person on the other end of email "sounded" nothing like some of the stuff I've read recently... So in essence, I had no first hand "bad" expertise and felt, I was not for me to be on the bashing front. On the other hand, there is general points like pricing cartels... of which I can state that I strongly oppose them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_uk Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 So the 4 are (in no particular order) Andrew Josh Angus ? Who is the 4th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricky Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Bricky! haven't seen ya in awhile... I'm still checking in from time to time... but I'm spending most of my time on TRC. Dunno, RWG is too fast for me somehow - times change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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