freddy333 Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 Repaustria's thread describing how he went to great lengths to create a more accurate looking (and possibly functional) HE valve for his vintage DRSD got me thinking about the wide variations in reps for the same model of watch and how each gets one thing right and another thing wrong. For example, I have a cheap Asian-based Comex non-date Sub (The el cheapo) that I got from a UK auction site 5+ years ago and I have been waiting for the POS movement to die so I could replace it with a more reliable ETA (the movement issue is another story for another thread). But a couple of months ago, I did a short tutorial showing how I modded el cheapo's HE valve to make it look exactly like a number of similar gen watches I have seen on Timezone and Antiquorum. The thing that got me thinking after reading Repaustria's story was the fact that my el cheapo Sub case came with a brilliantly executed REMOVABLE HE valve, and it looked very much like what Repaustria came up with after alot of work on his part. It was a small metal cylinder that fit into the HE hole in the case, but it has a small indentation that runs around one of the cylinder's ends through which a spring clip slides that fits into a cutout on the inside of the case and locks the HE assembly into place (it even has a rubber gasket seal). I seriously doubt this thing would actually function as a true HE valve, but since I am only interested in a watch that LOOKS like it has a functional HE valve, it was PERFECT after I removed the cylinder and filed down the exterior end to give it a flat, slightly darker appearance (which looked like many of the gen watches on Timezone and Antiquorum). So, at least for my purposes, here is an el cheapo Sub that came with a 'working' HE that with just a bit of effort (about 2 minutes to remove, file and reinstall the little cylinder) can be made to look like the real (vintage) thing. So, the first question I had was -- Why does my expensive Watchmaster/MBW case come with an el cheapo etching in the side of the case that looks like an etching in the side of the case while my el cheapo Sub came with a realistic looking and 'working' HE valve? What is wrong with this picture? So, the next question I had was -- If the factory that pumped out the el cheapo Comex sub can do it, why doesn't the factory that crafted the otherwise nicer and more accurate Watchmaster/MBW do the same? The point to all of this is that in my years of collecting, I have seen virtually every function and feature of a Rolex watch replicated to at or very near 100% visual accuracy, but I have never seen 1 rep watch that incorporated all of these functions and features on 1 rep watch. Why does every factory get at least one thing wrong? In the case of the HE valve, the Watchmaster/MBW maker chose to use (or make) a case with an etched HE valve instead of a more realistic 'working' one. I am not sure what the reasoning was to screw up an otherwise accurate DRSD case by etching the HE valve instead of fitting a 'working' one like the one on my el cheapo Comex Sub, but it certainly was not because it was impossible to produce a good one (and on an el cheapo rep to boot). And it is the same for just about every other feature and function on a rep Rolex watch -- It would be easy to produce a real '1:1' or 'PERFECT' rep with existing rep parts if one factory knew what was required and made the effort to locate only the correct parts. And there is no reason for such a PERFECT Rolex rep to cost any more than $200-$300, since all of the PERFECT components currently exist on reps in this price range. How about it sellers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 You are working from the assumption they want it to be perfect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted April 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 You are working from the assumption they want it to be perfect... Yes and I base that on the fact that many dealers advertise their (generally) more accurate models as being 'Perfect' or '1:1', etc. I just happen to be wearing my 2 year old Daytona 116520 now and it has another example of these vendor to vendor variations that I am talking about. The "A" font in DAYTONA on the dial is wrong -- it is pointed instead of having a flat top. But I have an older (el cheapo) 116520 (with a non-functional chrono) that has the correct (flattened "A") DAYTONA font. My 1 month old 116509 also has the correct DAYTONA font. And it is the same thing with virtually every rep I have seen -- Rep A gets the font right and the HE valve wrong. Rep B gets the font wrong and the HE valve right. Rep C gets both wrong, but the caseback right, yada, yada, yada. I know that at least a few of our sellers read these forums, so I know that they know what most of the gen watches look like and what the problems are. So I have to wonder why at least one of them does not offer a real visually PERFECT rep made from off the shelf existing rep parts and offered at the same price as the other watches that contain those parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eunomians Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 It's the flaws that keep customers buying more watches. If a perfect rep was made, then, well, that's it. It pays to make mistakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_cope Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 Have you ever noticed how many variations of a simple SS "modern" Submariner there are? If they came out with a perfect rep it would sell like hotcakes... until everyone who wanted a perfect sub had one... The way it stands dealers and makers can just "improve" one or two visual aspects on a proven seller with plenty of flaws (crown guards... date font... cyclops...etc. etc.) and suddenly they have a NEW sub that die-hard submariner fans will have to pick-up. I think they are afraid that the market will dry up as soon as a truly perfect rep comes out. That's just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted April 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 I see your point, but I think that is really just another excuse. I am sure there will always be more than enough demand to keep up with whatever supply of perfect reps the factories can produce. Do the gen watch companies lose sales because they produce quality watches? I do not think so. And actually I think if so-called visually 'Perfect' reps were all supplied with new, quality ETA movements, the current argument from buyers of gen watches that reps are poor quality would become a tough sell and sales of these 'Perfect' reps would only increase, cutting further into the gen marketplace. In fact, I believe that it would be the buyers of expensive gen watches who would then have to ask themselves if they are not crazy for spending so much money when they can get a rep that looks and functions (with an albeit shorter lifespan) for alot less cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poopypants Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 (edited) I look at it like this... 1:1 = not having to change manufacturing methods ever again!!! (which SHOULD be the focus for these manufacturers) but thats just me... but again... we are talking about ONE MODEL!!! the thing is... these guys look at methods to make a number of models using same movement and similar manufacturing processes... ultimately, what needs to happen is: REPLICATE GENUINE MOVEMENT! 1570,3035,3135 whatever! i would use any of the 3... that way, the cases are based on genuine movement specifications... hence 1:1 placement of everything for every RLX model inside and outside... 1:1 would also include the use of Genuine parts, REGARDLESS of what it is... But, truthfully... it will NEVER HAPPEN!!!! AND also, all this hype talk about "1:1" or "perfect"... not worth [censored], until you give everything I have stated above!!!!!!!!!! Also, I would pay the outrageous prices that these ebay case scammers are getting for some of these "1:1" or "Perfect" cases IF i got the above specs... Until then... i just dont see my collection growing as fast as it did when i first got into this hobby... Plus, i like my gens! haha PP Edited April 6, 2007 by poopypants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam1174 Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 No offense, but I have to disagree with the people who say that the rep manufacturers don't want to make a perfect rep because they want us to keep buying the upgrades. That doesn't make economic sense. A manufacturer that could produce a perfect rep at a reasonable price could corner the market on that particular rep. Most people only buy one engagement ring, but you don't see Debeers trying to push inferior diamonds in the hope that people will "upgrade". If you look at the rep market, it has been continually improving over the past few years. As the market for quality reps grows, the rep manufacturers continue to improve their products. Watches like the Ultimate PO are already indistinguishable as reps by everyone but the most astute observers. The problem with the Sub is that so many people are satisfied with a "decent" model, there is little incentive for the manufacturers to make a "perfect" version. The majority of casual rep buyers are looking for a Rolex because, in many cases, that is the only brand they know. The rep Rolex market is dominated by cheap reps of mediocre quality. In the short term we will probably see more nearly perfect Breitlings, Omegas, and Panerais, but to get a nearly perfect Sub, you are going to have to make the mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yt74 Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 I have to agree with SAM174, I would attribute the variation in flaws to to variations in production standards and sources. The few people who inhabit our little boards are the only rep buyers who obsess about all these little differences. To 99% of the general public, sweep seconds=GEN... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 No offense, but I have to disagree with the people who say that the rep manufacturers don't want to make a perfect rep because they want us to keep buying the upgrades. That doesn't make economic sense. A manufacturer that could produce a perfect rep at a reasonable price could corner the market on that particular rep. Most people only buy one engagement ring, but you don't see Debeers trying to push inferior diamonds in the hope that people will "upgrade". If you look at the rep market, it has been continually improving over the past few years. As the market for quality reps grows, the rep manufacturers continue to improve their products. Watches like the Ultimate PO are already indistinguishable as reps by everyone but the most astute observers. The problem with the Sub is that so many people are satisfied with a "decent" model, there is little incentive for the manufacturers to make a "perfect" version. The majority of casual rep buyers are looking for a Rolex because, in many cases, that is the only brand they know. The rep Rolex market is dominated by cheap reps of mediocre quality. In the short term we will probably see more nearly perfect Breitlings, Omegas, and Panerais, but to get a nearly perfect Sub, you are going to have to make the mods. Actually, in theory, the rep mfgs could collude as a cartel (dreaded word but correct from an antitrust standpoint here) and have a policy of never making a 1:1 sub. As long as they all stick to it, they all profits from new models. This actually makes great economic sense for them. Not saying it happens, but that it could. You get into messy points like new entrants to the market and forcing collusion, etc but I am simplifying here. In addition, I would think they might use more than economic muscle to keep people in line - can't call the justice dept. about someone strong-arming you about your rep factory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 No offense, but I have to disagree with the people who say that the rep manufacturers don't want to make a perfect rep because they want us to keep buying the upgrades. That doesn't make economic sense. A manufacturer that could produce a perfect rep at a reasonable price could corner the market on that particular rep. Most people only buy one engagement ring, but you don't see Debeers trying to push inferior diamonds in the hope that people will "upgrade". If you look at the rep market, it has been continually improving over the past few years. As the market for quality reps grows, the rep manufacturers continue to improve their products. Watches like the Ultimate PO are already indistinguishable as reps by everyone but the most astute observers. The problem with the Sub is that so many people are satisfied with a "decent" model, there is little incentive for the manufacturers to make a "perfect" version. The majority of casual rep buyers are looking for a Rolex because, in many cases, that is the only brand they know. The rep Rolex market is dominated by cheap reps of mediocre quality. In the short term we will probably see more nearly perfect Breitlings, Omegas, and Panerais, but to get a nearly perfect Sub, you are going to have to make the mods. I agree with you. Whatever else you want to say about these folks, they are smart, clever, talented and shrewd. Imagine that you knew nothing about reps and just bought a gen. If someone put one of the best currently available reps in your hand and told you what it cost, would you believe it to be possible? It would cost about $300 to build a perfect rep (since that's about what it cost Rolex back when I knew) and their labor is cheaper than Swiss. If they truly perfected it, who among us wouldn't pay $1000 for it in a heart beat? They are damn near there now with that close to perfect watches and rep movements selling for a fraction of that price. I think it can be done, and I think they'll do it. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Actually, in theory, the rep mfgs could collude as a cartel (dreaded word but correct from an antitrust standpoint here) and have a policy of never making a 1:1 sub. As long as they all stick to it, they all profits from new models. This actually makes great economic sense for them. Not saying it happens, but that it could. I see your point but consider the fact that Rolex spends a fortune fighting reps, and they have all the law enforcement authorities in the world for muscle. If all the manufacturers got together, I don't see how they could stop some rogue entrepreneur somewhere from putting them all out of business. Just my thoughts. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 (For those not looking at Time/Date stamps, this is a bump from 2007!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 (For those not looking at Time/Date stamps, this is a bump from 2007!) Hey, how ya be! I been away for a while huh! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 No worries, I started reading F333's post, and was like ~when did he get that rep?... Then it dawned on me, a blast from the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGGodwin Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 good read, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rek001 Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Guys, c'mon - the rep manufacturing process, it's cottage industries. There is no parts consistency from run to run. The general philosophy is "it's good enough for 99% of the market". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Even though this is a post from 4 years ago, nothing much has changed. the "perfect", 1:1, " "used a genuine as a model' marketing hype is just that. just hype. And, in actuality, with the type of replication hardware and software available, it would be possible, actually easy to replicate. In the real world, with the massive numbers of watch brands and models available, it's probably not and economically feasible idea. I also have changed my feelings about the concept that is bandied about quite frequently on this forum, that is that the rep manufacturers "build in" the mistakes and inaccuracies in order to sell the next generation model to the same folks that bought the version before the new one. The genuine watch manufacturers don't change their watches up every 6 months or so, and the still sell plenty of watches. The Rolex 16610 has been fairly unchanged since the 1980's. SEL's, non drilled lugholes, Superluminova in place of tritium, possibly a few other minor "tweaks", but the point is the watch is and has been selling like hotcakes. So my thoughts are that if the rep manufacturers did produce a perfect watch, it would sell and keep on selling, as there are always new buyers entering the market. I think that what we need to understand is the members of all the rep forums combined represent a miiniscule segment of the total replica warch trade. The vast majority of watches are being sold to buyers who aren't 1% as knowledgable as most of the "noob" members of the forums. The average buyer is perfectly happy if their new "Rolex" is a 95% copy of the real deal. Just look at most of the watches we see here on the Rolex forum. We "nitpick" the Hell out of them, but I guarantee, the average guy could wear one into a bar and not have any misgivings about bring "called out" for wearing a replica. Just doesn't happen. The rep manufacturers know this, and as long as the 95 percenters are selling like crazy, why would they change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 I think that what we need to understand is the members of all the rep forums combined represent a miiniscule segment of the total replica warch trade. The vast majority of watches are being sold to buyers who aren't 1% as knowledgable as most of the "noob" members of the forums. The average buyer is perfectly happy if their new "Rolex" is a 95% copy of the real deal. Just look at most of the watches we see here on the Rolex forum. We "nitpick" the Hell out of them, but I guarantee, the average guy could wear one into a bar and not have any misgivings about bring "called out" for wearing a replica. Just doesn't happen. The rep manufacturers know this, and as long as the 95 percenters are selling like crazy, why would they change. I think you're "dead on" - you put it in the proverbial nutshell. One thing I do know for sure - Josh would kill to be able to put something on his site that our resident WIS would all agree was perfect. As miniscule as our market segment is, we do buy a LOT of reps, even if you just look at Subs or SDs. The seller who could sell every Sub purchased by the illuminati few (and you know sales would go thru the roof as we'd all snag a handful knowing how these things can disappear), would make a ton of money! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Some well thought-out points here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetor Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 well, what I don't get is why can't we make our own reps instead of buying them. Especially for vintage Rolexes. How hard is it to actually make one? I'm pretty sure making a watch case etc etc would cost less than the $1k that NDT is charging. Even DW for example, would not even consider buying NDT because he said it's too expensive and he makes his own cases I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 How hard is it to actually make one? Making a watch takes a great deal of time, expertise, tools (with the know-how to use them) & patience. You can get an idea of what is involved here. I'm pretty sure making a watch case etc etc would cost less than the $1k that NDT is charging. Even DW for example, would not even consider buying NDT because he said it's too expensive and he makes his own cases I think. I agree. It should be relatively easy & cheap, once you have the required raw steel & tooling setup. DW owns a factory, so he would know. Also, & more importantly, the only difference between the case that comes with a $50 Canal Street rep & 1 of Phong's or NDT's $1,500 cases are the dimensions. The quality of steel is the same, the construction, in most cases, is done in the same factories that produce the cheap stuff &, from my experience, there is no more QC involved in making the $1,500 case than there is for the $50 rep. The only difference that I can see are the dimensions & the story that accompanies the item from the seller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgking Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 As an American that has been living and working in Asia for nearly 20 years, my observation of Asian (read: primarily Chinese) culture is that details do not matter. They just want to wip something up as fast as they can, which sort of looks similar, or close enough (to fool 90% of the people)...and get the money (as fast as they can). A desire for perfection, skilled craftsmanship, artistry, pride in your work, are not part of the genetic makeup of this part of the world (anymore). The only exception I can see would be Japan. But the rest of Asia is pretty much a 'quick buck' culture. Western companies that come to this part of the world for cheaper manufactoring, really have to be on top of things just to get their specs and tolerances up to their own standards. But it is a battle all the way. If I had a nickle for every time I had to go back and try to get somebody to get it right...I'd be a gazillionaire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted April 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 They just want to wip something up as fast as they can, which sort of looks similar, or close enough (to fool 90% of the people)...and get the money (as fast as they can). No argument there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabularasa415 Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 I have to agree with SAM174, I would attribute the variation in flaws to to variations in production standards and sources. The few people who inhabit our little boards are the only rep buyers who obsess about all these little differences. To 99% of the general public, sweep seconds=GEN... I really hate to have to agree here, but as soon as I received my newly acquired completely un-modded MBW DRSD I had to wear it immediately. I own quite a few gens and a few close co-workers know I'm a watch freak and are constantly looking to see what I have on. I received so many compliments on my (supposedly 30-something year-old) watch, and the whole time I'm glaring down at it thinking that all of the tells are going to get me arrested by the faux pas police and that I'll never be able to show my face in the office again...BUT...no one can tell. Only we freaks, my friends. We spend so much time and energy and $$$ making sure that our fake watches look real that sometimes I think about my obsessive compulsions when it comes to these watches and I laugh. Hell, my local watch guy knows I have reps and every time I go in to look at what he has for sale he asks to look at my watch -- we make a game of it. He gets his big jeweler's loupe/hat thing on and studies it while I play with his gens in the case and he guesses gen or rep, and honestly, it's a coin toss as to whether or not he'll get it right (and the man knows watches). Find it hard to believe? You shouldn't. He doesn't sit around studying the imperfections in quality reps for hours on end like we do. I know, I'll get down from my soapbox. My point is that 1 in 10,000 people know watches like we know watches, and even far less know as much about reps and gens as we do. Speaking of soapbox, I seriously forget what the Hell we've been chatting about in this thread. Let me catch back up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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