jake48 Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 (edited) Yeah, but I know... at least the watch in his pictures is. I've owned 2 of them, and I have eyes in my head. By-Tor, This, I think, is were a lot of the confusion comes from. If you go to WM9's web site and CAREFULLY read what he has posted you will see that WM9 was very clear as to identifying what watch is the 1:1 pre-order watch. The pictures he has provided that he claims are "fully identical to authentic" look just that too me - fully identical to the Gen. The confusion seems to come from people in this thread who took his link, which is clearly identified as "Here are the links to the detailed pictures of the previously made and all sold out VIP's 2005 F-Serial Submariner 16610 and 16613:" as a link to the pre-order case yet to be released. The previous years model does in fact look like some of the subs we have seen from our dealers who were selling them for far less, however, you should take into consideration that some dealers were offering essentialy the same thing as he was offering (bear in mind he claimed to have the watches fully serviced and waterproofed) for essentialy the same price - "Perfect subs" going for around $400.00 to $500.00 - remember? I don't remember people screaming that our dealers were "scammers". Anyway, if you read closely, you would also note that the follow up pictures WM9 posted at the end of the pre-order case photo's are clearly marked "16610 Pre-Manufacturing Sample Dial" and "16613 Pre-Manufacturing Sample Blue Dial" even though the pictures show a sub in it's entirety. This is pretty plain english to me and I took it as - here is a picture of what the dial will look like. No where does WM9 say that "this is what the watch will look like". It seemed obvious to me that since the very pictures depicting the pre-production watch case were labeled "The Pre-Manufacturing Samples of the 2007 Z-Serial Submariner 16610 and 16613" and the pictures that followed were clearly labeled as samples of the "dial" he was not showing the watch in it's final stages as he had already stated that the watch had yet to be finished. What happened in this thread is an example of what I call "dog piling" someone miss-reperesented WM9 and every one else took what was posted as gospel and started railing away at WM9 without even going to look at his web site for themselves. In short, there are no completed pictures of the finished new case sub that WM9 is building, thus all this talk about "it is just a noobmariner" is hogwash based on ignorance. Go look for yourself. This is not to say if WM9 does not produce the watch as he has pictured (case only) he is a bullsh!tter - but it still remains to be seen. Again, I would ask that you go back and check his site out. If that case is made, there will be a line of people who will want one... Edited June 13, 2007 by jake48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 (edited) @Jake: Don't try to misrepresent my words. I already cleared up the confusion many posts ago. Scroll back this thread and see for yourself. I'm well aware that the project watch in the pictures isn't a Noobmariner, but the one that he previously sold for $550 is. It's true that it IS a good rep, arguably the "best Sub"... but that's an obnoxious price and we all know it. I don't think it's an attack against "George's character" to be skeptical about the whole thing. I don't quite get it why you feel so heavily about this. Those "perfect" Subs that were sold by other dealers got very bad reviews from the community as well. Those were crap reps (visually) and we called them out. I'm also VERY skeptical about all "water proofness" and QC claims from ALL dealers, not just George. That's my "duty" as a veteran member to keep the information in this forum unbiased and reliable. BUT... if this one turns out to be great we have no reason to put the product down. I simply look at the product and the facts... not how I feel about the seller. I don't care whether George is an [censored] or not... if he can provide us a great rep it's definitely welcome here. Members can then decide themselves if it's worth the price he's asking for. The end result is more competition... and better reps for the members. How could we have anything against that? Edited June 14, 2007 by By-Tor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake48 Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 (edited) @Jake: Don't try to misrepresent my words. I already cleared up the confusion many posts ago. Scroll back this thread and see for yourself. I'm well aware that the project watch in the pictures isn't a Noobmariner, but the one that he previously sold for $550 is. It's true that it IS a good rep, arguably the "best Sub"... but that's an obnoxious price and we all know it. I don't think it's an attack against "George's character" to be skeptical about the whole thing. I don't quite get it why you feel so heavily about this. Those "perfect" Subs that were sold by other dealers got very bad reviews from the community as well. Those were crap reps (visually) and we called them out. I'm also VERY skeptical about all "water proofness" and QC claims from ALL dealers, not just George. That's my "duty" as a veteran member to keep the information in this forum unbiased and reliable. BUT... if this one turns out to be great we have no reason to put the product down. I simply look at the product and the facts... not how I feel about the seller. I don't care whether George is an [censored] or not... if he can provide us a great rep it's definitely welcome here. Members can then decide themselves if it's worth the price he's asking for. The end result is more competition... and better reps for the members. How could we have anything against that? By-Tor, Well stated and understood. I certainly agree that it is healthy to be "skeptical about the whole thing" I just don't think saying things like WM9 has been scamming people for years is the same as being skeptical. That's all... As far as "don't try to misrepresent my words." I am not sure what you mean. The post of yours that I quoted and was refering too was quite simple; I wrote: QUOTE(jake48 @ Jun 13 2007, 09:18 PM) * I do not know if WM9's watch is for sure a "noobmariner" (In response to the above) you wrote Yeah, but I know... at least the watch in his pictures is. I've owned 2 of them, and I have eyes in my head. Did I miss something? I took this to mean that you were saying you knew that the watch that has not been released yet (if you go back to my post were you took my quotes from you I think you can see that is what I was talking about) was just a noobmariner. Maybe you misunderstood me. if I wrote confusingly, i am sorry. I hope I have cleared things up. And I do appreciate your vigilance! Edited June 14, 2007 by jake48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Maybe we BOTH misunderstood eachother. I wrote this a few days ago: Hey... the project watch in the pictures isn't a Noobmariner. But the watch that is LINKED from the project page is. http://www.watchmaker9.tv/products/rolex_0...iner_16610T.htm I browsed the page sloppily and thought that he was showing the final product there (a Noobmariner), but apparently the project watch is going to look different. But remember the old saying... pictures prove absolutely nothing. Either way, selling a $200 watch for $550 is a bit gross... which was my original point. That doesn't make him a scammer though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake48 Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 (edited) Maybe we BOTH misunderstood eachother. I wrote this a few days ago: Hey... the project watch in the pictures isn't a Noobmariner. But the watch that is LINKED from the project page is. http://www.watchmaker9.tv/products/rolex_0...iner_16610T.htm I browsed the page sloppily and thought that he was showing the final product there (a Noobmariner), but apparently the project watch is going to look different. But remember the old saying... pictures prove absolutely nothing. Either way, selling a $200 watch for $550 is a bit gross... which was my original point. That doesn't make him a scammer though. Yeah, I chuckle at myself sometimes - I think I need to take my own advise and slow down a little. Eiither way, I believe we are on the same page and I appreciate your candor and straight forward approach. Edited June 14, 2007 by jake48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 We're all hoping that this case will be as good as advertised. However, if it is as good as he says, I am pretty certain that it will be available from everyone shortly after for under $300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Final version pics have been added ubt are not taken in the same positions as the other Z photos. I'm unsure if it is the same case even. Looks very much like a TW to me with slight alterations. Just noticed that the dial is very different in it's printing. The font style is very much TW/MBW and not like the original pre-production pictures lower on the page. I think Taiwan have modified the already existing MBW version and this is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 This is the regular Sub we already have access to. Misplaced crown, old dial, etc. Scam? Hoax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poopypants Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 2007 Z-Serial Submariner 16610 & 16613 Watchcase, fully identical to authentic. The rant: Dude... So, after all of those case pics... George points out that a gen insert pops in... whoopdy f'n doo!!! Sure, its ONE STEP FORWARD!! How about that ASS dial! ONE STEP BACK!! So plan on purchasing a new dial... Show me how a genuine crystal "pops" in there... accordingly to the description quoted above, it fits correctly, right?!?! Show me how the gen bracelet fits... accordingly to the description quoted above, it fits correctly, right?!?! Positives Date Font and Mag look great! Finish looks great... need to feel it of course... Awaiting more pics! -PP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribal Posted June 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 (edited) New pics... looks good to me i think Edited June 15, 2007 by Tribal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake48 Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 (edited) The rant: Dude... So, after all of those case pics... George points out that a gen insert pops in... whoopdy f'n doo!!! Sure, its ONE STEP FORWARD!! How about that ASS dial! ONE STEP BACK!! So plan on purchasing a new dial... Show me how a genuine crystal "pops" in there... accordingly to the description quoted above, it fits correctly, right?!?! Show me how the gen bracelet fits... accordingly to the description quoted above, it fits correctly, right?!?! Positives Date Font and Mag look great! Finish looks great... need to feel it of course... Awaiting more pics! -PP Actually, I think it is one of the better dials I have seen (Except for the S in submariner) Here is a picture of 2007 Z Gen for comparison. Edited June 15, 2007 by jake48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Actually, I think it is one of the better dials I have seen (Except for the S in submariner) Apart from the 1 vs I on the 1000M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poopypants Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 (edited) RLX is completely off... not aligned correctly... in fact, every letter is written/painted incorrectly! defenitiely not as nice as the noob dial... as for gen 2007 models... RLX went with what seems like sharper serif's... this dial however: every part of each letter has soft edges... SUBMARINER is... ummm... wrong! I think this is the exact dial of the old TW models... dont get me wrong... i was little harsh in saying 'whoopdy f'n doo' about the bezel... this is a huge step to be able to swap bezels easily... (without grinding) especially if you have gen black and green... so, i take that back... awesome upgrade! however... All they need to do was make the date hole a little larger and the old noob dial would have been almost perfect! (maybe, sharpen up the markers, but hey they look good regardless...) another thing i can see in the pics is how clean the endlinks COULD end up looking... In picture 4, the groove on the bottom of the case looks really cleanly done! hopefully this means a tighter more genuine looking fit and finish... another thing that pops out at me in that picture is... is it me or can you see what looks like the "610" from a 16610 sticker?!?! in seeing that, these must be readily available from the manufacturer if he received the "final" version with a sticker... And with all the dealers throwing around terms like 1:1 and just like genuine... could he be portraying and marketing this new, but readily available product as a "custom" build he had part in?!?!?! Case Shape looks good... i dont know... looking to far into it... whatever... i want to see how good the rehaut is... meaning, i want to see if the white spacer ring is visible throughout the edge of the crystal... hate that! i think he needs to send one to TTK, and have him take pictures of it... For some reason his light box and camera setup can make poop look expensive! Edited June 16, 2007 by poopypants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 The infamous m and M alignment is a bit off too. And I agree the Noob dial is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 I addition to the many nuanced differences pointed our by out crack staff, the fit and finish on the genuine dial is amazing compared the rep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake48 Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 (edited) RLX is completely off... not aligned correctly... in fact, every letter is written/painted incorrectly! defenitiely not as nice as the noob dial... as for gen 2007 models... RLX went with what seems like sharper serif's... this dial however: every part of each letter has soft edges... SUBMARINER is... ummm... wrong! I think this is the exact dial of the old TW models... Definetely not a TW best dial. I have one. On the TW best the "S" in submariner is different and the 1 in 1000ft is different I think it all seems to work for the better when we pull out the microscope and disect watches to the Nth degree. We all get better watches. Sometimes I think we get a little carried away though, especially when I read and have seen with my own eyes that even Rolex has variances (not much different than what we are nit pick'n here) from dial to dial, even with in the same model and same year. I posted this at another site and find it very interesting. Notice the difference in the location and font of "SWISS MADE", the different serif's and the "soft edges" to the lettering on one of the dials. Who is to say when you pick apart a dial with a 10x loop it is wrong? Maybe ROLEX is using Rep dials This was taken from a post on another sight: These dials are both from the cuurent model GMT Master II: Here is the link (paste it into your browser and fix the http): hXXX://jholbrook.proboards33.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1181846535 Edited June 16, 2007 by jake48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poopypants Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 ok Jake, dial aside... 2007 Z-Serial Submariner 16610 & 16613 Watchcase, fully identical to authentic. Looking at the description one last time... (i swear no more quotes) It does say "Watchcase"... uber-good marketing... cuz, i am betting on nothing genuine fitting on this damn thing... (bezel insert, yet to be verified) And i doubt the rehaut will be "fully identical to authentic"... see where i am going with this?!?! PP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake48 Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 ok Jake, dial aside... Looking at the description one last time... (i swear no more quotes) It does say "Watchcase"... uber-good marketing... cuz, i am betting on nothing genuine fitting on this damn thing... (bezel insert, yet to be verified) And i doubt the rehaut will be "fully identical to authentic"... see where i am going with this?!?! PP PP - Don't get me wrong. I have my doubts about WM9 and sure enough when you look at his dial pictures there are differences from the first dial he showed to the second. Is this because he is concocting some big conspiracy to steal our hard earned money with inferior rep watches or are they honest mistakes? Really, untill someone gets a watch in thier hands, we are all just speculating. I understand the skeptisicsm about WM9, he has sold watches for a substantialy higher price then we can get for much cheaper from the dealers we all know. But in trying to be fair, I do not know of one instance were WM9 ripped someone off or scammed someone by telling them they would get a Swiss Movm'nt when they were sent an Asian Movm'nt as an example. I also think that WM9, from what I have read, has always tried to follow up and resolve any issues with disastisfied customers, sometimes even involving refunds. I have asked some of the people who slammed WM9 to tell us exactly how WM9 scammed them or have some one you know step up and say how WM9 stole thier money and it was dead silent. Not one! I don't even know of anyone who has ever purchased or held in thier own hands a watch from WM9 - everyone seems to me to be going by hearsay or pictures from the web. And anyone who has been around the web for a while certaintly would agree that being found guilty from hearsay and pictures taken from the web is not very credable. The only real way to resolve all the speculation is to buy one of his watches and look for ourselves. I am going to do that (buy a 16613). If it doesn't take Gen parts with out modding, trust me, we will find out. If it has cr@ppy 18k plating, we will know. If the rehaut is off, we can all b!tch together. Unless WM9 doesn't want my money we should know in the next month or so. Untill someone actually gets a watch, I wouldn't bank on anything that is being said by anyone, including the BS I write. It's just that, a bunch of guys just bull$h!tting as if they know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellomen Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 i guess untill now i am sceptical... i haven't seen any submariner or SD come close to the gen. Always the problem with the crown sitting too low in the case for sure. I know some members told me that this was because of the ETA movement. Sounds plausible... but... how does Tudor pull it of to use a rolex oyster case and fit in an ETA 2824-2 ??? I wished they could make a true 1:1 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribal Posted June 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 And a Tudor Submarinercase is not the same case as the Rolex Sub... Shallow rehaut etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poopypants Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 Jake, cant wait for the b*tch session! hahaha i cant remember commenting on his pricing... But, It is HIGH!! but like you and i have said, until its in our hands and on the desk getting torn apart and put back together with genuine parts, nothing much to talk about but doubt and speculation... im just sick of the false marketing in this hobby... but at the same time, it led me to get my gens... which has also increased my needs/wants of updates to these models... however, my true feelings about this (right now)... revert to line 1 of this post! lol PP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake48 Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 Jake, cant wait for the b*tch session! hahaha i cant remember commenting on his pricing... But, It is HIGH!! but like you and i have said, until its in our hands and on the desk getting torn apart and put back together with genuine parts, nothing much to talk about but doubt and speculation... im just sick of the false marketing in this hobby... but at the same time, it led me to get my gens... which has also increased my needs/wants of updates to these models... however, my true feelings about this (right now)... revert to line 1 of this post! lol PP No matter how it turns out, I have had fun and that is why I got into this crazy addiction (collecting watches) of ours. I went the other way - started buying Gens and then found reps! (more watches for the bucks) right now I am split down the middle - Reps to Gens - but the reps are taking over! BTW - Strange avatar ya got there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellomen Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 .... rep makers would finally use those damn longer wheels which are available so easy, they could use a 2824-2 - this would improve the situation. Thanx Oliver... that's helpful information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellomen Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 And a Tudor Submarinercase is not the same case as the Rolex Sub... Shallow rehaut etc... the vintage rolex also have a more shallow rehaut... i don't know how this is on the modern version but i assume Oliver's idea could help a lot! It all comes down to which movement you use... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luisik Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 The reason for the negative comments is because WM9 has been scamming people for years, even sending shills over here with adverts pretending to be reviews. His outrageously overpriced watches were $550 noobmariners. Everything he says is liable to be taken with a huge pinch of salt because we've had a year of his vastly overinflated claims and shills. It's more experience than ignorance. If sharing your thoughts, then we would have to say Joshua and Andrew are Scammers compared to Ruby, TTK, Narikaa or Paul... but it seems none here is worried for paying them that much... so, what's the difference then with WM9 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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