Unknown ETA 2824 Movement - More info gathered.

[RWG Technical]

Unknown ETA Movement

DISCLAIMER

I can't verify that this movement is or isn't an ETA. But it is different than any other ETA I have seen or worked on. It's marked as ETA, and ETA does produce at least 5 versions of the 2824-2, of varying quality and fit and finish.

EDIT

It is not my intention to mislead anyone, or state that this movement is indeed a Asian Copy of an ETA or a ETA of a different grade...

I have changed the text as such.

Now, let me start by adding this comment up front:

I am basing my comments and conclusions on my own experience, that

[jdavis]

Very interesting and well done report as usual, Rob. Thanks for your efforts to keep us in the know about this. With this information, I will be looking closely at a couple of my movements. It looks as though the Asian and Eta components may interchange. Do you think that is the case?

[Rxus]

Hmm it's been discussed before but, is it soo hard to imagine? A replica of a popular movement, but executed to a level that would confuse most untrained watch collectors.

Ohh and great shots btw!

By comparison there is no way these movements are both ETA

[JJFlash]

First they replicate the watches.

Now they replicate the movements.

Not too surprised this happens with the new ETA movement shortage.

We shall see more of these imitations in the future.

I would hope dealers market these as Asian ETA copy and not genuine ETA.

I am impressed with this movement copy.

Could have easily passed as authentic by my eye.

It appears to be reasonably well made, save some cosmetic blemishes.

Maybe not an ETA - but a good copy overall.

Time will prove whether this movement has durability.

[llsteve80]

Very informative and awesome pics, I had a 2824 sitting here on my desk as I was reading so I was able to compare. Mine came out of a Gruen, so I know it's the real deal. Good eye on that stuff. I had a couple of posts on this thing, mainly about swapping out with my DG2813, I was just posting in another thread where a member was talking about his stopping, and I look down at mine at it was also stopped...wierd.

Anyway, The Zigmeister, I'll be putting my 2824 in the watch in a few weeks or so now, and I remember you saying that you never had the chance to do a breakdown and review of this DG2813 that supposedly is 28800bph, I'm wondering if you would like to check mine out? It's acting a little iffy, so I wouldn't want it back, but I am curious to see how good/bad these movements are as it seems they may be using them more. What I do know is that the factory sells them for $4 a piece in lots of 100, so I don't imagine them being very reliable.

Almost forgot to ask, how does this eta copy compare the the other 2824 copy with no markings? Does it appear to be the same thing, just with engravings, or something totally different?

Edited November 6, 2007 by llsteve80

[Guest watchbuff]

So are the prices of these asian wannabe ETA's going to rival the swiss? I hope not, prices should be driopped and dealers better know what they are selling.

[Jetsons]

This is an amazing post & pictorial, The Zigmeister! It is also an outstanding observation on your part and quite an eye opener.

First thing I noticed was the inferior finish of the components on the CN copy compared to the authentic ETA. It is quite obvious specially on th nickel finished parts. The machining also seems to be of higher quality on the ETA. It would also appear that the copy movements are also not exactly assembled in a clean room and perhaps improperly lubricated.

Based on this information, I'm not enthusiatic to add watches to my collection with this type movement at anywhere close to ETA prices. Perhaps the copy is reliable but only time will tell if this is true. I wonder how many watches advertised as having an authentic "ETA" actually have this copy movement?

Many thanks for posting this! IMO, this is not a good development.

[Nightstroker]

That is an incredible review Zig....unbelievable photos!....you are the macro master!....lol....cant believe the Chinese are seriously doing this....I have never seen a gold 2834-2 either....was not aware that ETA even made one....I thought the 2834-2 was always silver in color....they should have stamped 2836-2 on that movement....perhaps that is a dead give away....yes there are many differences!....after seeing all of your photos I cant believe the damn thing even runs!

[Sweattdogg]

Awesome review The Zigmeister! Great attention to detail. As many others said, it was only a matter of time, before the chinese just copied the movement rather than source that part out. Seems like they did a pretty good job, as most just pulling off the back wouldn't even know any better. It would be great to see a breakdown of the movement. If it gets The Zigmeister's thumbs up, then it's cool with me.

[lanikai]

You alway's out do yourself Ziggy..thankyou

this may be a rookie question.. but i am a rookie.. so... how will the crude machining affect the movements performance over time? how will the granular metal affect the overall funtion of the movement?

[woody]

Rob, thank you for your usual great reviews. the first thing that I'll be looking from this point on is the shock absorber. I think that will be the easiest for us n00bs to start out at. The click wheels are a big tell; but unles you take out some parts, you are not going to see that. I think Angus is advertising his new Ingenieur with double AR with either true ETA, and Asian Copy ETA. so that is good on his end. Again, thanks for the nice review Rob, and I can't wait to get my EVO back.....

[SportsterRider]

Like you, I wonder why they bother with the ETA markings? Are these destined to find their way into legit watches? Is it just to 'fool' replica buyers? As a rep buyer, I don't need the ETA markings, ya know? I'm just happy to see that they've duplicated this movement as this, one would think, be FAR cheaper than a 'real' ETA, and assuming a complete teardown shows good quality, should provide similar performance to a gen ETA.

Thanks for the great teardown and photo's!!

[bwhitesox]

Of course this is to fool us into paying more money...Why else would they do this?

[hottoddy]

How many believe this movement is accurately represented? Let the profit margins rise!

[italiano17771]

with what i just read is it safe to say this....

the dealers are selling copies of the eta mvmt as a real "eta" movement??

[Bravoz]

To conclude all this, I think it comes down to the price of the watch. Asian ETA is fine.

But for dealers to mark a price for a Asian ETA same as Swiss ETA will just be plain cheating.

I'm glad this came out before I order a rep.

Thanks Zig.

PS: Dealers should read this post. =)

[bwhitesox]

Yea but the asian ETA copy doesn't have the ETA markings right...The only reason to put the ETA markings on this movement is to pass it off as a real swiss ETA and therfore charge people Swiss ETA prices.

I think we'll find that we already have watches with this movement in them and sold as swiss. In fact I know this is the case.

[Bravoz]

I know what I'd be doing though if I get an Asian ETA and the watch is advertised as Swiss ETA

Edited November 6, 2007 by Bravoz

[Stephane]

Wow Rob.

Thanks for this pictorial.

Other than the differences in markings, no one else could have spot this asain Eta replica.

I guess that we will all open our watches again and compare what is in it to your pictures !

Now, the real question is the quality of these Eta clones!

Will they be reliable in the end?

I suppose we'll need some time to check that.

Thanks for all,

Stephane

[r11co]

ASIAN Sock Absorber

FIRST clue

[Pix]

Thx for this awesome review ! Makes us further aware that we always must be careful about what we're told by manufacturers/dealers.

That's for me the final argument to continue trying to source reps with Asian movements rather than Swiss : why would we pay more expensive for something that will anyway not be serviceable or repairable with standard parts ?

The problem is that the manufacturers always make it in a clever manner : it's often more difficult to find Asian movements in high end cases. So if you want the nice case, you have to go with the corresponding movement...Swiss or not.

Same old question, as I still have doubts about the movement in my Nautilus : does this movement's rotor wind in both directions ?

[freddy333]

Very interesting.....

But I think the real question is whether these differences in machining & component design will affect the lifespan of the movement. Based on the timing readout, the movement's performance does not seem to have been effected to any noticeable degree.

[POTR]

We've heard that ETA movements are graded, but Zigs has not seen any evidence of there being substandard ones. Maybe he now has?!

I don't think ETA would press their balance wheel on the staff upside down... even IF they intentionally made a lesser finished movement.

And The Zigmeister, is that really just "gunk" on the pallet jewels or are those oversized, nasty inclusions? (meaning a fracture waiting to happen...)

And is that Kif mounted balance staff jewel just a little over oiled, or is that me?

[Guest TTK]

First and foremost......nobody has the right to be judge ..jury and executioner here.....why?.....because we simply DO NOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN that this is an Asian 'rep' movement.....ETA has a number of Asian plants....including a movement manufacturing plant 35 miles outside Bangkok......so there is just as much possibility that it may be an Asian ETA movement as there is of it being a 'cloned' ETA movement.........it could be manufactured to ETA spec ...albeit slightly different in terms of parts and finishing......this is very common in all industries...not just watches......!

The key question is ...do the hands go round and round...and tell the time.....if yes....what's the problem........the lack of fine finishing is only important on load bearing surfaces....if there is no load.....no friction....no need for highly polished parts...unless it is to be used in an open caseback watch.....!

Whilst I have every respect for The Zigmeister's watchsmithing experience.....it's beyond the ken of all men to be 100% certain of anything.....the important thing here is that we understand the movement in terms of reliability and longevity.....properly serviced and lubed it is probably well capable of doing the same job as it's perceived ETA equivalent......proof of that is available from The Zigmeister himself......I sold him a 188 around 3 years ago....cloned Asian 7750 mov't......in fact he got his from the 1st batch I sold....my own 196 came from that same batch.....and has been running for the last 3 years with absolutely no servicing ......The Zigmeister will....without doubt...confirm that many of these Asian movements.....cloned or not...are very good running movements.....!

Let's keep it real....no dealer can inspect internally every watch that he sells.....if my suppliet tells me that it's genuine ETA....I'm not gonna doubt her..... given the very low return rate that I have .....she has never lead me wrong.....that's good enough for me!

[Bravoz]

TTK:

IMHO, no one is complaining about reliability and longetivity but rather the cost of the 'Asian' ETA being sold as 'Swiss' ETA.

=)

They should be priced accordingly.