anton Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I am fed up with the dealers and their choice of words to describe the new rep models that come out on the market! And you all know you've seen it before: Ultimate, Best, VERY BEST, Super, Exact, 1:1 (maybe even 2:1, but I'm not talking bets here) IMO, all these choice words are a lie. I'd prefer "New Version" or "Close Enough" rather than the words above. Now, I know that those are just marketing ploys to entice the buyer, but one buyer does have a certain expectation when they buy a watch with one of the words above preceding it, right? I mean, you might think they would at least test the thing; after all, you spend not $65, but $368+ for them. I just say this because I am tired of a floppy CG, a broken stem from the crown, stickers falling off rotors, misaligned bezel, etc. With that being said, I probably still won't stop buying reps. I just would like to bring up what bothers me about the rep buying experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dario33 Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 2:1 ...I like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jawo Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I agree with you about the 1:1 or "perfect" term. These are sunonomous with the perception of identical replicas which don't exist. I don't mind the term Ultimate or Super rep because these do not define perfection or exactness. We have to keep in mind that these terms are used as marketing ploys and we have to be very thankful of these forums to inform us of the imperfections of these reps. Take the terms in stride and read up on the forums before making your decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pix Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 IMO, all these choice words are a lie. They are... Worst is that these terms are not little lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 While I hear you, I would say that it's marketing and meant to be taken with a grain of salt. As with everything in life, temper your expectations, don't believe everything you read, and most importantly do your homework. No rep is perfect. We know this. "Ultimate", however, seems reasonable. The UPO, for example, is the ultimate PO rep, right? Would you agree that it's the best available PO rep? So it is the ultimate (but still not perfect). 1:1 is perhaps the most controversial, IMO. 1:1 to me means case and case part dimensions in relation to the gen. It should also refer to hand lengths, dial marker sizes, etc. I don't ever expect perfection in every aspect of a 1:1 rep though, and yet I still think 1:1 is not only a reasonable term if used truthfully to refer to CNC dimensioning, but also a necessary one because I DO want to know when a rep has been designed based on gen dimensions... -Chief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anton Posted February 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I'll concede and say that a "Close Enough" PAM 092 (for example) won't draw me in as much as a "Ultimate" PAM 092 would. But when you want to claim the title of "Ultimate", I'd like to see that many of the flaws that plagued the preceding model would be corrected (that's why there's second chances). I'll admit that I started this posting because I recently purchased an 092 "Ultimate" and within a week of owning it all of a sudden the crown broke off its' stem, the CG became loose, the lug screws lost their threads, and the rotor stickers fell off! I could deal with all that becuase up until the 28th of this month, it does not affect the fuctionality of the watch. Isn't it funny when something (anything) seems to work perfectly UNTIL it gets into your hands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreww Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 More than likely the terms like "Ultimate" were originated here on the boards. The dealers saw it was successful and ran with it. About a year ago I coined the phrase "Lite" in reference to my asian Planet Ocean which was an exact duplicate of the UPO but with an asian movement. Now I see the term "Lite" applied to every cheap asian version, even if it is lacking sapphire, AR, steel movement holder, antimagnetic cover, etc, etc. Its frustrating to say the least. Just read through the BS, don't be overanxious to buy, and wait for some solid reviews and you will do fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raijor Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I simply do not believe any hype coming from sellers of reps. They can say whatever they want no rep will be the "ultimate. It can be very good but that is about as far as it goes. If people do fall for this hype they deserve what what they get. Shame on the dealer for fooling them the first time but shame on the buyer for falling for it a second time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsmith11 Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I couldn't agree more! As a noob in this industry I did lots of research on PAMS and ended up buying an Ultimate 111h. Then when I received it it was missing l swiss l and the hands were a diff color than the numbers. When I complained that an Ultimate shouldnt have these stupid flaws I was called a "whiner" lol. If you are going to sell Ultimates or Best then at least have the balls to check it prior to shipping it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodwc Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 You are wanting and expecting to hear words you understand to be perfect. The salesman "plants" the seed, you yourself, then sell it to yourself. The worlds worst salesman isn`t going to run his stock down, with accurate descriptions, take it for what it is. Years ago antique dealers furniture was described with words as, Fantastic, superb, brilliant, excellent, Rare, when in actual fact they were nothing more than run of the mill pieces, available anywhere. Try accepting the whole deal with a pinch of salt, I am sure you will enjoy it more. "Such is life." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellomen Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Good point Anton... not the first time this comes up, but apperently nothign has changed for the better in the past year... i guess prices only have gone up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 I agree with you about the 1:1 or "perfect" term. These are sunonomous with the perception of identical replicas which don't exist. I don't mind the term Ultimate or Super rep because these do not define perfection or exactness. We have to keep in mind that these terms are used as marketing ploys and we have to be very thankful of these forums to inform us of the imperfections of these reps. Take the terms in stride and read up on the forums before making your decisions. Likewise, I don't have a problem with the general term 'Super Rep', as it refers to a class of watches with an exceptionally high level of fidelity, and the 'finishing touches' (like AR) which some other reps lack. However, I would point out, that if something is the 'Ultimate', then by definition, that's as good as it gets, and nothing can surpass it. I agree, it doesn't mean 'perfection' or 'exactness', but it does mean 'the best'. What good is 'the best', when something better is eventually released? Sure, the UPO is a nice watch, but, it's still not 1:1 perfect, so it's still possible that the factories could release a further issue of the watch with things like the logo flaw corrected. For the record, I'd like to point out that what they correct, in terms of one flaw, they will likely compensate by creating a different flaw (possibly narrower hour indices) so they still have the option to release an Absolutely Dead on Balls Accurate Perfect Version at some point in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Oak Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 1:1 should mean the rep is the right size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc savage Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 How else could you get the same customer to buy three (or more) of the same watch? The dealers wouldn't be using those misleading terms if their ad copy had to be approved by Legal. Why not call it Solid Gold, 100% Waterproof, Made in Switzerland? The point they need to see is that intelligent buyers would feel more comfortable trading with someone who gives them the honest truth; it's natural to feel more at ease with a dealer who represents their product with integrity instead of relying on peoples optimism and building false expectations. It would cut down on returns, too, further increasing profits. I think this idea is sometimes lost in translation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Haven't we been through this???? Don't buy the hype...Like Andrew said...listen to the buyer and collector experience. Unbridled enthusiasm abounds here...people buy stuff sight unseen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmythree Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 I think you just coined a 'replica truism'. The world's worst salesman is not going to run his stock down with accurate descriptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkerouac Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Actually, the term that annoys me the most is "Spot On" -- as in, "i just received this [fill in the name of almost any newly available model] and was able to compare it to the gen version at the AD, and this rep is Spot On." I expect marketing language from our dealer/collectors, and know to discount it, just as you would from any other marketer. But often I also know to discount the first "reviews" that are posted for a new model, especially when the poster uses the phrase "spot on." Even the best reps have "flaws" or at least differences from the gen. Some of these discrepancies will matter to me, others won't. (Heck, some discrepancies I can't even see, even if I use a magnifying glass.) But the fact that someone spotted it, and may even have been able to capture it with a macro close-up, at least makes me a more informed consumer. Maybe it will be a deal breaker, perhaps it won't matter. But that is up to me. Facts and informed decision-making will shape my purchases, not the terms "Ultimate," "Super," "Best," "1:1," and definitely not "Spot On." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavidoc Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Never been to China have you? Go into any copy mall over there and you'll be bombarded with the following: "Copy watch? Copy bag?" "You interested? Very good quality!" "Very good buy! None better!" "Best! A+++ Super Quality!" "Just like original! Perfect!" Keep in mind that these are all being said as you inspect some of the worst POS's you've ever seen. That's the nature of the business in China in the copy industry. Everything from movies, games, electronics, software, to watches. Just the way it is. Only place you won't get this sort of BS is at the real places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fendushi Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Never been to China have you? Go into any copy mall over there and you'll be bombarded with the following: "Copy watch? Copy bag?" "You interested? Very good quality!" "Very good buy! None better!" "Best! A+++ Super Quality!" "Just like original! Perfect!" How true! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narikaa Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Exactly................ 'This A numba won modelle' 'New collecxion' 'Same originalle...shuah!' 'Satainless steeewl' 'Sapphirie' (followed by the scratch with a ballpen routine) 'Sawiss machine' as a sales pitch on this 50mm Patek Philippe POS !!!!!!! Apologise for bad pic.... Mobile phone/camera, Bad Light, Convulsing choking back tears of laughter. Response..... 'Let me photo & check my customer (& see if he's had a brain hemorrhage in the past couple of days)' You guys have it easy! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguar2187 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'll concede and say that a "Close Enough" PAM 092 (for example) won't draw me in as much as a "Ultimate" PAM 092 would. But when you want to claim the title of "Ultimate", I'd like to see that many of the flaws that plagued the preceding model would be corrected (that's why there's second chances). I'll admit that I started this posting because I recently purchased an 092 "Ultimate" and within a week of owning it all of a sudden the crown broke off its' stem, the CG became loose, the lug screws lost their threads, and the rotor stickers fell off! I could deal with all that becuase up until the 28th of this month, it does not affect the fuctionality of the watch. Isn't it funny when something (anything) seems to work perfectly UNTIL it gets into your hands? Your dead on man. And we are the pigeons! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdavis Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 This has been an on going concern of many on most all of the forums. However, I don't see it as a big issue at all because, we all should be aware of the marketing terminology used in nearly every advertisement we see or read. Product knowledge is your best defense in the replica or any other buying situation. Establishing a good relationship with your collector, comparing collector photos with gen photos, searching for reviews on the forums, asking questions of your collector, never expecting perfection, and making your buying decision. It takes a bit of work but, by following this process and ignoring the verbal hype, you can reduce your chances of being disappointed and increase your chances of being pleased with your watch purchases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
confused69u Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 As far as I am concerned, the dealers are free to market their products however they want because in the end, they are selling illegal products after all. It should be up to the consumer to do their own due diligence by checking out the forums and reviews on the internet before purchasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsmith11 Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 As far as I am concerned, the dealers are free to market their products however they want because in the end, they are selling illegal products after all. It should be up to the consumer to do their own due diligence by checking out the forums and reviews on the internet before purchasing. But what happens when you research all of these things and you still end up with crap from a "respected" dealer??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
confused69u Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 But what happens when you research all of these things and you still end up with crap from a "respected" dealer??? You are SOL and should probably stick to gens if the risk of getting a horrible watch outweighs the potential reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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