Questions/Opinions on Phong 7928...

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

OK, first and foremost I want to preface this by saying that I truly appreciate the efforts of KenMaster. He worked pretty hard to get this watch for me, and it was forwarded to me immediately upon him receiving it. He has furthermore stated that if I am unsatisfied with the watch, that he can arrange for an exchange to be made.

SO, with that said. Here is my MICRO-Review.

The watch was received extremely well packed by Ken. Upon opening it and making an initial inspection I found no physical damage. What I did find is what I feel is a rather substandard representation of a classic Tudor watch. I will list the "issues" that I have found in the order of importance to me.

First issue are the CG's... NOW I know all Rolex watches need work to the CG's. But this is a much different situation. The CG's are incredibly off centered. It almost appears like someone began to mod the lower CG, went a little too far and then quit. In my opinion the lower CG was cut back from the crown too much, and the upper CG appears to almost be touching the crown. I looked to see if the crown tube or crown was bent, and neither are. The CG's are truly uneven. I am not sure if the upper CG can be shaved to match the lower one, for I think it would leave the opening TOO BIG and scream FAKE.

Also, the CG's are not cut even (front to back). The front of the CG's (both" are cut back considerably farther than the back. I use a rather strange test to match CG's when I mod them. I can tell you that 9 pieces of standard copy paper will fit between the crown and CG on the lower side. I can comfortably fit 3 pieces between the crown and CG on the tops side, and can squeeze 4 in really tight. So, my unscientific measurement says the gap on the low side is more than twice as wide as the top.

The second issue that scream out to me is the bracelet. First it is a solid mid link bracelet. And for what he typically charges over $700 for I would expect a little better bracelet. NOW, I did not spend that for the watch, I paid $550. BUT I would still typically expect a MUCH better bracelet for the amount of money spent. If the case and everything else was fully modded and a much better example of the watch, i could get past the $10 bracelet... but that isnt the case here. The two end pieces do not even match. They are both engraved 455 B, but they are completely different shapes and fit differently. Also if you look closely, they are not 20mm. I think they are 19mm, as there is about a 1 mm gap between the lugs and end link. When I asked Ken about this, he was up front and said that Phong said he did not include "expensive" bracelets with his watches. I have honestly seen better bracelets on $100 watches.

The next issue is that the case back cannot be removed. Now, if there is any one thing that Ken could be faulty of it would be this. he had sent me pics of the movement, and therefore I know the case was opened. I took the watch to my watchmaker this evening. He has a Rolex made case back opener (as do I) and neither of us were able to get the case back to budge at all. Luckily, because we were using the correct tools, not stripping was done. But we were NOT able to get the slightest movement out of the caseback. So I cannot comment on the movement or engraving on the caseback interior.

Issue number four, and I could not for the life of me get a decent picture of this. Both the reference number and serial numbers are off center and engraved at an angle. Again, not something that can be fixed without filing and re-engraving.

The crown tube is a brass color and there is a gap between the tube and case. I have no idea what this is all about. The tube seems tight, but there is still a gap. And IVE NEVER seen a GEN or REP brass colored crown tube. But then again, who doesnt install a GEN anyway...

Ken warned me that he was not pleased with the dial. I am however thinking that the dial is about the best aspect of the watch. My only issues are that it has no lume at all, and he explained that the gen would not have had any lume. I have yet to find this written anywhere. I also think that the SWISS T <25 is wrong for the model.

The bezel and insert are pretty good, but again... not as genuine.

With all of this said, I have to generalize that the Phong 7928 is not worth the amount of money that is charged. The MBWs that I have are (in my opinion) much better examples of their model and the QC is much better. I have not yet removed the bezel to see what is under it, as I dont want to do any further dis-assembly until I decide (with your assistance) if I am going to keep the watch.

I really am conflicted. If the CG's can be fixed, I can have the reference and serials re-engraved. I can try to figure out a way to get the caseback off (if necessary) and can put one of my gen bracelets on it. At this point, I will be in the watch well over $1k.

Now for the pics... PLEASE let me know what you think. Is this a base for a modded watch, or something that needs to be given up on and returned.

Phong, if you are here (does he ever come here) send me a PM... I would like to chat with you.

And Ken, again... I appreciate your efforts and my review is to have NO impact on his reputation. He offered to send it back even before sending it to me. But I insisted on seeing it myself before making a determination. In my opinion, this is a very noble effort.

[KB]

Send it back...........those crown guards are not off center the crown is and this of course suggests bigger problems.

Ken

[freddy333]

Conflicted is the right word.

My initial impression was that, overall, the watch presents much like a gen, at least in the full-frontal picture. The ill-fitting end links & mediocre bracelet actually give it a bit more credibility as these are sometimes seen on older Tudors (which were often considered 'throw-away' Rolexes, being their 'budget' line), because the originals were often lost or damaged by the time the watch makes it down to the 2nd or 3rd owner.

On the other hand, upon closer inspection I see that the end links are not just ill-fitting, but crap & the rest of the bracelet does not look much better. The dial, to me, is the shining star here & makes up for alot of the other sins (but not all of them). For a watch of this vintage, I would expect the lume to be dim, at best, or completely dark. So that would not bother me. What does bother me is the immobile caseback. Whether it was just innocently over-tightened (which can potentially cause damage to the case and/or movement) or whether it was purposely installed that way to hide something inside would worry me.

[Guest avitt]

That's a damn shame...

I few thoughts come to mind:

• So much for the "legendary" status of these Vietnamese cases
  
• I wonder if Phong was trying to dump his factory seconds at "group buy" prices
  
• I wonder how "Jensen" will be when there's a situation to correct. He has a pretty shady reputation...
  

[KB]

Doesn't anyone else see what I see or am I looking at it wrong?

Look at the 4th pic, look at the 10 and the 20 on the bezel, now look at the curve of the CG's in regards to the 0 in 10 and the 2 in 20....looks spot on to me.

ken

[freddy333]

Doesn't anyone else see what I see or am I looking at it wrong?

Look at the 4th pic, look at the 10 and the 20 on the bezel, now look at the curve of the CG's in regards to the 0 in 10 and the 2 in 20....looks spot on to me.

ken

To me, it looks like the inside walls of each of the CGs was cut at a slightly different angle in addition to possibly being a different width, which was 1 of the original complaints. That may be why the crown looks off-center.

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

I just did the very best I could to measure the CG's. It is my opinion that the OUTSIDE of the CG's are centered. The inside cut of the CG's are not centered. Because the lower CG was cut more (as if we were doing a typical mod job) the lower CG is slightly thinner. It really does look to me like someone modded the lower one and not the upper one.

I have noticed two more things about this watch that fascinate me, the aftermarket end links that I have fit this watch better than they fit the MBW's that I have. BUT, the watch looks really nice on a NATO.

I am going to take it back to my watchmaker tomorrow and see if we can figure out a way to get it open. I have tried to use my opener and it just isnt happening. Ken states that he put the caseback on using one of the Ofrei balls. SO I really dont see how its this tight unless he had an extra bowl of wheatties the morning he did it!

On a side note, while doing some further searching for the term "Tudor 7928" guess what shows up on the second page of search results??? The original thread that got me interested in this watch from this forum! I also found discussion of this forum on a Rolex forum. It seems we arent as hidden as we might like!

[alligoat]

Opening a tight caseback would be easier with the LG Openall- it's like a $65 tool from ofrei or jules borel. MY WM 1680 is also difficult- I put it in a movement holder and then clamp the movement holder in a woodworking vice. Then with downward pressure on the Rolex wrench, I'm able to turn the caseback and remove it.

I agree the CG's are off center- your only option is to file the top side. But also, they are too fat on the outside- this is a common problem on the MBW/MBK/WM vintages also. I believe Pug polished his down on the outside- alot of work. I do think this is one of the big tells between a rep and a gen vintage. CG's on a gen are typically thinner.

[stilty]

On a side note, while doing some further searching for the term "Tudor 7928" guess what shows up on the second page of search results???

Sorry to hear the bad news in regards to your purchase.

As far as how easy it is to find us. I have mentioned this a few times as I do not like it. There was talk that we would be blocked from Google searches, but seeing all the Google ads on this site, I'm wondering if it will ever happen. Perhaps there is some form of revenue sharing being associated with Google. Just a thought.

[predfan2001]

I'd send it back for sure. It would be a different story if we were talking about a $200.00 rep. The rehaut looks very good though, slightly conical as it should be. The dial looks pretty good in the pics and I've seen several different layouts as far as the "SWISS T <25 " or "T SWISS T" goes on gens. so that wouldn't be huge deal to me.

The cgs are the main reason I would return it. If it was a $200 rep. (and if the case back would come off) the cgs could be evened up a little and still possibly look decent.

I'm having to go about my 7928 the hard way, a refinished dial and a MBW 1680. It should make for a nice watch even though the rehaut will be wrong and the hands may be wrong (most of the 7928s I've seen have different hands, larger hour and second markers on the hands).

Bottom line is this is a watch I think we will never see correctly rep'd so we have to take what we can get, but for $550 I wouldn't settle for the quality of that particular watch.

Edited February 26, 2008 by predfan2001

[Guest avitt]

There are some excellent gen 7928 CG reference photos currently up in an ad on the WUS Private Sellers forum...

[yellomen]

Now i see these pictures i finally understand why MBW sents quite some pieces back to the supplier... And if i where you i'd mail Phong about this and ask him for a new watch with correct CG's. As far as i can see most specs are always the same and are quite good actually. But those CG's suck big time!

The dial is correct for the 7928, this version was probably deliverred with 2 different movements... the ETA movement for the military issued watches and the rolex cal.390 for the privat sales.

There are 2 version with black dial as far as i know... 1 with gilt dial and 1 with a more matte dial... but... there are also version with blue dials specially issued for military purposes. For the French navy with MN stamped in the caseback.. and for the US army as well, but it's not clear if these where stamped as well or not.

The dials are redone dials... at least of all of the dials you can find with dealers like Phong. I think this is quite a nice dial by the way!

All together i guess most parts are very nice... but those CG's suck and i'd ask for another watch with good CG's.

Good luck

[Jetsons]

It's really a shame as other than the one CG, it looks to be a darn nice case. The crown is nicely centered on the case which is a welcome change. It is visually a great looking watch.

Perhaps someone started shaving the inside of the CG and got carried away. They do look centered on the case to me.

Hope it all works out well for you.

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

Well we got the case open today... Took a little work. We gave up on the case openers and went to industrial strength duct tape. Neither my watchmaker or I can figure out why the proper case opener would not work.

I am quite impressed with the movement and will provide pics this evening when I get home. It is in fact an eta movement. I did not write down the movement number, and it was one I am not familiar with.

I have been quoted what I feel is a reasonable price for removing the reference and serials, and hand engraving them as they should be. Instead of a 1970 serial, I think a 1967 might be more fitting. The additional info will also be engraved on the inside of the case back.

In doing ALOT of research of gen pics, I think the CG's can most likely be made to look correct.

We popped off the bezel and it appears to be the same mechanism as used by MBW on their watches. The insert is a snap in, not glued which I liked. BUT we found that the pearl is not removable. It is simply painted into a recess in the insert. Ive never seen a Tudor insert, so I dont know if this is correct.

As I said, pics will be available later today.

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

So here are the pics of the case back and movement. For the first time ever, I think that the engraving on the inside of the case back is actually stamped. That is correct, isnt it?

I cannot read the movement information other than to recognize the ETA stamp. At the shop I had use of a loupe, and mine has up and walked away from my desk???

Engraving on the rotor is as was seen in the Phong provided pics. I have one question about it though. I do not see any release for the stem. I see a bunch of screws over near where it should be, are one of them to release the stem?

PICS:

[Pugwash]

I believe Pug polished his down on the outside- alot of work. I do think this is one of the big tells between a rep and a gen vintage. CG's on a gen are typically thinner.

Correct. I filed the outside, the inside and the part where the crown meets the case, then sanded it with fine grit and polished it with a dremel and rouge. way too much work, but fun to do once.

[predfan2001]

I do not see any release for the stem. I see a bunch of screws over near where it should be, are one of them to release the stem?

I worked on a Delbana diving watch once that had a movement very similar to this one (it looked identical but I'm not 100%) and I had to release the stem with the screw that is located where the release pin on the ETA movements we are all familiar with.

This post has really got me thinking. My current project is a Tudor 7928 Submariner but I don't have a case that will work. I do have everything else I need though. I would love to get my hands on a case like yours but I think it is unlikely. I posted that I needed a MBW 1680 case request in the "wanted" section but I don't think alot of people read that section. Heck I'd even buy this case from your supplier if you have to return it, I ain't picky if the price is right . If anybody has any suggestions to help me out let me know.

I hope it all works out for you. Darn shame the 7928 wasn't the quality it should be for the price. A vintage Tudor is a mighty fine piece.

Edited February 27, 2008 by predfan2001

[freddy333]

I believe the stem release is the screw just above & to the right of the stem in your last picture. Turn it only as much as needed to release the stem, no further.

[kenmasters]

I haven't visited in a few days! The 7928 didn't meet my expectations and I told Phong about this already. There were no 7928s available for replacement at the time of delivery, so there is a wait if carlsbadrolex wants a replacement. Phong sounds like a nice guy, but tried to squeeze out of getting a decent bracelet. He claims the 9411s will be much better. We will find out shortly. I'm glad the case finally opened! I must have been too excited and squeeze my ofrei ball like there was no tomorrow! Those Ofrei balls are quite good! I will resolve any issues with Phong so everyone is happy, or otherwise I'm not going to continue with the purchases...

Oh just for reference.. phong does normally sell these watches for $850. The dial by itself $265. Hands $95.

[tmg]

Disappointing on those CG's CBR, they're fugly. The dial looks fantastic though!

I have a 5517 case and a Tudor 7031 complete watch from Phong and found the quality and finish excellent. I guess QC issues are everywhere.

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

I have spent this evening getting a little work done since I decided to keep it. I have finished the CG's and have to say that they look fairly decent. In order to match the bottom one, ALOT of work had to be done to the top. I didnt cut the outside, but may still.

I drilled the lugs for gen spring bars, as usual this was fairly easy and came out well.

I also fitted a genuine tube and crown. I had a set and thought what the hell...

Bad news is that with my unfamiliarity with the workings of the stem retainer I screwed something up. I loosened the screw that was mentioned and that WAS the correct one. However, upon reinstallation it doesnt appear to be screwing into anything. It just spins freely and does not hold the stem in place. My assumption it that there is something on the dial side of the movement that has gone out of place, and that my watchmaker can take it apart and repair it. I want him to service the watch anyway.

When I get it back on Friday I will shoot some pics and see what you think.

[stilty]

Look forward to seeing the results.

For the CG's. According to an expert ebay seller, shouldn't they be pointed?

Here are a couple pics.

[freddy333]

Bad news is that with my unfamiliarity with the workings of the stem retainer I screwed something up. I loosened the screw that was mentioned and that WAS the correct one. However, upon reinstallation it doesnt appear to be screwing into anything. It just spins freely and does not hold the stem in place. My assumption it that there is something on the dial side of the movement that has gone out of place, and that my watchmaker can take it apart and repair it. I want him to service the watch anyway.

Correct on both counts -- you went too far & the screw dislodged. But your watchmaker should know what to do (rebuild the keyless works).

Glad to hear you were able to improve the CGs & get the caseback removed. Looking forward to seeing the completed watch.

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

Well this project is going no where fast... I just got a call from my watch maker and he says the movement is a mess. He said besides the two metal shavings from the case that he found in the movement, the threads on the set lever are shot. I guess the way this works is that the screw that retains the stem screws into the set lever.

SO, he needs to source a new set lever, and service the movement. He did say that the dial appears to be a genuine redial. He also says that he has another Tudor rotor that would fit this movement. Its the one as shown in the pictures above. He wants $50 for it. Should I do that while I am in there?

[freddy333]

Sounds like you have no other options, unless you want to spend a few weeks searching ebay or TZ's sales forum. But your watchmaker may not want to have your watch sitting there while you search.