Drawbacks to shipping internationally with reduced customs dec. value

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

OK, I am going to put this out for discussion. I will preface this by saying that the situation being discussed has now happened to me twice, both as a seller and buyer.

About two months ago, I ordered a set of genuine 580 end pieces from a friend in Canada. He shipped them immediately, stating a reduced customs value with no insurance being paid for. The package arrived torn completely open and the contents missing. An investigation was conducted by the USPS Postal Inspectors Office because I thought it quite odd that they would even deliver an envelope that was half missing. Nothing was ever found, and nothing was ever done about it.

As a buyer, I did not hold the seller responsible... as it was obvious to me that he had done what he could to prevent this and it was truly my opinion that someone in the USPS felt they needed the items more than I.

As a result of me mentioning that I owned a genuine/serviced Rolex 1570 movement that I had not done anything with... I was contacted by a member here and after some negotiation, the movement was purchased. At his request, a lower declared value was stated ($50) and the customs form was written to state that it included "watch parts". No insurance was bought, as it would conflict with the customs dec. value and either send up flags, or not even be accepted by our shipping system.

The watch movement was shipped on march 13th at 2pm via USPS Priority mail International. Here is where it gets interesting... The package took 3 days to get to Los Angeles (60 miles North). It left the US on march 16th (via plane Im sure...) The USPS tracking system shows it did not arrive in the UK until March 26th. SO this flight apparantly took 10 days to cross the big blue ocean. It entered UK customs on the 26th and was released on the 26th.

The package was delivered in the UK on march 27th (today). The box had been sealed with my usual 2inch clear packing tape (on all sides) and the customs docs were sealed in a USPS clear plastic bag. The movement was in a clear plastic movement holder, and then sealed in a clear plastic bag and then surrounded by an entire box of foam peanuts.

When the package was delivered, all that was left was the clear plastic bag and the peanuts. The buyer states that the box had been resealed with "thinner" tape.

NOW, I am a reasonable and honest person and I am simply distraught over this. I have two packages going out today internationally and I will incur the cost to ship them both via Fedex. I am quite humbled by the fact that the buyer has agreed to claim responsibility for this... but I feel the need to offer at least a partial refund as the payment was quite large.

My suggestion to everyone is that we try to find another way to mask our dealings of replica items so that insurance can be purchased on these packages. AND when genuine items are being sent, bite the bullet and pay the damn customs fees. Im sure the buyer of this movement would have rather paid an addition fee than to be out the entire amount he paid. And I would be much more comfortable also. Its simply another situation like Paypal... we need to take safety measures, but at what point does it no longer become reasonable to conduct these transactions?

Im not here to whine... or cause chaos and confusion... Just trying to find out if others have found reasonable ways to avoid these situations.

[DemonSlayer]

Damn, I'm sorry to hear that. So far I've had no trouble with receiving any packages from abroad or sending any. However when I've sent, I've used an express shipping method which includes an insurance value of $64 and a tracking number. I usually declare the value of the reps as about $40. However, I'm not sure what could have raised any suspicions from the packages you sent. I think further research/investigation is called for here.

[Guest avitt]

The best policy (particularly with the items that you were buying and selling, which were both genuine) is to declare the actual purchase price, and purchase insurance at the same amount. This is for the protection of both the buyer, and the seller. If the buyer demands a variance (does not want to pay for the import duties, or insurance) then they must accept responsibility for any loss.

[narikaa]

Now theres a thought

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

I agree, and IF I were to ever sell anything internationally again (which is unlikely) that would be a requirement. If they cant accept the cost of the taxes, they wouldnt be buying from me.... You would be amazed at how much business I lose on my website because people wont pay the customs fees into Canada. I get asked at least 20 times per week to falsify the customs docs.

[Raijor]

I have been on both shipping and receiving sides where a watch just never showed up. No box - nothing. Both were international shipments one from Canada to England and one from Europe to Canada. I do not think that insurance can be purchased for a rep as insurance requires complete and full disclosure and in most jurisdictions replicas are not legal. However, I am not certain of this. As to whether loss is a problem through shipping - I think it is a bigger problem than the shipping companies of which I include the post offices, FedEx, Purolater and UPS want us to know about. Where there are people handling shipped goods there will be theft. The declaration on the package whether listing a high or low price is the trigger. It is likely the labeling of the contents as "watch parts" or "watch" that draws the attention of the thief. Easy to pocket stuff and easy to sell on eBay later. I think that it is just a Numbers game and eventually we just experience a loss after a certain number of shipments. I chalk it up to the price of trading with far away places. It burns but I see no solution.

[DemonSlayer]

I think we should investigate how heroin and cocaine and other narcotics are shipped throughout the world They always seem to find their way to their destination

[chris5264]

You would be amazed at how much business I lose on my website because people wont pay the customs fees into Canada. I get asked at least 20 times per week to falsify the customs docs.

I get this a lot also from buyers in Canada,,,,,the big problem is that if you put something up for sale and a total stranger offers you asking price of,,,say 800 but wants you to put 35 on the customs form,,,basically they are asking you to risk not using insurance or only insuring for 35,,,I think that is a lot to ask on the part of the seller

[rodwc]

Difficult and sticky subject.

The stuff that I send and receive, are marked, " Fashion Accessory ".

Touch wood,nothing has gone wrong so far.

[narikaa]

Customer should pay the duties in full

Full value declarations

Full insurance cover for sender

Pinch me someone and tell me this is really RWG !!!

.

[capice]

Sorry this happened to you man. I guess I'm still lucky here in the Lowlands of Europe.

All 10 watches from Narikaa, no problem

All from the US as well as China and Thailand, no problem

So knock on wood but I'm still a happy man

[Stephane]

I will repeat that from North America to Europe I have no problems with a good old brown enveloppe sent by registered mail signed for receipt.

It's not different from a letter and shouldn't have any declaration.

A watch + strap is not big enough to attract suspicion unless it's packed in a huge light box with "watch parts" written on it.

And of course, if a custom declaration is an obligation, then it should be declared as something that is of low value and not exiting for theives.

The registered mail signed for receipt was very safe for me so far.

As an example, I have a set of accessories, a box and a watch to send to the US.

I will send the Box only separately just in case it attracts the postal service employees.

The watch will be in a enveloppe.

At the end of the day, a watch wrapped in bubbles and fitted in a bubbled enveloppe is very safe as long as the enveloppe is sealed with large tape, isn't it?

Finaly, the responsability should be discussed prior to the sending...and why not in writting if it's between two members who does not know each other!

Cheers

Stephane

[Jimmythree]

quote =

I have been on both shipping and receiving sides where a watch just never showed up. No box - nothing. Both were international shipments one from Canada to England and one from Europe to Canada. I do not think that insurance can be purchased for a rep as insurance requires complete and full disclosure and in most jurisdictions replicas are not legal. However, I am not certain of this. As to whether loss is a problem through shipping - I think it is a bigger problem than the shipping companies of which I include the post offices, FedEx, Purolater and UPS want us to know about. Where there are people handling shipped goods there will be theft. The declaration on the package whether listing a high or low price is the trigger. It is likely the labeling of the contents as "watch parts" or "watch" that draws the attention of the thief. Easy to pocket stuff and easy to sell on eBay later. I think that it is just a Numbers game and eventually we just experience a loss after a certain number of shipments. I chalk it up to the price of trading with far away places. It burns but I see no solution.

/quote

Concerning fedex and ups...iirc both have disclaimers about paying off on insurance for 'jewelry and watches'. They will allow (and encourage) the sender to buy insurance but if the item goes missing, they quote the obscure rule and do not pay at all or have a low limit that the sended does not know about. I think it's about $500.

I could be wrong as it has been a few years since I used fedex or ups. I learned my lesson.

A friend who lost a few items with ups and fedex told me UPS stands for: Usually (the) Package (is) Stolen

...and the fedex motto should be "When a package absolutely, positively has to be stolen overnight."

He found one package on the roof above the front door. He called the carrier (ups or fedex) and they called back later and said the delivery guy heard a dog barking and did not want the dog to get the package. The dog must have signed for the package because the clerk said the delivery guy had a signature.

...or maybe the guy was spending the day on the roof and forgot about it.

I won't mention DHL because I get madder than H...

For items shipped in the USA...USPS Registered Mail may be a little better as they might try to recover the item and might pay a claim but I do not know because everything I sent made it. I noticed when I sent a package by Registered Mail last week that a big sign on the wall said the $9.50 registered mail charge (plus postage!) "Includes insurance up to $25,000"

When I asked the clerk about it she told me NO insurance was included but it could be purchased. I asked about the statement on the wall and she gave me the famous USPS '1000 mile stare'. They always require a value to be written on the invoice though...insurance or no insurance...but you have to pay extra to get the insurance they say goes with it!

On the receipt it says "Customer Must Declare Full Value" and has a box for the amount.

It also plainly says: "Domestic Insurance up to $25,000 included in the fee." Anyone with walking around sense would assume the $9.50 Registered Mail fee WAS the fee...but NO! according to the clerk and the declaration on back of the receipt.

It also says on the front: "International Indemnity is limited."

...yeah, to $zero probably.

On the back of the receipt is a few hundred words making it a total mystery.

Bottom line: You are on your own, it's a gamble. Do not count on the carrier's insurance to pay.

The people I know who ship high value goods use a third party insurer they can trust.

[stilty]

Bottom line: You are on your own, it's a gamble. Do not count on the carrier's insurance to pay.

The people I know who ship high value goods use a third party insurer they can trust.

Yes, if you must insure. Use third party. I used to buy sell gens about 8 years ago on eBay. Back before eBay turned into a zoo, too much competition, etc. And also when the USD was kicking the CDN to all hell. It was a Canadian sellers dream! Everything I sold was a 50% profit. Buy a watch in CDN, sell on eBay and get paid in USD!

Anyway, everytime I shipped a high value item, I would use a company called ParcelPro. Third party insurance for the jewelry industry.

[watcher]

It will remain a mystery as to where and when the movement was taken out of it's protective packing and only the one half of a clear plastic bag remaining but it will not stop me from buying Internationally and have indeed done so 7 times in the last 3 weeks without any issue.

I have no desire to pay duties and took the risk and sadly this gamble did not pay off this time around and could not have happened on a worse item and has now put my 1665 SD on a back burner for quite some time but I'll get there in the end.

The worst thing is that there will be some little [censored] somewhere either here in the UK or over the water in America with a movement that they may have no real clue what to do with and will probably sell it for 50quid! and buy some drugs!......very sad!

Anyone got a 1570 to sell me???!!!

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

Well, I dont know what exactly can/will be done... But I had a rather lengthy conversation with a rep. of the USPS Postal Inspectors Office today. I explained the situation in detail and he stated he would look in to "the missing ten days" and try to find out if the package was actually still here or in the UK.

He seems to be a rather nice guy, and regardless of what was on the customs docs, he understands that the contents of the package were stolen and for that he is sorry.

[gavidoc]

Before ever agreeing to ship internationally you must be aware of one thing. Indemnity compensation.

If you check with the USPS they will tell you what another country's indeminty agreement is with the USPS. So, for example you ship something to France, if the indemnity agreement with France is only equal to $150 US, if a package goes missing, then all that will be paid of the insured value is $150. Even if it was valued and insured at $500.

Once a package leaves the US, all USPS obligation for the insured price is over and all that will be paid is the indemnity agreement betwee the countires.

That is why for international packages, it is always best to send via FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc. as their carriers handle the package completely from Point A to Point B and there is no indemnity agreements needed as it is contained within the company that is providing the service.

Regarding declarations for packages, I know that taxes for the UK and the EU are excessively high for importing and that is why for all watches I've ever sold across the pond are marked the following way (while being sent via fedEx).

Horological Parts, repaired and (here is the important part) RETURNED TO OWNER

The key is that last part, Returned To Owner. What that registers as with customs is that the owner has already paid import taxes on the item and typically they will not be hit with anymore taxes. I know this works as I have sent the following watches overseas to the UK and EU using this exact process. Also, NEVER declare it as a watch. FedEx et al. will not give full value for a watch but will for parts. Go figure. So, if doable, take a photo of the movement. That is a part. The case is just part of the packaging.

1. Sinn EZM-1. Purchaser was in the UK. Paid price: $3100. Insured and declared value: $3100. Labeled as Horilogical Parts, repaired and returned to owner. Duties paid by the purchaser: $0.

2. Omega Speedmaster. Purchaser was in Spain. Paid price: $1800. Insured and declared value: $1800. Labeled as Horilogical Parts, repaired and returned to owner. Duties paid: $0.

3. Omega Seamaster 300. Purchaser was in Germany. Paid price: $2100. Insured and declared Value: $2100. Labeled the same. Duties paid: $0.

4. Sinn U1. Purchaser was in the UK. Paid price: $850. Labeled and insured the same. Duties paid: $0.

How will this work with replicas? No real clue as you run the risk with this hobby unfortunatly. For replcias, the best way to send something is via Registered Mail. It is slower but it has a higher chance to reach its destination due to the fact that registered packages are kept under lock and key (thus the reason for the special tape and the stamps that these pacakages receive on all edges).

When I ship a watch internationally, I always do two things. Take pictures of the package prior to shipping (for insurance reasons for me and the buyer) and make it clear to the buyer that I will send it anyway they want but I will not alter customs forms for them. This is to protect me and make it clear that the buyer assumes responsibility for any fees that might be incurred but also use my past experiences shipping internationally to curtail and concerns they might have.

[Dani]

I get all my high ends watches shipped at reduced value but they are always insured by a 3party

But at 5-15k each it can be nerv wracking

No risk no reward.

[llsteve80]

I agree with gavidoc 100%. Thanks man...you saved me a lot of typing

I love when buyers demand what to declare on customs docs AFTER paying, and still expect full insurance. I don't wan't customers like that, so I simply say OK, and then declare FULL value. I am not going to be caught dead falsifying documents for someone I've never met. I always send things for "repair and return" Nobody in customs anywhere has ever noticed that nothing was in need of repair. UPS, FEDEX, etc, use customs brokers in most countries. This can be good or bad, but at least if it is iffy about thievery from the underpaid government workers, it is your best bet. Faster to clear too. Supposedly the brokers are tougher on counterfeit items, so be careful there.

International shipping insured with USPS is a JOKE. My rule of thumb, if it's worth more than 200 USD, go UPS.

[georgegrasser]

Make them fear to ever open a box again. I urge everyone to ship rat trap filled boxes as a lesson for the bastards.

Bring me a severed hand!