Discussion topic: Have we seen the end of high quality reps?

[perry563]

I have 20 or so reps with most of them SWISS ETA (at least advertised as such). They all preform very well telling very accurate time. The Asian ETA copies I have had which were THREE in number......One was faulty out of the box and was replaced, another (its replacement) I am now wearing on my wrist a NOOBmariner while the third I bought for a coworker (another Sub.....Beginmariner). I can tell you its obvious immediatly when you try changing the time and date that these were (are) NOT swiss ETA. With all the swiss eta's the date changes like clockwork at 12 midnight and the "feel" when you pop out the crown and move the hands is smoother and exudes a higher build quality. In other words I can easily tell which watches contain what movements (asian copy vs ETA). I am sure others as or more experienced than I feel the same?

[scoobs1971]

Since we're in the rep world I'm inclined to think that all 'Swiss' reps actually could be frankens or 100% Chinese. In fact, I think that even the collectors are never 100% shure and they simply pass on what the factory tells them. I've experienced at least 2 times that one of our most trusted collectors unpurposely sold me a low beat 7750 for a high beat because the factory had informed him wrong. So I would never buy a Swiss rep for the 'Swiss' movement, but only because it usually comes with sapphire and AR, instead of mineral glass without AR on the cheaper Asian version.

Movements of reps I'm planning to keep are either fully serviced by The Zigmeister or are swapped by a sealed and preoiled ETA or DG2813 from Cousins. That's the only way to guarantee a quality movement.

[Slartibartfast]

It is a great shame that we might not be getting the ETA movements advertised. But I don't understand the objection in the fact that a cheap CN movement might fail. You almost expect it to happen, but you have saved a huge amount on the original purchase price. You can always replace the whole movement with a new one from Cousins for less than a tenner. What's the problem?

[Pix]

We need to get with the dealers we all know and put pressure upon them to try to ensure we get what we pay for. If the new price is going to be 100 more for a TRUE swiss ETA then so be it. Just dont lie to us and in the end sell JUNK. My thought always was that when I spend the extra bucks for swiss eta that I was getting a watch that is cosmetically very similar to a much more expensive Gen but at a low price BUT with true swiss eta reliability.

Most often the dealer is being cheated himself. Dealers can't open every single rep. The lie come from the manufacturers.

I have decided a while ago not to pay high bucks for an ETA which is either a second hand one or a fake. If I get an ETA under 200 USD (that happened), then why not. But why pay twice the price for a "Swiss" SFSO with a used ETA inside...

Actually my only problematic watch is my VCO with an ETA 2836.

I'd prefer to get some reliable Asian movements, and we know there are some. Provided that they are clearly identified (Miyota 8215)I don't care about ETA spare parts availability.

I had my VCO with ETA fixed. Paid something like 50 EUR all together, and these were very small things (+ high carriage).

And the faster we'll get Sellita movements or reliable Miyota or even clones of Seiko, the better it will be.

[andreww]

So what is one to do?

Buy the 100.00 cheaper asian model, and take chances that eventually it will fail, and be unrepairable, or pay the extra money for crappy knock off eta's, that eventually can be fixed?

Yes the asian movements cant be fixed, but they are readily available and can be swapped out for next to nothing. Seriously, most of the asian movements can be had for less than $25. When you order one, get a couple of spares and you're set!

[RWG Technical]

Currently I have an 'eta' service being performed by Z. I hope the problems he is having with some of his current repairs and servicing are not with my watch. I will soon find out.

Just got in from the ICU, I am happy to inform you that you are the proud father of a cheery 21.6K Genuine ETA 2846 movement. All genuine parts, completely dry, not a spot of oil to be seen, but that is good because it made it easy to clean up and service. Put it on the heart monitor following the surgery, and it looks like the operation was a success. I have it put aside with the transplanted face sitting in quiet isolation and being monitored.

Should be ready to be discharged late next week, gives you time to get the room finished off...

The movements I am referring to are not the Sellita SW200, I have some of those in house, and have serviced a number of them as well. Have found a few quality issues with them, but it may just be teething pains because they are new at the business (manufacturing their own movements). And no, ETA parts overall will not interchange with the Sellita except for the odd one here and there. So were not further ahead than with the Chinese copies, lack of spares. The SW200 is $100 so it's not cheap either.

RG

[perry563]

The point is.....one of the reasons forums like this exisit is to ensure this type of dealing...actually its the worst possibly dealing aside from not shipping a product to a paying customer at all.....is kept to a minimium. If The Zigmeister is seeing this underhanded business upscaling then we ALL should step forward and demand that the "trusty" sellers do something to correct it. If we all sit back and do nothing the end result is only going to be worse and worse quality. Who on this forum can ask Andrew, Josh and others to come on this forum and answwer these questions? Just saying its same old same old is not good enough. I am really surprised that the members here are not in a real uproar about this. If a product is advertsised a swiss ETA then we should get a swiss eta. If its not then tell us what the hell it is before we spend our money.

[deltatahoe]

I am really surprised that the members here are not in a real uproar about this. If a product is advertsised a swiss ETA then we should get a swiss eta. If its not then tell us what the hell it is before we spend our money.

i think it is important to note a subtle distinction here....ziggy isn't necessarily saying that these aren't ETA movements (note that i left off the swiss part, as we could debate till the cows come home about what makes a swiss ETA vs. a non-swiss ETA); he is saying that the quality of these movements (part by part) is lower than he has ever seen before....the movements have all the right ETA stamps/markings/etc, they just don't have the quality that he is used to seeing from ETA.

my (uninformed) guess is that we are getting to the bottom of the barrel of remaining ETA movements, and we're starting to get the dregs that have been previously cast aside when ETA movements weren't in such short supply.

the struggle here as this relates to our 'trusted' collectors is that there is no (reasonable) way that they can examine every movement stamped ETA to inspect and see if it is a "good" ETA or one the "bad" ETAs that ziggy is describing....

anyways, just my thoughts....

deltatahoe

[EuroTimez]

I can help you guy to give you reason why this is all happening.

Like I stated before since I'm a dealer I know somewhat what is going on in REPLAND.

You can get 3 types of ETA movement.

1. Copy ETA (which is in many many different verriables, fully engraved)

2. Second hand genuine ETA (genuine mixed part with asian copy parts, recycled from old stock movements, and all kind of things)

3. Genuine New ETA

I think I can give some inside information.

To give you a price estm. Just for the record all of my watches I sell is nr 3 if from china or thailand. MBK I only offer it as it comes with ETA according to MBK.

But in China I order the same Rolex submariner / Planet Ocean / any other rep model powered ETA 2836-2 movements in 3 versions (like above 1.copy, 2. second hand ETA etc)

NR 3 for instance I sell a rolex submariner with this movement at 280 usd.

NR 2 = 40-50 usd cheaper

NR 1 = 65-75 usd cheaper

The copy is very good most ppl can't tell with the naked eye, some come with DM engraved and some with serialnr's etc I've seen so many of them. It even feels like a genuine ETA, and parts are interchangeable (not 100% sure but one of my watchmaker said that most parts will fit but I think The Zigmeister is the expert on this one)

This is the facts, I have high reason to believe that many dealers sell 1, 2 to keep prices down. Just think for yourself the prices has increased dramatically for ETA movements but we haven't seen a dramatic increase in dealers prices?!

As everybody want to get it as cheap as possible but many are not willing to pay the higher prices for the real deal so therefore sometimes you get what you pay for -- a copy movement with a lable genuine swiss ETA 2836-2--.

I litterally pay 70 usd more than for a copy movement that looks, feels the same but doesn't hold the same quality!!

Also important thing to note is that if a dealer cannot garantee how the outside looks when it arrives (as we see many crooked markers etc) at your door then how can you garantee the inside?

I was actually gonna post this before The Zigmeister mentioned it, actually i did mention it somewhere in one of my post about the 3 different "so called ETA movements". I also mentioned this to some of my customers.

Quality comes first.

Edited April 17, 2008 by EuroTimez

[P4GTR]

I just want to be able to service my watches as time go's on. Plain and simple. This is why I choose ETA as often as I can.

If i'm spending $350-$500 on a watch, rep or not, what good is it if I cannot fix it when it breaks?

Game, set, match. If I cannot service the watch, it is completely useless to me and as such I will stop purchasing them- as Im sure many of you will as well.

Dealers take note.

[andreww]

P4GTR, why assume that it is game over just because a watch has an Asian movement? Cost of servicing an ETA is over $100 plus shipping. Cost of replacing an Asian movement is less than $25, and with minimal practice you can do it by yourself. To me that just makes much more sense, especially considering the decent pricing on Lite versions of "SuperReps" lately.

[perry563]

Difference is a TRUE Swiss ETA can last for decades. Its called quality. Having a great movement inside a beautiful rep means you have the LOOK and also a real TIMEPIECE. This is why I have bought reps in the past. We need to have the dealers tell us what we are buying. It is not good enough for any seller to say.."I dont know". They are selling the product at higher and higher prices so they should know.

[fishgodeep]

Well this certainly makes me think long and hard about my next rep purchase and I agree with Dluddy and Freddy ..this will make "Franken" projects all the more appealling for many.

Thanks for the heads up Rob.

[P4GTR]

P4GTR, why assume that it is game over just because a watch has an Asian movement? Cost of servicing an ETA is over $100 plus shipping. Cost of replacing an Asian movement is less than $25, and with minimal practice you can do it by yourself. To me that just makes much more sense, especially considering the decent pricing on Lite versions of "SuperReps" lately.

Realistically, right this second- I don't even know where to get the $25 replacement asian movement your talking about, who makes it, what model to request, or how to install it. Now figure, as into reps as I am, as much as I read these boards, the amount of knowledge to keep up with is still infinate. Look how much I don't know. Genuine ETA's take a lot of the guesswork out for someone like me, and at least they used to be, worth the additional premium to have the ability to take it to joe blow watchsmith and say "here, fix it". God bless The Zigmeister ten times over, but we can't rely solely on him forever. He could decide to drop everything, and become an astronaut tomorrow (or a home renovator?! ) and theres not a d@mn thing anyone of us can do about it.

I still have a lot to learn. You basically have to be a novice watchsmith to run in this circle, or at least run in the right direction.

[EuroTimez]

Most often the dealer is being cheated himself. Dealers can't open every single rep. The lie come from the manufacturers.

THis is partly true, as I your supplier sometimes cannot be trusted or doesn't care, so there you must double check. But like I said it is partly true as many really know better but pretend not to know and hide behind the manufacture. Just think about it, some know all the availablity of the 3 movements that I mentioned, some are so close to the factory that they Should know what's going on.

If I can know this and I'm just a small dealer, what does that mean?

Besides as many ppl don't know the difference or wouldn't openly complain if they did find out, therefor it is much more profitable to sell copy movement, if every now and then it does pop up on the publicily ---then they can always say....oh so sorry it was the manufacturer--- nobody else complaint so it must be an isolated case ---we will refund you or give you a new original ETA movement ---which is a minor loss in comparison to the profit gained from the difference between new ETA and copy.

If I pay 75 usd more I know my supplier wont give me a lesser quality coz if I found out and my supplier knows I always double check he's gonna get a big skolding. And I would send all the stuff back to him and then he gonna be stuck with it. Besides that my assosiate who is local from guangzhou and has face to face contact with my supplier, after the order is finished brings them all to my watchmaker to have them checked (screws, glass, bezel, crown, date etc etc) + silicon greased + waterproof tested till 50m before shipment. Every single piece will be opened!!! No white lies, see some of my reviews some testify that it was clearly greased.

When these copy-movements were pretty new on the market, my supplier gave me copy-movement instead of the real deal (which he said was the factories fault as I quickly discovered it after double check) so he refunded me all the money (sign of honesty) for it and was stuck with 30 pieces which he took as loss.

He now really makes sure that the factory gives him the real deal and gave me 3 options --1.copy, 2. second hand 3. new real ETA stuff.

I wasn't sure if he was telling the truth or was trying to pass on the copy in the hope that I wouldn't notice.

But I like to give him the benefit of the doubt as I know him personally for I think for almost 2 years. He always delivers what I ask him, but his QC is very bad to none-existant so I always have to get them double checked nonetheless.

Rg

chris

[KB]

This is the problem I see.

Chris just stated that he has 3 different pricing levels as according to the different movements, this is not the case with all dealers.

A super rep that does not contain a genuine ETA movement can hardly be called super, recently I observed another dealers scratch and dint sale and one watch he sold had an A 7750 movement and he described the problem as when you bump the watch the minute had spins.

Now he had it priced in GBP and it was quite a bit lower than his normal selling price but when converted to USD it was still damn close to $300.................For a defective Asian movement watch???

If the dealers are going to sell us cheaper watches they better be cheaper prices!

Ken

[EuroTimez]

Well ken,

Actually I would like to only offer the nr 3 (new ETA) movement and I think ppl will come to me to get exactly that but if they willfully knowing fully well that they want a nr2 (second grade) or nr 1 movement (copy ETA) then I wouldn't mind as it less risk for me as the buy-in price is cheaper and I wouldn't make more or less on my profit on the overal price but that is at their own risks!

But about your quote, the problem is that dealers are already offering you cheap prices for certain models and that is what you get cheap movements! (which is what they don't tell you).

I know some dealers selling price is very very near my buy-in price for an nr 3 movement (new ETA) so what does that mean?!

And I've been doing alot and alot of research and looking at competiters prices, as to see what I should offer them for. And if I would sell them at their price what profit would be made is left for me (after QC and shpiping etc, to see if it is worth even offering on the forum).

What I've noticed is that they always have a certain consistant precentage which is for example 50 usd per watch if they sell it at a certain quoted price (if I would compare with my buy in prices).

So lets say a dealer offers a watch for 100 usd, I can see from my record that it cost me 50 usd to buy in, so that means he makes at least 50 usd. Or it means that if I offer at the same price I would be making 50usd respectively.

Then I see totally different watch also offered at 100 usd, also about 50 usd profit on a 100 usd watch. And so on and so on.... Nothing wrong with that. all are always 50 usd or more depening on the quoted price, the higher the quoted price the higher the risks so higher the profit ---percentage wise is almost always the same (i.e 50 usd profit on 100 usd watch, 100 usd profit on 200 usd, aka 50% is their profit)

BUT THEN.... what i strangely noticed is that the ones with the so called ETA 3836-2 models, they offer it at 100 usd ----but then I see that my buy-in price is only 1. 50 usd for copy, 2. 75 usd for second hand ETA, 3. 90-95 usd for Real ETA movement??!? And I know my buy-in prices are not far from theirs, I don't believe that they would only make such a small profit as 10 usd on a 100 usd watch (10%), as all other models indicate 50 usd or more (50% profitmargin).

The above are just to get the point across, the fig and percentage is just as example to illustrate what I'm trying to say.

So what do you think that you will be getting?! Combined the low prices to natural logics and the extreem high prices ETA movements go for nowadays (The Zigmeister quotes 150 usd surplus ---200 usd new one, most likely the rep factories can get it cheaper than that but not unrealisticly cheaper) is it possible to get a new ETA mov at the quoted dealers price for some models !?!

This is the problem I see.

Chris just stated that he has 3 different pricing levels as according to the different movements, this is not the case with all dealers.

A super rep that does not contain a genuine ETA movement can hardly be called super, recently I observed another dealers scratch and dint sale and one watch he sold had an A 7750 movement and he described the problem as when you bump the watch the minute had spins.

Now he had it priced in GBP and it was quite a bit lower than his normal selling price but when converted to USD it was still damn close to $300.................For a defective Asian movement watch???

If the dealers are going to sell us cheaper watches they better be cheaper prices!

Ken

[Rolexman]

On a side line. The new Omega Hour Vision is offered for a whopping $528. It has a 'Geveve' decorated ETA 2836-2...... this has got to be a gen new ETA according to Chris's calculations. Right? I just don't see another way to justify this ridiculous price.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Rolexman

[KB]

Chris you make an example of a $100 USD watch and state the buy in price as $50, we know this to be incorrect and that these watches sell all day in the markets of Gaungzhou for 10 bucks.

The same is true with the higher end reps no way known are dealers making a profit of 50 bucks on a $800 HBB.

Ken

[Richard Tracy]

In my opinion after years of collecting close to 200 pieces,.... replicas and Asian movements are perfect for one another, much the same as replica or kit cars have engines that match what they are, and will always be no matter how much the

body is upgraded.

I seriously don't believe that most of us will pass along these replicas to our kids and many of us have figured out long ago that Asian movements can be just as hearty as Swiss, and will usually outlast the interest of the owner.

[rek001]

Also, if ETA will be tightening up the availability of movements in the next few years, what about future replacement parts for these movements? Will these parts also be more difficult to get?

I also have a number of rep watches with inexpensive asian movements and so far they have been perfortming admirably.

[freddy333]

In theory, the restrictions will cover ebauches only, not parts. If you are an independent watch brand that purchases new ETA movements for your watches, you will need to locate an alternative supplier after next year. However, if you have an existing parts account with ETA or 1 of its distributors, that should remain unaffected by the policy change. Since rep makers generally do not fit new movements into rep watches, the ETA supply curtailment may not directly affect new rep watches. This does not mean that the rep makers & sellers will not take advantage of the situation or use it as an excuse to boost prices anyway (think ExxonMobil).

[EuroTimez]

Chris you make an example of a $100 USD watch and state the buy in price as $50, we know this to be incorrect and that these watches sell all day in the markets of Gaungzhou for 10 bucks.

The same is true with the higher end reps no way known are dealers making a profit of 50 bucks on a $800 HBB.

Ken

Hi Ken,

The 100 usd was an example and to get the point across and for illustration purposes. I'm sorry if I didn't write it correctly as english isn't my first language but I think many ppl know what I'm trying to say.

Quote chris "The above are just to get the point across, the fig and percentage is just as example to illustrate what I'm trying to say." end Quote.

I was talking about a certain percentage that they make. There are some trade secrets, like I don't want to state my buy-in prices / profit margins, from who I buy them, etc for obvious reason. So therefore I cannot give exact examples, also without identify the dealers I'm ref too.

But can tell you this, if FOR INSTANCE they're making at least percentage of 50% CONSISTANTLY over at least 1000+ watches at the price they offer (as in my above sample --selling price 100 ---profit 50, selling price 200 ---profit 100 etc) --And I can see that when I compare THEIR SELLING PRICE with MY BUY-IN PRICE it is always 50% or more-- .

But when it comes to the ETA 2836-2 driven ones, in this example THEIR OFFERING PRICE compared to my buy-in PRICE calculated their profit would only be 10% or less if they would offer A NEW ETA 2836-, does this makes sense that over almost of of their watches offered they consistantly make 50% but when it comes to the ETA driven ones they only make 10%?!

If they would offer a CLONE Movement their profit margin would go back to 50-60% or if they would offer a lesser quality second-hand (recycled) ETA 2836-2. So it would most likely and I'm pretty certain that this is what you're getting. As most dealers don't do charity, and they need to make at least (in this example) more than 10% if they're gonna garantee your shipment etc etc.

So fig out what you're most likely gonna get. If ppl don't want to believe my word --see below--

Lets ask the members who now knows due to repair issues (by for instance The Zigmeister or other proffessional as some watchmakers cannot even tell the differnence) or something that they discovered FOR A FACT that they have an ETA COPY movement or a second grade and LET THEM NAME THE DEALER THEY BOUGHT IT FROM, Watch model and price paid! You can then verify my word.

I had all my watches checked for the New ETA movement! In China I have an assoisate who is local from guangzhou who I trust 100% and I vouch for her, she brings every piece to get a high QC and ETA movements are always checked!

side note, I now remember I should have also checked out the very expensive MBK watches (I got recently while I was in BKK) as those were the only ones (3-4 pieces that got sold/shipped out) I didn't check on ETA quality---had them silicon greased by my watchmaker etc but just gave a quick glance--- (mainly was I had very little time as I was in BKK while buying them in etc) and the PP NAUTISLUS is gonna be impossible to check so that one I have to go by the MBK's Word!

I was told however by MBK that these were genuine ETA's. But better to double check once again so I will do so now even for MBK watches!!

MY personal opinion (when I buy things or If I were a customer) that you just don't buy a watch you also buy their reputation. So your name is everything. Quality comes first.

@ ROLEXMAN

Yes some of the newer models they can only be had with either a COPY ETA or a NEW ETA.... but no second grade.

What I'm stating is mostly for older models for instance rolex ETA driven so called 2836-2 offered at a 150-220 usd price range --- that didn't got a significant price raise as the original ETA movements prices went up significantly---, for the newer models the dealers automatically raise it quite high so there it would be "theoretically" possible that you receive a new ETA movement. But then again ---if you cannot garantee how the outside will look when it arrives to the customer than how can you garantee what is on the inside?! --one of the reasons I never dropship---

Rg Rolexman, (or should I say.... Groetjes

Edited April 18, 2008 by EuroTimez

[Rolexman]

@ ROLEXMAN

Yes some of the newer models they can only be had with either a COPY ETA or a NEW ETA.... but no second grade.

What I'm stating is mostly for older models for instance rolex ETA driven so called 2836-2 offered at a 150-220 usd price range --- that didn't got a significant price raise as the original ETA movements prices went up significantly---, for the newer models the dealers automatically raise it quite high so there it would be "theoretically" possible that you receive a new ETA movement. But then again ---if you cannot garantee how the outside will look when it arrives to the customer than how can you garantee what is on the inside?! --one of the reasons I never dropship---

Rg Rolexman, (or should I say.... Groetjes

Thanks for clarifying my friend. I really appreciate all your input. If it is indeed true the new ETA powered watches are going to sell around that price I will settle for an ETA clone/ franken any day.... $500 is just too much. I rather pay $300 knowing it's a clone/ franken.

So the only problem is the way these watches are advertised?

E.g.

$500 watch = genuine ETA .

$300 watch = Second grade ETA or ETA clone.

Our dealers should inform us what quality movement is inside the watch..... sounds good in theory but is this possible?

Edited April 18, 2008 by Rolexman

[Watchmeister]

It is very frustrating to see that just as the quality level of aesthetics on new reps over the last 18 months has increased dramatically so has the difficulty in obtaining quality ETA movements. Beyond the more sophisticated answer given by Euro there is also no question that new ETA's are much more expensive to everyone and that ETA is being much more careful as to who they ship to. And as a result the manufacturers are getting far more creative in selling "ETA" watches to ensure profitability and simply quantity. As Ziggy has mentioned new ETA's are readily available in lots of a hundred but the prices have gone through the roof - up 50-100% over the last year or two. ETA has made a very intelligent decision - sell fewer movements at higher prices. We also can't lose sight of the rise in the Euro. And now as the manufacturers are increasingly making watches based on non-ETA movements we are increasingly reliant on Asian movements irrespective of the difficulty of obtaining ETA movements.

I too have moved more toward Frankens and using my existing inventory of ETA movements to selectively upgrade reps that I really like. And wait til you see the next batch of projects.