All About ETA

[roflwaffle]

I sometimed think I would like to take on the project of taking it apart to polish the bridges and plates a little to see what it would look like. That movement would be the nuts with a higher finish spec.

let me know how that goes, as that would be awesome. for me, that movement is a little beyond my skill to take apart, scares the heck outa me.

[RobbieG]

??? Those were your thoughts, not mine. I found the insinuations upsetting and said so. That's all.

10-4 and no problem, but if you don't mind me asking, what is upsetting about me reminding everyone that many dealers lie about stuff contstantly? Just curious. I thought it was kind of a known at this point. Buyers here really do have to watch theor butts on these issues as it can get pretty treacherous to know what you are getting. We have been discussing that topic for years around here way before this thread and what seems to be new info from The Zigmeister with more questionable info. Anyway, the fine print of that statement was really that I personally take it with a grain of salt and expect it form many dealers - but most definitely NOT my own. Anyway I just reclarified what I meant maybe in a little less harsh way. I was just being playful really. But hey, all in good fun. I mean don't shoot the messenger. Those ideas are not new ones and it has long been known around here that many dealers stretch the truth about a lot of pretty critical stuff and they have done so on a regular basis about a lot of things since I have been here. On a positive note, they also tell the truth a lot as well and by and large deliver stunning products with remarkable consistency for less than the cost of most no name watches sold in shopping malls. That is why I for one am willing to cut a lot of ETA slack as I think it is clear that it is one big grey area that I would rather not get bogged down with. I know I can get them here in the states so I'm less worried about getting them preinstalled. It is just my opinion but at this point it is too risky given The Zigmeister's latest comments. Now there is something new that he isn't recognizing again. The point being that maybe some dealers don't even know the difference anymore because the factories are keeping it from them to make more profit maybe? Who knows???

In the end, if ETA's in reps cease to be the norm if that is the way it goes and the copies become the new high grade rep movements available I guess there will be nothing left to lie about. It is also possibel that a whole new profit center will open up for certain dealers who will provide and ETA upgrade service or something. They could provide them even if the factories don't want to anymore. That is they couldl drop a genuine ETA in at the customer's request before shipping for an upcharge and if watchsmith services are needed to do things like broaching hands, etc. they will provide that as well. Angus is not my dealer per se although I have bought from him. He does offer that service now with genuine ETA 7750's if he can get them.

[RobbieG]

let me know how that goes, as that would be awesome. for me, that movement is a little beyond my skill to take apart, scares the heck outa me.

For any who do not know about the movement he speaks of, it is the one incorrectly marketed as a Lemania or Venus handwind clone. It is a copy of a Venus handwind movement and actually very similar to the genuine movement that is found in many high end handwind watches such as the Vacheron Malte Chronograph. Of course the finish and overall quality can't come close to comparing but for the cash it is a quite pretty and reliable movement. Here is a pic of the movement in question and while we are at it, a few pics of the rep of that watch it is in as well...

[JohnG]

10-4 and no problem, but if you don't mind me asking, what is upsetting about me reminding everyone that many dealers lie about stuff contstantly?

With all due respect that is a considerably toned-down version of what you say in the comments I quoted. You have said that all ETA's in reps are counterfeit and that all the dealers know it.

I have been quite careful choosing who I deal with based on the advice and cautionary tales I have read in these forums. I paid top dollar for reps that, if you are to believed, are NOT what they were advertised to be. In addition all the dealers, you have stated, are lying to us about the movements in the watches they sell.

What is upsetting indeed.

[RobbieG]

With all due respect that is a considerably toned-down version of what you say in the comments I quoted. You have said that all ETA's in reps are counterfeit and that all the dealers know it.

I have been quite careful choosing who I deal with based on the advice and cautionary tales I have read in these forums. I paid top dollar for reps that, if you are to believed, are NOT what they were advertised to be. In addition all the dealers, you have stated, are lying to us about the movements in the watches they sell.

What is upsetting indeed.

Yeah, I do believe that real ETA's are the execption now and that the majority are fakes and I think a good deal of industry participant do know about it. You have to be careful of the timeline here though. These are relatively new ideas for me and it wasn't very long ago that I would never have said that. No need to take exception though. I'm sure you are a big boy and if you are 100% sure of what you are buying and have a lot of faith in the sales community here good for you. I don't anymore except that I know my guy will look out for me and give me real ETA's as long as they are around. Like I said, he is a major player and he is the one that clued me into it along with The Zigmeister seeing it on his end. My dealer also does know that some factories are trying to pass them off and he works around it because he knows the differences and what the real stuff is. But it also could be that some dealers may not even know the differences yet themselves either. Hard to say. In fact I just learned what I just said through a private conversation from GZ with him today in fact. Don't worry, it is all going to come out in the wash real soon and thanks to this and The Zigmeister's threads everyone will be able to be more aware of it and know what to look for when he gets done disecting more movements.

Anyway, back to me and my big mouth...Although my opinions are based on solid and relatively new evidence (such as our principal rep service guy seeing more and more supposed genuine ETA's looking suspicious) they are still just my opinions which should be igonored by anyone with a strong opinion of their own on the subject. In short there is no need to pay any attention to what I have to say at all. All I was trying to do is help folks see the treachery afoot but in any case It shouldn't really "upset" anyone that I decided to present an opinion in raw form, rough edges and all.

Speaking of edges, here is another rough topic: IMO, people are probably going to have to redefine what they consider to be "top dollar" as well I am sorry to say. I'm thinking that a true ETA 1:1 super rep for $300 or so may just be a bit too much to ask going forward with all the new pressures and genuine watch prices skyrocketing as well. Don't forget they also have to buy the watches to make 1:1's too. And I for one would pay much more if asked. You can't buy any no name watch with that kind of quality even with a lesser movement from anywhere else in the world at that price, so at some point we all have to ask, what makes us so special that we should still get those prices given all that is happening to the industry?

Am I the only one here that thinks these watches are just the best deal in the universe considering what you get for the money? I mean it happens more and motre each year that I look at one of things and think at least for a minute that there is a good chance i got ROBBED buying the gen. Seriously. I think that SFSO rep is worth $300 without ANY movement in it and I own the gen. Seriously, I would buy that watch and the hands for $300 and put my own movement in it and any way you slice it that would still be the best watch for the money available anywhere in the world IMO...

.04 (My girl says I'm long winded...)

[roflwaffle]

I find it interesting... I'm reasonably positive that the rep factories aren't *making* the movements, low grade or high grade. They are buying CN movements that are already in production and having them engraved/swapping bridges/etc. I'm not disputing that there are many many fake etas around.. just trying to discuss where the heck they are coming from.

So, as I said before, the main makers of movements over yonder are DG/Seagull/PTS-Hangzhou and maybe some others. I think these companies are.. well.. at least somewhat legit.. and I find it highly implausible that some basement operation could be putting out movements of higher quality than the companies i just mentioned, which still points to them making them. (we know some are DG and some are seagull, etc already, but I'm goign to say that the 'fakes' have to be c oming from them as well)

Patents ran out on many of the ETA movements, so I think legally they are in the clear (at least on some), but you have to wonder..

ok, the rep 'factories' can do the fake eta stamps at same time they engrave rotor, etc, still seems like a lot of effort, as it still would require the movement to be taken apart to get to it... so it would required skilled labor.

2 points:

1) we should be able to keep abreast of what 'good copies' are available by merely checking with the manufacturers of these movements, no? They make movements well beyond to put into reps, and are very public about new movements/updates to movements

2) It is scary how impossible to tell they could make them. Seagull has put out a double tourby, there's no doubt they could put out precision enough 'fakes' (legally) that would be neigh indistinguisable from swiss quality. (i think seagull is at least as advanced as stellita)

anyway, i think point one would be interesting to research... these high grade movements have to be coming from *somewhere*.

Edited June 12, 2008 by roflwaffle

[RobbieG]

I find it interesting... I'm reasonably positive that the rep factories aren't *making* the movements, low grade or high grade. They are buying CN movements that are already in production and having them engraved/swapping bridges/etc. I'm not disputing that there are many many fake etas around.. just trying to discuss where the heck they are coming from.

So, as I said before, the main makers of movements over yonder are DG/Seagull/PTS-Hangzhou and maybe some others. I think these companies are.. well.. at least somewhat legit.. and I find it highly implausible that some basement operation could be putting out movements of higher quality than the companies i just mentioned, which still points to them making them. (we know some are DG and some are seagull, etc already, but I'm goign to say that the 'fakes' have to be c oming from them as well)

Patents ran out on many of the ETA movements, so I think legally they are in the clear (at least on some), but you have to wonder..

ok, the rep 'factories' can do the fake eta stamps at same time they engrave rotor, etc, still seems like a lot of effort, as it still would require the movement to be taken apart to get to it... so it would required skilled labor.

2 points:

1) we should be able to keep abreast of what 'good copies' are available by merely checking with the manufacturers of these movements, no? They make movements well beyond to put into reps, and are very public about new movements/updates to movements

2) It is scary how impossible to tell they could make them. Seagull has put out a double tourby, there's no doubt they could put out precision enough 'fakes' (legally) that would be neigh indistinguisable from swiss quality. (i think seagull is at least as advanced as stellita)

anyway, i think point one would be interesting to research... these high grade movements have to be coming from *somewhere*.

Agreed. I didn't mean to say the factories were making them. Sorry. My guy was kind of saying that some factories just pump the watches out with the fake movements but say it is none of the dealer's business. Sell what we got or bug off or something to that effect. I think you are probably right. The only real questions are where are the factories getting them and are they modifying them with stamps and/or other markings or is that being done at the movement factory? But as you say that seems unlikely as the movement factories figure to be at least reasonably legit. If they are they must be considering just saying there are no ETA's anymore due to the so called industry changes even though untrue and in turn using that whole thing as an excuse to just make the shift to no longer using any brand name movements in rep watches at all. I'm sure that would make everything much easier for them by far. All the ETA stuff must kind of be a pain in a a$% for them. Any manufacturer would rather just have on euniversal product that works in most everything. To that end I think they have been doing that with the A7750 which is readily used in non chrono watches just as much as chronos these days. If not for case thickness I bet they would be using it in more watches if it would fit...

Edited June 12, 2008 by RobbieG

[roflwaffle]

Agreed. I didn't mean to say the factories were making them. Sorry. My guy was kind of saying that some factories just pump the watches out with the fake movements but say it is none of the dealer's business. Sell what we got or bug off or something to that effect. I think you are probably right. The only real questions are where are the factories getting them and are they modifying them with stamps and/or other markings or is that being done at the movement factory? But as you say that seems unlikely as the movement factories figure to be at least reasonably legit. If they are they must be considering just saying there are no ETA's anymore due to the so called industry changes even though untrue and in turn using that whole thing as an excuse to just make the shift to no longer using any brand name movements in rep watches at all. I'm sure that would make everything much easier for them by far. All the ETA stuff must kind of be a pain in a a$% for them. Any manufacturer would rather just have on euniversal product that works in most everything. To that end I think they have been doing that with the A7750 which is readily used in non chrono watches just as much as chronos these days. If not for case thickness I bet they would be using it in more watches if it would fit...

Righto. I think I'm going to check out the big 3/4 movement factories websites in CN, and see if theres any info about 'new and better lookin' ETA ripoffs. hope google translator can make some sense of em..

BTW, anyone know when the ETA copyrights expired on their movements? Would be *very* interesting if all the dates lined up with the 'shortage' and eta's move to stop making ebauches...

[RobbieG]

Righto. I think I'm going to check out the big 3/4 movement factories websites in CN, and see if theres any info about 'new and better lookin' ETA ripoffs. hope google translator can make some sense of em..

BTW, anyone know when the ETA copyrights expired on their movements? Would be *very* interesting if all the dates lined up with the 'shortage' and eta's move to stop making ebauches...

All I know is that the 7750 has been expired for a long time now, which incidentally is why none of us can figure out why the A7750 isn't an exact copy of teh ETA. Why do what they did instead? I mean it seems like they would sell so much more in legit channels as well and if ETA parts were interchangeable they could almost have even an ebauche biz then...

[alligoat]

2836-2 and 2824-2 movements came out in the early/mid 80's- preceded by the plain 2836 and 2836-1 first- late 70's and on.

So patents should have expired a long time ago, I believe.

[roflwaffle]

All I know is that the 7750 has been expired for a long time now, which incidentally is why none of us can figure out why the A7750 isn't an exact copy of teh ETA. Why do what they did instead? I mean it seems like they would sell so much more in legit channels as well and if ETA parts were interchangeable they could almost have even an ebauche biz then...

hrm.. yea, i am surprised they havnt stepped up and made ebauches that are interchangable with ETA. since its not a full movement, it could still go into 'swiss' watches... and.. right about now, companies would be eating that sh*te up

[EuroTimez]

Please click this link to see the difference of ETA and COPY-ETA hope this is a help.... CLICK HERE

[FxrAndy]

Thanks Chris, good work mate.

[caracarnj]

This is outstanding. Will read it again to digest better.

[lbazso]

Thank you RobbieG!

It was a great article. Never thought that I will find such great explanation of ETA. I have just joined a couple days ago on this forum but already learning a lot.

Thank you one more time and I really mean it!

Laszlo

[eunomians]

Everything has changed... The following info is perhaps related to the initial thread post..

Read the extensive article/rant in the August 2010 issue of Watchtime magazine with Swatch Group Chairman Nicolas Hayek. No more ETA movements/ebauches/springs for anyone outside of the exclusive Swiss group of cronies.

"I'm not going to deliver anything--no movements, no hairsprings, nothing." -Hayek

"Thank God he's doing it. He should do it immediately. It will only weaken the weak. All the weak [brands] should disappear" -Hublot CEO Jean-Claude Biver

I'm all for in-house movements, but I'm personally against the idea of attrition when it comes to strangulating the small watch companies until they die. It reminds me of when Quartz was introduced and ETA bought 95% of the old original watch companies with scare tactics in the 1970s ---> "Ohh, you will go bankrupt trying to make mechanical movements now that quartz movements are around. Sell your company/tooling to us [for cheap] or die a quick death".

[Jkay]

That's an interesting turn of events. So suddenly, the untrue vanishing of ETA movements has become true ...

[BROM]

Is not so bad I think new companies will emerge.

I know like the Oris Date used to be a base 2824 and now is a base Sellita SW200.

From the looks they are making most of the dat date movements already.

[mt666tm]

Great read.... thanks!

For what it's worth the ETA movements coming out of China are absolutly fake... I have placed a few orders for multiple Cartier's for friends and so on (spread out over multiple orders to get through customs) and i ordered one with the gen-swiss movement and the rest with the Chinese movements. ALL the watches arrived with the movements bearing the ETA stamp. I find it hard to believe that the dealer just decided to upgrade every watch to a gen swiss movement, or that it was a mistake in my favor.

To top it off, the one that was 'gen-swiss' failed after less than a day and was returned for a replacement. The others are still going strong as far as I know.

I don't think this ETA freeze will be a problem. Sellita will be a great alternative, and it will force capable brands to manufacture in-house movements.

I personally will never buy a gen that uses a generic movement anyways, for those we have these amazing reps

[louky]

Interesting topic and all the aproaches mentioned here are correct!

[gmtlover]

Wow, What a great topic !! It took me more than hour to finish this first page.

To RobbieG : Does ETA really have factory assembling movements and making parts in China?

I do not know how hard that the Rep maker process to get ETA movement. But I am sure that if they really want to, they could.

2 years ago, I used to talk with one person about replica items. He told me that everything that made in China, we can get it less than half of the price direct from factory (It is called "Direct-buy" haha) without serial number. He said that one of his friend purchased Versus golden chair from a factory, exactly the same item in AD but it came without serial number for 1/3 AD price. He said these factories make all the orders for their customers, well, they have mold. They can make extra units for those who want. Even the Germany designed power generator (not so sure how to explain in Eng) worth (many) millions of $ can be purchased about 1/2 to 2/3 of the AD price. Wow..... It's what he told me.

He told me all the big business in China is in a form of mafia business. During his trip in China, he said that he had equipped military vehicles ran both in front and behind his RR. Please don't ask me if he lied or not, but he is in a well-known family and very rich in my country, of course not USA or EU.

If ETA really have factory in China, it would be very easy to make extra 10,000 units of 2824, etc.. or even 100,000 of them. Coz they have all spec, detail, and machine, Why not make some extra profits into pocket??? This may not be known by the top executives of the factories, but surely known by the lower level of management.

An easy example can be cloth factories, Let say Levi as example. Levi USA use 2 unit of textile to make 1 jeans. 20,000 unit of textile are given to one factory to make 10,000 jeans but the factory is so good, it use only 1.5 to make one. So they send 10,000 jeans to Levi, and make another 2,000-3,000 jeans to sell themselves. The extra units come in the same pattern, package but no serial number. Well, who know....

Another big example, another guy I know in Pattaya, Thailand. He said that he know one person who can purchase GM cars that assembled in Thailand for less than 1/3 of the market price. The car is totally fresh from the line, no defect, no problem, totally new. He said that car manufacturers will destroy 1 car every 300 or whatever as part of random quality control. This person is in high position in GM, Thailand. He could take these cars out and purchased as parts. Well, it's likely to be the same story of "I got Mold". Anyway, He can buy only what he personally purchase.

PS. It's just what someone told me, please do not ask me if it's true or not but the story in Pattaya is true because one dealer @ Alfa AD used to offer me brand new Alfa 156 @ 3.5/10 of market price.

I am sorry but I have a degree in economics and what you are telling here is very hard to believe for me.

Let me explain to you why:

But first I am not telling you are a liear.

You say that "machines can just make extra movements without the high executives knowing"

Let me tell you why I am 99% certain this isn't possible.

A machine has a certain lifespan.

Say it can produce 100.000 movements before it needs to be replaced.

And lat's say the high executives order the fabric to produce 25.000 a year.

That would mean that the machine would have a lifespan of 4 years.

This is all documented in a financial rapport.

Your contact told you the lower management would just produce like 100.000 extra.

Is this case that would mean that the machine would have to be replaced in 1 year instead of 4.

When the financial rapport is finished at the end of the year something like this will definitely stand out..

Because machines are 9/10 times the most valuable assets of a production fabric costs are very specific calculated.

Because of that reason I can't believe the machines are just making extra movements without the high executives knowing.

They just have to know or the story your connection told you is likely not all true.

[gmtlover]

I am sorry but I have a degree in economics and what you are telling here is very hard to believe for me.

Let me explain to you why:

But first I am not telling you are a liear.

You say that "machines can just make extra movements without the high executives knowing"

Let me tell you why I am 99% certain this isn't possible.

A machine has a certain lifespan.

Say it can produce 100.000 movements before it needs to be replaced.

And lat's say the high executives order the fabric to produce 25.000 a year.

That would mean that the machine would have a lifespan of 4 years.

This is all documented in a financial rapport.

Your contact told you the lower management would just produce like 100.000 extra.

Is this case that would mean that the machine would have to be replaced in 1 year instead of 4.

When the financial rapport is finished at the end of the year something like this will definitely stand out..

Because machines are 9/10 times the most valuable assets of a production fabric costs are very specific calculated.

Because of that reason I can't believe the machines are just making extra movements without the high executives knowing.

They just have to know or the story your connection told you is likely not all true.

Edit: didn't want to brag about a degree, just where I learned the knowledge of the devaluation of machines

[fotoman]

Edit: didn't want to brag about a degree, just where I learned the knowledge of the devaluation of machines

Tip: don't try to apply business or social norms from the west.

You will just end up banging your head against the wall

[louky]

I think the fake trade video posted by phoband unswers allot of questions!

The think for me is that if you want to build a rep or make a homage for your self is not that bad ,

trying to fool people and sell it as real is very bad!

Same with movements ,you can be honest i mean there are also good well made chinese movements.

Allot of western watchmakers by them these day for their watches,they just readjust and calibrate them.

China had a watch industry long time ago,they might not have been sleek and precise like the Swiss but they had an industry from were they can grab a few technicians.In some article i read that they were some so called swiss-enese movements.They were chinese eta clones but had eta parts in them.

Also in some reps there are gen eta movements but they are from new old stock taken from somewere, some were from Swatch automatic etc.

There is nothing wrong with them but they just need to be serviced and oiled because they might be in a box for 10-15 years!

I think there is pam 29 version with such a movement out lately.Someone posted a review here.

[fotoman]

I think the fake trade video posted by phoband unswers allot of questions!

The think for me is that if you want to build a rep or make a homage for your self is not that bad ,

trying to fool people and sell it as real is very bad!

Same with movements ,you can be honest i mean there are also good well made chinese movements.

Allot of western watchmakers by them these day for their watches,they just readjust and calibrate them.

China had a watch industry long time ago,they might not have been sleek and precise like the Swiss but they had an industry from were they can grab a few technicians.In some article i read that they were some so called swiss-enese movements.They were chinese eta clones but had eta parts in them.

Also in some reps there are gen eta movements but they are from new old stock taken from somewere, some were from Swatch automatic etc.

There is nothing wrong with them but they just need to be serviced and oiled because they might be in a box for 10-15 years!

I think there is pam 29 version with such a movement out lately.Someone posted a review here.

This has generally been The Zigmeister's view. That with most of our reps if properly oiled and cleaned there is no reason why they wouldn't work for many years. It's the ones with hair and the tears of small children that get whacky. And a co. Like millionsmart makes good movements and thousands and thousands of them. And their tourbillon is pretty cool. No way it's crap.