Has anyone contacted dealers re: "Fake" ETA movements?

[im2]

amazing thread!

I think the issue reflects the... ''progress'' of our hobby. After the tremndous replicates of HBB and(?) GMT II ceramic, we all seem to seek better quality in our buys, quality inside and outside our reps.

It would be interesting if someone or some of us, made a sticky thread like this... ''ORIGINAL SWISS ETA MOVEMENT'' with pictures so as anyone who buys a Swiss SSD for example can open it and compare what he had really payed for. I think this would make dealers more responsible ... and buyers more aware....What do u think?

Eurotimez assertion looks promising and i am seriously thinking of buying a rlx rep from him... but i have a question for him...Has he ever experienced to open an SSD to make his usual QC b4 sending it to a client and realized that there was not a Swiss ETA inside?

[JohnG]

amazing thread!

I think the issue reflects the... ''progress'' of our hobby. After the tremndous replicates of HBB and(?) GMT II ceramic, we all seem to seek better quality in our buys, quality inside and outside our reps.

It would be interesting if someone or some of us, made a sticky thread like this... ''ORIGINAL SWISS ETA MOVEMENT'' with pictures so as anyone who buys a Swiss SSD for example can open it and compare what he had really payed for. I think this would make dealers more responsible ... and buyers more aware....What do u think?

Eurotimez assertion looks promising and i am seriously thinking of buying a rlx rep from him... but i have a question for him...Has he ever experienced to open an SSD to make his usual QC b4 sending it to a client and realized that there was not a Swiss ETA inside?

As to the sticky - not a bad idea - and EuroTimez's pics are the clearest and best explained I have seen. That I have seen only he and Roflwaffle have posted comparison pics (again, that I have seen). But they only cover one movement (though it is possibly the most common "Swiss" ETA movement along with the 2824-2. If I am wrong someone can correct me (if possible without flaming me).

As to your other question - I have read a post by EuroTimez where he states that he has received batches of watches and had to reject MANY during his QC process because they were fake ETA's.

[scoobs1971]

Even Offrei don't ship "sealed bag" ETA movement.. My last 2 was in plastic cases. (look genuine and oiled, but still)

I got mine sealed from Cousins about 6 months ago. They have/had both sealed and loose packs with difference in prices.

[RobbieG]

Well as the party responsible for stirring up this latest round of ETA stuff I would like to offer this: There is no way to try and pin this down to price. I mean, this whole "Get what I paid for...deception" angle is just not working and you are never going to get anywhere with that. Lets consider attacking it from another angle as this debate is more than tired at this point. If you are looking to get watch prices to drop because the ETA's aren't real it ain't gonna happen, and I for one don't blame them. Their costs are already ridiculously low and even the fakes are of a high enough quality to justify a $200 price point. I mean come on guys. Too much of this is motivated by people wanting or other wise thinking they are due a refund because the watch didn't have a real ETA, they were lied to, etc...It isn't going to happen and it doesn't solve your problem going forward so what is the point in continuing to talk about it? It is well documented that even when the default was that most ETA's were real ETA's, they were still many times suspect and bastardized from parts of many sources.

Look, am I the only one who thinks that if the movements were taken completely out that these watches are the best value on the horological planet? A Noobmariner is $200 with the highest quality movement and $100 with the lower one. That tells me the watch is worth a little under $100 empty. What a deal! For $200 you are getting a great watch and if it breaks so does it really matter if it is a real ETA at that price? How about $300? $400. Again, you can't buy better watches for this money anywhere even with name brands that put Asian movements in them as a standard and sell them at department stores!

So if we can agree that the base watch is worth a hair less than the dealers price with the worst movement here is what you do (and what I intend to do with my watches from now on). Contact your dealer and tell him you want the watch but you intend to transplant your own movement in it. You will need a set of hands that fit the ETA's in some cases, but in many cases the lower quality Asian movements hands will fit. Maybe The Zigmeister can clarify the deal on hand sizes for 2836's and 2824's which are the culprits. You can then buy the lowest quality Asian watch for $100, your own 2824 from somewhere. I found this one just now on the bay for $135 which is 100% Swiss and cased - http://cgi.ebay.com/ETA-Automatic-Movement...Q2em118Q2el1247

Then you can have your modder swap the movement out for you for probably $50 or so. Or if the dealer won't sell you the hands and the Asian's don't fit they can be broached quite easily. So for a total of what, $285 or so you will have a true Swiss rep. Without a doubt. Otherwise you can just take your chances with whatever dealer you choose, but keep in mind that I doubt many dealers can even tell the difference any more with these so called ETA's. Again, as Pug said they are so bastardized many times it is hard to make sense of. This is the only way to know for sure

The bottom line is that this movement crap is here to stay in the new China. The truth is they probably need to raise prices but feel the market won't sustain it so they are saving money instead maybe by using the rep movements because they are cheaper. But again, who cares. All that is going to happen is that the websites will change and say replica Swiss ETA instead of Swiss ETA and the price will not change and it will be biz as usual. So please, can whoever do us a favor and not say "yeah but I paid for a Swiss ETA and they lied..."? Please, for the love of God...You paid $200 for the best quality watch the dealer had. If you must know that it is an ETA beyond a shadow of a doubt, you are going to have to start treating this as a necessary mod just like your datewheels, AR CG's and whatever else. Welcome to your new hobby...

Edited June 23, 2008 by RobbieG

[southcoast68]

Reading all this reinforces my current trend in buying reps, only buy the cleaper asian models. A while back I bought a SUB LV from Trusty, his $118 special. It has a Asian movement and guess what, it is one of the best I have considering its price point. It runs great, has a good power reserve, snaps the date over right at 12:00, has great date font, and above all, looks really stunning. Even the crown guards look good and I have compared this very watch along side with a gen, and the little differences I found are not even worth caring about and could even be explained given the differences the gens have from year to year.

Now I'm not saying the next person to buy this model from Trusty would get quite the same experience I did, as always, YOUR mileage may vary. What I am saying is that I took a chance on a $118 rep and won (that time) and I did not have the concern of "getting the swiss movement I paid for". As far as I am concerned, this watch does not need a true ETA to be a joy to wear.

With that being said, I do understand a lot of folks strive to get thier favorite model rep with a true ETA in it. Its based on the feeling that that particular rep is special in the fact that is has a heart that is a cut above a Asian made copy. Its much like owning a gen, the feeling that that particular watch has nothing to proove and truly is something that not everyone alse has or can get. This argument I feel is not going to go away since many folks in this hobby are willing to pay as much as a couple hundred dollars more for a rep due to the fact that it was advertised as having a true Swiss movement inside and these same folks are going to feel ripped off by thier dealer if it is ever proven that what they bought is not what they got.

I also feel that this situation will not change unless our buying habits change. If I think I can get a cool looking, well made and properly functioning rep from another dealer selling only Asian copy movements for a cheaper price, then why go to the extra expense of buying a rep with a supposed swiss movement inside, especially if it is getting this difficult to tell them apart? We all jump at the latest offerings and are often willing to pay a premium for them. Heck, if you have the money and can justify the purchase for yourself, go for it. But realize that the rep industry is always going to hype up a model in hopes of making a sale, its business plain and simple.

As far as having to communicate this back to your dealer, I think the "having it serviced by a watchmaker and supplying written proof that it is not an ETA" and then negotiating a price break on your next purchase or partial refund would be a reasonable way to go. Other than that, getting as educated as you can about the bobby and making informed purchase desicions is your only defense. We are all going to get stuck from time to time, it is just the nature of this hobby (and life), I know it sucks, but unfortunately............

It is interesting when you think that some of the best reps we have seen in the past few years are a lot of times better as an Asian version (Noobmariner, SFSO, UPO Lite, etc.). I can remember getting excited over a rep that had a self winding movement of any brand as opposed to a cheap quartz

Good luck in getting your issue sorted out with your dealer.

[JohnG]

As far as having to communicate this back to your dealer, I think the "having it serviced by a watchmaker and supplying written proof that it is not an ETA" and then negotiating a price break on your next purchase or partial refund would be a reasonable way to go. Other than that, getting as educated as you can about the bobby and making informed purchase desicions is your only defense. We are all going to get stuck from time to time, it is just the nature of this hobby (and life), I know it sucks, but unfortunately............

I think you are right. I am going to wait for that other member who is getting his watch serviced and if once again the opinion reinforces the consensus then I don't think I will even ask for a break. I do not believe that my dealer knew and I will just inform her that this issue exists, what the consensus seems to be, and included the photos. That way appropriate action can be taken if that dealer so chooses. Beyond that I like your comments about the Asian. Last night someone at RG reminded me that Ajoesmith sells the high beat 21J. Perhaps what I will do in the future is buy 21J watches, swap for the higher beat 21J and save myself some money. And if I really want Swiss or one of the more expensive Asian movements I will buy it from EuroTimez (that now goes without saying I guess).

As you suggested, to me it was kind of neat to think that I had a "Swiss" movement in a Chinese copy - it made the watch more interesting in addition to (presumably) more reliable. I really didn't want to believe that the movement was fake. But I also read in the past 24 hours (don't remember what thread - maybe even this one) a post in which the author said that he had 40 I think (maybe 20) watches with 21J movements and that they are very reliable. (The opinions on this seem to conflict but since the movement is so cheap to replace I guess it doesn't really matter one way or the other) I suppose it is just as interesting to have a really nice rep for maybe $150 - all Asian - as to have a really nice rep - Asian/Swiss - for $250 - 300.

I have decided to look at it like this: I bought one watch that was overpriced given the movement is fake. I bought another watch - worn three times by Taka - with a genuine ETA, for $120 (way below what it was worth). If I sum the prices, divide by two, I am probably where I should be. So rather than seek an adjustment maybe I will just give my dealer the information and call it a day.

Thanks to all for the comments. Jnkay, please let me know by pm when you post about the service and your watchmaker's conclusions. Thanks!

[JohnG]

So if we can agree that the base watch is worth a hair less than the dealers price with the worst movement here is what you do (and what I intend to do with my watches from now on). Contact your dealer and tell him you want the watch but you intend to transplant your own movement in it. You will need a set of hands that fit the ETA's in some cases, but in many cases the lower quality Asian movements hands will fit. Maybe The Zigmeister can clarify the deal on hand sizes for 2836's and 2824's which are the culprits. You can then buy the lowest quality Asian watch for $100, your own 2824 from somewhere. I found this one just now on the bay for $135 which is 100% Swiss and cased - http://cgi.ebay.com/ETA-Automatic-Movement...Q2em118Q2el1247

Then you can have your modder swap the movement out for you for probably $50 or so. Or if the dealer won't sell you the hands and the Asian's don't fit they can be broached quite easily. So for a total of what, $285 or so you will have a true Swiss rep. Without a doubt. Otherwise you can just take your chances with whatever dealer you choose, but keep in mind that I doubt many dealers can even tell the difference any more with these so called ETA's. Again, as Pug said they are so bastardized many times it is hard to make sense of. This is the only way to know for sure

Kind of convoluted but it works. I am going to ask what the watchmaker here in my teeny tiny rural Spanish town will charge to swap movements - I'll bet it's not much. But I am glad you mentioned the hands issue - I forgot they don't always swap over...

[P4GTR]

some of the best reps we have seen in the past few years are a lot of times better as an Asian version (SFSO)

Asian SFSO has no double sided AR. Wouldn't say better in this case. Also, my swiss version has a genuine swiss ETA, per a longtime watchsmith, and meets all of Chris's criteria/photos.

Call it what you will, many people did not get what they paid for. To think this isn't going to be heavily discussed here, or be upset that it is seems silly. Isn't that what we do?

[dabom]

Someone implied there's a forum section where the dealers are rated, or where feedback on dealers are centralized? Where is this? I can't find it. I'm interested in feedback on Andrew, as I'm about to spring on a SSD and I want a Swiss ETA. Thanks.

[JohnG]

Someone implied there's a forum section where the dealers are rated, or where feedback on dealers are centralized? Where is this? I can't find it. I'm interested in feedback on Andrew, as I'm about to spring on a SSD and I want a Swiss ETA. Thanks.

They are most of the way down the main page you get after logging in...

Andrew's trade review: http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showforum=111

Trade review section generally: http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showforum=11

[RobbieG]

Asian SFSO has no double sided AR. Wouldn't say better in this case. Also, my swiss version has a genuine swiss ETA, per a longtime watchsmith, and meets all of Chris's criteria/photos.

Call it what you will, many people did not get what they paid for. To think this isn't going to be heavily discussed here, or be upset that it is seems silly. Isn't that what we do?

Yeah, that new Asian SFSO with the updated second hand has way more flaws than yours. I think yours is the best version by far having had it next to my gen.

[P4GTR]

Yeah, that new Asian SFSO with the updated second hand has way more flaws than yours. I think yours is the best version by far having had it next to my gen.

Coming from you that means a lot Robbie.

Something else to consider: As in the case with the SFSO, are they going to leave AR coatings off of the asian versions but include it on the "swiss"? I see this as a potential way to persuade people to buy the swiss versions at a higher premium.

As it stands, I assume the ETA's have dried up and anything I buy from now on to be asian copies. Thats fine, but im not paying $200 more for what boils down to AR. I'd rather send my watches to one of our AR coaters here.

[RobbieG]

Call it what you will, many people did not get what they paid for. To think this isn't going to be heavily discussed here, or be upset that it is seems silly. Isn't that what we do?

[Pink Panther]

My 2 cents worth. I can only speak for myself. I am awaiting delivery of an SSD. In my case I genuinely believed the movement would be a genuine ETA. I really won't know until I receive it and look inside. If it isn't an ETA I will feel like I have been conned and very stupid as well as ultra upset. Additionally I will feel like a complete fool having chosen my dealer and then the rep. Further, to a certain extent and without a shadow of a doubt we tend to support and promote our dealers openly or subtely, we perhaps do this in the hope they will treat us more favourably than the average Joe, but we forget that the majority of their sales are not from the forums.

I could be wrong but I believe there was a comparison between a gen movement and an asian copy on here sometime last year -I can't recall if it was an ETA or 7750 though.

If my SSD does not have a gen ETA I will look toward installing one but do not know if the date-wheel will line up ok.

Could I just add that a quality rep case with an asian copy of an ETA is a bit like the Tin Man from the Wizard of Oz.

Pink P, just another Joe.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Pink Panther

[RobbieG]

Coming from you that means a lot Robbie.

Something else to consider: As in the case with the SFSO, are they going to leave AR coatings off of the asian versions but include it on the "swiss"? I see this as a potential way to persuade people to buy the swiss versions at a higher premium.

As it stands, I assume the ETA's have dried up and anything I buy from now on to be asian copies. Thats fine, but im not paying $200 more for what boils down to AR. I'd rather send my watches to one of our AR coaters here.

No doubt...now THAT is an issue worth discussing. Some of these watches are all about the AR and they will lose alot of biz if they don't start offering the best versions of any watch with any movement...

[highoeyazmuhudee]

it seems the dealers dont care one way or the other. if theyre selling you what we all agree to believe is a swiss eta, and they frequent this board to not be able to play ignorant as to what that is, and you're not getting what you paid for, its simple. we need to stop shopping there, a new addition to the board is eurotimez, who i feel is very honest and offers what we all believe is a genuine swiss eta, so why cant these other dealers live up to his standards of QC and genuine parts? if he can...there is NO reason they cant. the only way merchants seem to get any msg is to talk their language...$$$ stop sending them $$$ because we all suspect certain ones of not sending what they advertise and theyll get the msg and hopefully make changes... either tell the truth about what goes into your watches, take some pride and ownership, adjust the price accordingly, or lose majority of your business and $$. with eurotimez you gte EXACTLY what you pay for, this is fact, why take chances any where else, when you dont have to?

its a matter of principle to get exactly what you paid for, theres a reason you chose and paid more for the swiss eta, instead of the 21j asian movt. quality service ensures repeat business, if youre not satisfied do not repeat your business and the message will be sent. cause i dont hear dealers chimming in here about this issue, out of sight out of mind i guess.

Edited June 23, 2008 by highoeyazmuhudee

[RobbieG]

it seems the dealers dont care one way or the other. if theyre selling you what we all agree to believe is a swiss eta, and they frequent this board to not be able to play ignorant as to what that is, and you're not getting what you paid for, its simple. we need to stop shopping there, a new addition to the board is eurotimez, who i feel is very honest and offers what we all believe is a genuine swiss eta, so why cant these other dealers live up to his standards of QC and genuine parts? if he can...there is NO reason they cant. the only way merchants seem to get any msg is to talk their language...$$$ stop sending them $$$ because we all suspect certain ones of not sending what they advertise and theyll get the msg and hopefully make changes... either tell the truth about what goes into your watches, take some pride and ownership, adjust the price accordingly, or lose majority of your business and $$. with eurotimez you gte EXACTLY what you pay for, this is fact, why take chances any where else, when you dont have to?

its a matter of principle to get exactly what you paid for, theres a reason you chose and paid more for the swiss eta, instead of the 21j asian movt. quality service ensures repeat business, if youre not satisfied do not repeat your business and the message will be sent. cause i dont hear dealers chimming in here about this issue, out of sight out of mind i guess.

Well I hope it works out that way and I beleive he is on it. What I can't figure out though is how he will deal with this situation when it comes up. A watch is made out of one factory only as are many 1:1's, and that factory only sells watches with rep ETA's. So he will swap them out himself in that case. The dealers are only the smallest part of this. The factories are putting whatever movements in the wateches that they are able to source. They are who will dictate what goes in your watches and the dealers will have no control of it. They say these forums are a tiny part of their market and I dout anyone outside these boards will know the difference. If this is the case the factories willcontinue to save money by using rep movements as the new standard if there is a cost benefit. That said, if Eurotimez is offering a swap service that should be worth a premium to him and I hope he gets it.

[Nightstroker]

Sorry, I don't read the whole thread. But I want to help...

The 2836-2 exist with the sword regulator, like you have on your movement. I saw it on some Rado watches, gold plated like yours.

But I have now not the time to search exactly the same movement pic. But here is one in nickel:

Thanks for the pic Omega....very surprised to see this sword adjustment on a gen ETA....even if it is a 2886-2....perhaps the 2836-2 in my pic is real ETA....perhaps NOS....not sure....

Its hard to accept it as swiss when you crack open the case and see something like that....especially when all the pics out there have a screw adjustment....

Has anyone else seen a sword adjustment like that before on swiss ETA?

Sorry if I offend anyone by going off topic with this question....

[alligoat]

I would think that an ETA 2836-2 with the sword adjustment on the balance is OLD. The 2836 dates from the 70's, then the 2836-1 came out for a short time and finally the 2836-2 came out in the early 1980's. ETA's made improvements over the years, but hasn't changed the model number.

Originally, the 7750 had 17 jewels, but it's been improved to 25 jewels. Still a 7750.

[FxrAndy]

Thanks for the pic Omega....very surprised to see this sword adjustment on a gen ETA....even if it is a 2886-2....perhaps the 2836-2 in my pic is real ETA....perhaps NOS....not sure....

Its hard to accept it as swiss when you crack open the case and see something like that....especially when all the pics out there have a screw adjustment....

Has anyone else seen a sword adjustment like that before on swiss ETA?

Sorry if I offend anyone by going off topic with this question....

I have a couple of old 28xx at home in older watches like my Westend watch collection with sword adjusters dont have any movement pictures but i think this also has a 2886 or 2846

so i would belive yours is a gen swiss just old

Have a look here at all the ETA movements ever made and their variations

[Shundi]

My Rado Starliner 999 from the early 70's has a sword adjuster...PM me if anyone needs pics

[jfreeman420]

I have always opted for the "swiss" versions of watches and only purposly purchased an "asian" movement if it is a chronograph or only offered on asian 21j. I don't open my watches but I do notice that the supposed "swiss" watches do have a very smooth sweep. Can anyone tell if the asian ETA clones second hands sweep as smoothly as the swiss counterparts? Is there really any difference in the function of the watch?

If there is no noticable difference I for one will not be paying extra for what may be swiss. It is a replica watch anyway and if it is going to eventually be a paperweight I want to spend as little on it as possible.

At the same time, I don't think the dealers are all to blame here. I am sure most of them have the best intentions when promising swiss ETA, but the factories are slipping a good number through. It is the law of averages. How many people that buy a fake watch actually open the case?

[highoeyazmuhudee]

I have always opted for the "swiss" versions of watches and only purposly purchased an "asian" movement if it is a chronograph or only offered on asian 21j. I don't open my watches but I do notice that the supposed "swiss" watches do have a very smooth sweep. Can anyone tell if the asian ETA clones second hands sweep as smoothly as the swiss counterparts? Is there really any difference in the function of the watch?

If there is no noticable difference I for one will not be paying extra for what may be swiss. It is a replica watch anyway and if it is going to eventually be a paperweight I want to spend as little on it as possible.

At the same time, I don't think the dealers are all to blame here. I am sure most of them have the best intentions when promising swiss ETA, but the factories are slipping a good number through. It is the law of averages. How many people that buy a fake watch actually open the case?

see and thats the problem. thats what theyre banking on. maybe at one point they were swiss eta. rising costs and they take the cheap alternative and keep the branding cause no one will check. dealers are to blame for 2 reasons, for still offering it knowing its not swiss eta, and for not changing the movement as advertised to eta clone when they know. and i KNOW they know whats in their watches i dont believe that excuse for a second. you cant sell something and not know whats in it. their intention is like any other business ..to make money. offer the same watch with a cheaper movt that no one will verify is NOT a clone and you have a greater margin. and the argument that they dont know whats in their watches and theyre ignorant to it, is denial. theyre not gonna start charging less because they cant get swiss etas for the same price anymore, thats counterproductive to what i said about a business. no dealer has said anything about this yet? other than they give store credit if youre not satisfied. there business is watches if they know anything they know whats inside, and if they dont its simple dont buy from them because they obviously have on quality control, find a dealer who goes one step further to earn your money and preform a QC. things will get worse because know one will care and a clone is always cheaper than anything gen. bigger margins.

*the DG4813 is a high beat asian movement for $40 and has a good track record of reliability..fits the n00b case nicely

[Guest CGJ]

Look, am I the only one who thinks that if the movements were taken completely out that these watches are the best value on the horological planet? A Noobmariner is $200 with the highest quality movement and $100 with the lower one. That tells me the watch is worth a little under $100 empty. What a deal! For $200 you are getting a great watch and if it breaks so does it really matter if it is a real ETA at that price? How about $300? $400. Again, you can't buy better watches for this money anywhere even with name brands that put Asian movements in them as a standard and sell them at department stores!

I agree whole heartedly... Who cares about genuine eta or not? if the second hand sweeps smoothly with a 21 jewel japanese movement, then great. These things cost 2-3-400 bucks. My freind envies the [censored] out of me cuz I have a beautiful ss submariner, and he has a fossil watch that cost him about $200 at walmart.

And I'll never tell him my submariner was exactly $199.

[JohnG]

I have always opted for the "swiss" versions of watches and only purposly purchased an "asian" movement if it is a chronograph or only offered on asian 21j. I don't open my watches but I do notice that the supposed "swiss" watches do have a very smooth sweep. Can anyone tell if the asian ETA clones second hands sweep as smoothly as the swiss counterparts? Is there really any difference in the function of the watch?

If there is no noticable difference I for one will not be paying extra for what may be swiss.

The fake ETA 2836-2 is a 28800 bph movement - the same as the gen. According to all those that have expressed an opinion on the subject however, the fake has a significantly higher failure rate.

I agree whole heartedly... Who cares about genuine eta or not?

Clearly quite a few people or they would not be paying a premium price for them. I myself would not mind having an Asian copy - if I had paid for an Asian copy.