Why RWI has removed Josh and Andrew as dealers

[TeeJay]

It's not tough to understand. I for one just don't care because if Josh were the only game in town it would be fine by me. Mostly because I don't buy reps much any more and if I ever do I know I'll get the same price and the same product and great service from him. It is a choice of each individual. I choose to not care about it also because I actually think the current prices are very low and unrealistic to maintain. And when compared to their genuine counterparts the best of these watches would be a good buy to me still at twice the price they sell for now - if I bought one at all. But then that is a whole other discussion, becase if a modded PO is $500 all in or something I'm getting gen every time for only 4x the price of a rep. No brainer for me. It is only a bargain if they are 1/8 the price or less for me at this point which is why I don't buy them much any more. I mean I paid $2200 for my gen Steelfish so the rep has already crossed over for me. So maybe if the gen is ten grand the the HBB and you really want one maybe seven hundred makes sense? Not to me, because when I start getting into ten plus grand watches only the gen will do for a host of other reasons. Reps to me were always centered around the Submariner as it made perfect sense. At one time a 4K watch was just out of reach and so I looked to reps. What I found was a slew of under $200 options which with that again in modding were every bit as good as the real thing. That has more to do with Rolex though. A Sub really isn't all that great of a watch to begin with IMO. Cheap flimsy bracelet, etc. so the rep makes sense. But now we have all these watches being repped which are absolutely LUXURIOUS in every way to begin with and the bar is so high. The reps have to be blinding to get our attention and the economies of scale are shrinking. I just don't know how it can go on and pay for itself other than to charge more to a whole new market of suckers or something. It's like the watches are worth every bit of $500 with blank dials, but then they aren't because they are reps. I really think the future of the industry is still just its past. $200 Submariners that are near perfect out of the box. No further manufacturing costs and a never ending stream of buyers...

Indeed, but, with respect, this is not about your, or my, choices for purchasses or rationale for buying them. It is about behaviour from the Cartel, which falls squarely in the label of 'unacceptable', and has resulted in their being banned from RWI. Personally, given the incidents in the past, the Little White Lies, the claims of water-proofing and servicing of untouched watches, the drop-shipping of watches, and using that as an exuse for the delivered watch differing from the advertized watch to fob off a customer, I feel that this incident should be enough to make the admins of the other forums say "Enough is enough," and for them to stand behind RWI, by imposing identical sanctions on the Cartel, but I have the disappointing feeling that no such sanctions will be taken, and this, like every other betrayal of trust by the Cartel, will go unchecked and unpunished. And why? Both Andrew and Joshua have viewed this thread today, neither have taken the time to comment, explain, defend or deny these issues. They clearly do not care, so why should we, as a community, continue to tollerate such disinterested dealers? Beyond raffle contributions, what do they actually contribute to this community? When was the last time they posted for anything other than to deny a customer issue, or to announce a new product for sale? When was the last time they took part in an off-topic conversation about music, or cars, or women, or any of these things which make this community great? Why do the admins continue to tollerate the presense of two such apathetic people? They [the Cartel] clearly don't care enough to discuss the issue openly, so why should they remain as 'trusted dealers'?

I just find the whole thing very disappointing (even if not unexpected)

[TeeJay]

The forums dont need to do a thing except alow the discussions to go on. I know you are agreeing with me and the way of thinking TJ, but THE CONSUMER has to act not the forums.

I know what you mean, but, what is the point of the community and consumers acting to ignore them as dealers, or warning people away from them, when the forums themselves, which people also put a degree of faith in, refuse to match the sanctions imposed by another forum?

As above, I just find the whole thing very disappointing

[RobbieG]

Well I hear what you are saying but that may be a whole other dicussion even. The definition of a scammer is generally someone like Ideal Watches that sells Noob Subs with "27 jewel Grade 1 Swiss" movements for a grand. What is wrong with that I wonder as long as they ship the watch they advertise? They are guilty of making too much profit? Good for them I say. I gave a so called "scammer" eight hundred for my first Sub and to this day I don't feel scammed. The best cyclops and datewheel I have ever seen and when compared to the genuine watch, worth every penny IMO. I can't just refute that because I find out I can get it later for two hundred. It is still the same watch and it is a good one. Who is to say if it is worth a grand or two hundred. "Worth" is a relative term. My friend buys Coke at a wholesale outlet and gets two litres for .59. I pay .99. Is that a scam? People say it isn't about price but it is.

If I came on this board and met the requisite and said I had the same watches for similar prices - presto - I'm a "trusted" dealer in time. Moreover, all I should have to do to keep that status is service as I say I will and make sure cutomers get their watches. That's it. Even if I raise my prices they will be published so if I am out of line my customers will let me know they don't want to pay my price becuase XYZ has it for cheaper. Maybe I'm washed up but TRUST as a term related to our dealers has always been to provide the best products for a fair price and provide service when they go bad and to offer customs protection. That's it. I think asking more of any dealer is unrealistic. I mean how much do they need to do to earn the business. It is about delivering a product in exchange for money. Nothing more.

Now the lies about movements is something also because now you are talking about not selling what you advertised, and yes, that is cause for trouble, but the actions of a dealer against another in a foreign country we know nothing about and in a Mafioso based caste system? Seems to me that has nothing to do with the dealer/cutomer relationships which are individual ones. That is, if you hear the story about Andrew and you don't like it - easy - boycott him and buy from Angus or whoever - problem solved. All this is just placing the dealer "bar" too high IMO. This is about a watch in exchange for cash and you said yourself that is all they are doing here...

Indeed, but, with respect, this is not about your, or my, choices for purchasses or rationale for buying them. It is about behaviour from the Cartel, which falls squarely in the label of 'unacceptable', and has resulted in their being banned from RWI. Personally, given the incidents in the past, the Little White Lies, the claims of water-proofing and servicing of untouched watches, the drop-shipping of watches, and using that as an exuse for the delivered watch differing from the advertized watch to fob off a customer, I feel that this incident should be enough to make the admins of the other forums say "Enough is enough," and for them to stand behind RWI, by imposing identical sanctions on the Cartel, but I have the disappointing feeling that no such sanctions will be taken, and this, like every other betrayal of trust by the Cartel, will go unchecked and unpunished. And why? Both Andrew and Joshua have viewed this thread today, neither have taken the time to comment, explain, defend or deny these issues. They clearly do not care, so why should we, as a community, continue to tollerate such disinterested dealers? Beyond raffle contributions, what do they actually contribute to this community? When was the last time they posted for anything other than to deny a customer issue, or to announce a new product for sale? When was the last time they took part in an off-topic conversation about music, or cars, or women, or any of these things which make this community great? Why do the admins continue to tollerate the presense of two such apathetic people? They [the Cartel] clearly don't care enough to discuss the issue openly, so why should they remain as 'trusted dealers'?

I just find the whole thing very disappointing (even if not unexpected)

Edited July 27, 2008 by RobbieG

[cornerstone]

@RobbieG & Teejay: I beg you on behalf of the planet - PLEASE can you start using the key that makes blocks of rambling text into neat paragraphs.

It's located here:

[RobbieG]

Sorry. Point taken. I did take an English class or two. Forgot my manners...

@RobbieG & Teejay: I beg you on behalf of the planet - PLEASE can you start using the key that makes blocks of rambling text into neat paragraphs.

It's located here:

[cornerstone]

No worries!

[TeeJay]

@RobbieG & Teejay: I beg you on behalf of the planet - PLEASE can you start using the key that makes blocks of rambling text into neat paragraphs.

It's located here:

I like blocks of rambling text

Use of paragraphs will be considered and applied

[TwoTone]

Sorry. Point taken. I did take an English class or two. Forgot my manners...

And while were discussing Forum Etiquette...

Did you know that if you use the Quote Button at the bottom of each post you can quote more than one post at a time...

Thus reducing the overall post count...

And making the Loop much easier to follow...

Simply click it for each post that you want to reply too then click the reply button at the bottom of the page...

[seanf]

Couple of thoughts. I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Thanks so much for the words of support, guys. It really means a lot to all of us on the RWI Mod Squad. We debated for days and days about what to do about Jandrew. And one concern we did have is whether removing them would end up being better or worse for the RWI members. And we were also very concerned about how the membership would view this. But in the end, we did what we felt was right and justified in the circumstances. Now, I don't know whether Jandrew really care much about our removing them. I suspect that they probably won't feel the pinch in the short term. They've got enough of a customer base built up that they'll be fine, at least for a while.

But they won't have any further referrals from RWI. So I think, in the long term, they'll start seeing a reduction in sales.

Someone in this thread used the example of Paul (Wo-Mart), and I think it's a good one. Jandrew used to be very good dealers-- among the best. But as they got bigger, they got more and more greedy, and less and less responsive to the needs of the forum membership. Same thing happened to Paul. And Paul was eventually kicked off all the boards until he cleaned up his act (although whether he did so is a whole different thread).

Removing Jandrew was easily the biggest and, perhaps, the riskiest decision that we've ever taken, at least since I've been a RWI mod. But it's a decision that, I hope, will be seen as a positive thing for rep collecting in the long run.

[peepshow]

...but the actions of a dealer against another in a foreign country we know nothing about and in a Mafioso based caste system? Seems to me that has nothing to do with the dealer/cutomer relationships which are individual ones. That is, if you hear the story about Andrew and you don't like it - easy - boycott him and buy from Angus or whoever - problem solved. All this is just placing the dealer "bar" too high IMO. This is about a watch in exchange for cash and you said yourself that is all they are doing here...

But the crux of the issue isn't, for me at least, which dealer propsers and which dealer doesn't. This isn't a business ethics question for me, it's about how those actions effect my bottom line.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the reason I take issue with these actions are because IT IS BAD FOR US COLLECTORS.

I don't know any of the dealers here or on any forum, and I couldn't care less which ones succeed and which ones don't. I just can't abide any dealer actions that result in artificially higher prices for us.

[TeeJay]

Well I hear what you are saying but that may be a whole other dicussion even. The definition of a scammer is generally someone like Ideal Watches that sells Noob Subs with "27 jewel Grade 1 Swiss" movements for a grand. What is wrong with that I wonder as long as they ship the watch they advertise? They are guilty of making too much profit? Good for them I say. I gave a so called "scammer" eight hundred for my first Sub and to this day I don't feel scammed. The best cyclops and datewheel I have ever seen and when compared to the genuine watch, worth every penny IMO. I can't just refute that because I find out I can get it later for two hundred. It is still the same watch and it is a good one. Who is to say if it is worth a grand or two hundred. "Worth" is a relative term. My friend buys Coke at a wholesale outlet and gets two litres for .59. I pay .99. Is that a scam? People say it isn't about price but it is.

I quite agree with you. I too, bought my first (and only) Sub from one of the so-called 'scam' sites. EuroFakes, to be precice. Like you, I received a really nice watch, and do not feel in any way 'scammed' by them. Would it have been nice to have got it for $200 from a dealer here? Sure, but, that wasn't the way things worked out, so I'm not going to cry about it. The lesson was learned, and, two years later, the watch does not even see wrist time. Not because it's not working, but because my tastes have evolved away from Rolex.

But, this isn't really the topic of discussion here, and has nothing to do with the Cartel strong-arming smaller dealers...

If I came on this board and met the requisite and said I had the same watches for similar prices - presto - I'm a "trusted" dealer in time. Moreover, all I should have to do to keep that status is service as I say I will and make sure cutomers get their watches. That's it. Even if I raise my prices they will be published so if I am out of line my customers will let me know they don't want to pay my price becuase XYZ has it for cheaper. Maybe I'm washed up but TRUST as a term related to our dealers has always been to provide the best products for a fair price and provide service when they go bad and to offer customs protection. That's it. I think asking more of any dealer is unrealistic. I mean how much do they need to do to earn the business. It is about delivering a product in exchange for money. Nothing more.

Indeed, but, should you fail to maintain the behaviour which earned you the position of 'trusted dealer', would you expect to keep it? Would you expect people to keep defending you for past transactions, or accept that they will judge you based on your current transactions? Would you be bothered if they said you were going to lose the ability to advertise on the forums? If so, would you let such discussion run without commenting on it, or would you make a post to clarify the situation?

Now the lies about movements is something also because now you are talking about not selling what you advertised, and yes, that is cause for trouble, but the actions of a dealer against another in a foreign country we know nothing about and in a Mafioso based caste system? Seems to me that has nothing to do with the dealer/cutomer relationships which are individual ones. That is, if you hear the story about Andrew and you don't like it - easy - boycott him and buy from Angus or whoever - problem solved. All this is just placing the dealer "bar" too high IMO. This is about a watch in exchange for cash and you said yourself that is all they are doing here...

Indeed, this is something else, and indeed, I do boycott the Cartel, for precicely those reasons, but the point is not that I boycot or renounce these dealers, but, that, when one forum bans them over a matter, as a common courtesy to the spirit of inter-forum co-operation, I would expect, or at least, like to see, other forums matching those sanctions.

[TeeJay]

Couple of thoughts. I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Thanks so much for the words of support, guys. It really means a lot to all of us on the RWI Mod Squad. We debated for days and days about what to do about Jandrew. And one concern we did have is whether removing them would end up being better or worse for the RWI members. And we were also very concerned about how the membership would view this. But in the end, we did what we felt was right and justified in the circumstances. Now, I don't know whether Jandrew really care much about our removing them. I suspect that they probably won't feel the pinch in the short term. They've got enough of a customer base built up that they'll be fine, at least for a while.

But they won't have any further referrals from RWI. So I think, in the long term, they'll start seeing a reduction in sales.

Someone in this thread used the example of Paul (Wo-Mart), and I think it's a good one. Jandrew used to be very good dealers-- among the best. But as they got bigger, they got more and more greedy, and less and less responsive to the needs of the forum membership. Same thing happened to Paul. And Paul was eventually kicked off all the boards until he cleaned up his act (although whether he did so is a whole different thread).

Removing Jandrew was easily the biggest and, perhaps, the riskiest decision that we've ever taken, at least since I've been a RWI mod. But it's a decision that, I hope, will be seen as a positive thing for rep collecting in the long run.

I'd just like to say thanks for doing it, I can only hope that other forums follow your example, and, as mentioned, in the spirit of inter-forum co-operation, if it was down to me (which I know it isn't) I'd impose matching sanctions on them. You drew the line in the sand, and, as much or as little as it will do to help, I'll be right behind you defending that line.

[Daytona4me]

Right, but I'm saying that may be about to change with future 1:1 projects and will become exclusive from start to finish. As every one of these 1:1 projects becomes more and more successful, Josh and Andrew gain more power with that factory group by the second...

Sorry to tell you this but the majority of watches purchased for 1:1 projects are financed by makers and other people... J&A have done some.. but they are not the source.... But it sure would benefit them for everyone to think it was!

What is so funny is their last 1:1 project (the Skyland v1) is.... well..... lol.. not so perfect now is it, (hence, buying dial from different maker (the v2)) and giving it away until they can get theirs reworked.

So all is not what appears in never-never-land. And you can bank on that.

[Daytona4me]

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents here on the word "Trusted" copied and pasted my post from RWI from a week ago..

It is my opinion that the definition of a "Trusted Dealer" is one where history has shown that the customer will receive what he has ordered without an exaggeration of the expected product. Model & Type of movement, type of crystal and coatings, services performed to the watch or movement, coatings or treatments to the case and quality or type of lume are examples of things that can be exaggerated. If a dealer was found to be knowingly exaggerating the details of a watch and expressed gross negligence in the control processes that should be expected to be in place prior to selling / shipping a watch, it would be my opinion that the dealer could no longer be "Trusted".

If a dealer threatens another dealer directly or through their supplier in an attempt to decrease competition I think the the label that most appropriately would fit is "Cheating Dealer" or simply.. a CHEAT, and one who conducts business in very poor taste without regard to his customer.

Let's examine the word Competition...

Main Entry:

com

[RobbieG]

Fair enough and agreed. I'm just not sure how much any action is really going to impact any of our bottom line's. But if that is the point of taking a shot at it now harm done. As Sean said, J&A are fine and have their own biz and maybe on the other side it goes a long way in making members feel the board is looking out for them. More power to everyone as far as I'm concerned. It is quite a spectator sport though. Pretty heavy duty...

But the crux of the issue isn't, for me at least, which dealer propsers and which dealer doesn't. This isn't a business ethics question for me, it's about how those actions effect my bottom line.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the reason I take issue with these actions are because IT IS BAD FOR US COLLECTORS.

I don't know any of the dealers here or on any forum, and I couldn't care less which ones succeed and which ones don't. I just can't abide any dealer actions that result in artificially higher prices for us.

[TeeJay]

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents here on the word "Trusted" copied and pasted my post from RWI from a week ago..

I couldn't agree more strongly with what you re-posted

[Daytona4me]

Fair enough and agreed. I'm just not sure how much any action is really going to impact any of our bottom line's.

That's the big question... I guess the best anyone (or any forum) can do is try to make a stand.. and try to have some impact.

If it achieves nothing at all.. at least you can say that you tried.

All this action does is inform others of who and what they are supporting with their money...

You cant TELL me what to do with mine, but maybe I'll be more informed before I type in some credit card numbers.

BTW Robbie,, I recently saw some beautiful pictures of yours recently... I was blown away and intend on searching for others that you have posted.. .you are gifted with a camera!

[RobbieG]

I'm 100% sure that my garbage collector is not a legitimate organization and the FBI thinks so too, but I'm also not doing my community a disservice if I choose to ignore that which doesn't concern me and continue to pay him to collect my trash. His dealings with his competition is no concern of mine. He picks up, I pay. I also just bought a unit in a rather famous construction project in LV which surely has been bid rigged and yet that didn't influence my decision to purchase. But shouldn't it? I mean shouldn't everyone boycott the project entirely even if such things are alleged by third parties only? What if you knew someone was killed (just an illustration - not saying I do) as a result of the bid rigging in say, one of Trumps office buildings in NYC? If you were to lease there aren't you basically just condoning and contributing to organized crime? Everyone should move out immediately or be labeled as doing wrong to their fellow man? Exxon never paid in full for the spill, so if I continue to buy gas from them am I doing the environment a disservice? I think you see my point. If we stand tall on every issue nothing in the world ever gets done. Where do you draw the line? That is all I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say the issues here are not important in some way. The point is you can't figure it all and it's 100% arbitrary and that is the only 100% truth in any of these posts from any of us, and yet so quick some of us are to judge others for that which concerns third parties and as such they could not possibly understand...

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents here on the word "Trusted" copied and pasted my post from RWI from a week ago..

Edited July 27, 2008 by RobbieG

[RobbieG]

Hey thanks man. I'm working on it more and more. I really enjoy it and I'm learning more everyday. I really like natural light so I'm trying to accomplish it all without a light box. Not an easy task! I'm going to try and shoot more gen pieces as I find the time. There are several pictorials here and on TZ that were done relatively recently if you are interested. I'm going to do my UN 42MM Dual Time GMT next...

BTW Robbie,, I recently saw some beautiful pictures of yours recently... I was blown away and intend on searching for others that you have posted.. .you are gifted with a camera!

[doc savage]

The debate has moved pretty far beyond this, but,

RWI was there, but it was removed after they were banned...understandably so.

And what i am saying is that we have proof to some extent of what J and A did. We have no proof that Repgeek is funded by J and A, and I have been assured that they are not.

So yes, we shouldn't fire speculated mess towards RG. If we have proof that they are funded, that they are protecting J and A more so than other dealers, then yes by all means we should flame them because this would have an adverse affect on it's member.

This is not the case, so therefore speculating that RG is somehow in bed with J and A is just that.....speculation......just like the Iraq war, speculation leads to a big mess and broken relations.

I know, but who doesn't love conspiracy theories?

Anyway, the Geek is fine with me even if they do smooch Jandrew's behind. SPARTA!!1 and all that.

[perry563]

Maybe I mised something but can someone tell me where did REPGEEK come from? From my memory it was a brand new forum that "appeared" at the same time that two respected dealers were having some issues on another board. All of a sudden REPGEEK was born out of nowhere.

[josevancouver]

EXACTLY. The consumers buy the product, not the forum. The forum can allow debate and reviews, but the consumers send a message to the dealers/factories when they choose not to pay for lousy service, or substandard product.

Not wanting to get into specific dealers, there have been a few recommended dealers on RG and RWG who have been banned or have received consistently bad reviews. As a consumer, I decided not to buy any products from them (up to the point of getting banned) after reading some of those reviews. I'm sure others did the same thing.

The forums dont need to do a thing except alow the discussions to go on. I know you are agreeing with me and the way of thinking TJ, but THE CONSUMER has to act not the forums.

[TeeJay]

EXACTLY. The consumers buy the product, not the forum. The forum can allow debate and reviews, but the consumers send a message to the dealers/factories when they choose not to pay for lousy service, or substandard product.

Not wanting to get into specific dealers, there have been a few recommended dealers on RG and RWG who have been banned or have received consistently bad reviews. As a consumer, I decided not to buy any products from them (up to the point of getting banned) after reading some of those reviews. I'm sure others did the same thing.

But the forums do not (or rather, should not) allow dealers with issues such as these attributed to them, to maintain a position as 'forum recommended dealers'. Where are the references for EuroFakes, UltimateReplica and the like? They are certainly not in the 'recommended dealer' sections, that's for sure. Multiple issues have arisen about the Cartel, yet, their position remains unchanged.

Yes, of course reviews help buyers with their purchasses and choices, but allowing Cartel Dealers to remain in the 'trusted' catagory, is an insult to everyone who pays money to keep these forums afloat, with the intention that they (the forums) continue to protect consumers from unscrupulous dealers. If someone chooses to keep buying from Jandrew the racketeer, then that's up to them. Their business practices have been exposed on numerous occasions, yet any dissenting voices are always glossed over, ignored, or ridiculed, when instead, the Cartel should have been given it's marching orders, and re-positioned away from the 'trusted dealers' long ago...

[f5mando]

its an ongoing joke from RWG 1

This version of the ass-hat is my personal fave. It gives new meaning to, "Keeping it under one's hat"..

[promotersf]

I've always felt Josh and Andrew were fishy, and this confirms it. When Eddie Lee retired, I was at a loss who to work with. Angus became my guy because he mirrored what my good dealer EL did...fair pricing, good quality goods, and customer service.

The issue isn't business...every business should maximize their profits, that's business. Josh and Andrew will always offer good customer service because...they want to hold onto their business. It's not a question of whether they deliver the goods, it's their intentions. And they have their fans.

Our FORUM is for the best interests of it's MEMBERS. The CARTEL, which they are TRYING to be, are not in the best interests of our members.

The way we can voice our support is to buy from other TRUSTED dealers, and not allow these 2 to enforce their will. Trust me, if they get away with small issues, don't you think they'll try and get away with something bigger in the future?

It's an unfortunate situation, but a situation that we all have to deal with. Whether RWG bans them or not, that's up to our Admin and Mods...what we as members can do is buy elsewhere.