RWG Technical

Very well done, and I have printed this for my reference, as I have not done many of these mods and need the tech info close at hand. Thanks for this, you sure put in a lot of time getting this all done, and being willing to share your hard work with us, is very much appreciated... I am glad to see that some of the stuff I was doing, is the same as you are doing, were both on the same track. Again, thank you for sharing, and mostly for making up a valuable post for those "Do-it-yourself" people here... RG

Count me in, I am guessing that this dial will fit a MBW YM that I have, it's got the standard ETA inside, but being a MBW, I am guessing that the case is a bit different... In any event, for the price, I want one...even if it doesn't fit... RG

Hi everyone… Well back to the daily grind after 3 weeks in Europe. Had a wonderful time, kids had fun, saw lots of neat stuff, got to see my old home in Germany, and overall it was good but tiring as the only adult… Did just over 4000 km (2500 miles) with our small motor home. S L O W L Y getting back into the normal routine for work and home, and of course for watch repairs. Speaking of watch repairs, I have come up with a new way of taking care of my correspondence, all due to spending 1-2 hours on email and PM’s daily. This is too much time and I have to cut down this amount. It’s change and make it manageable, or stop altogether. Basically what I have done is the following: 1. Capabilities list updated, simplified, more information added. This should eliminate many emails. Basically, the capabilities list has everything that I can do, and all the prices…and should answer all your questions. If you want to know what I can do, how much it costs, and how long it takes; send me a PM, and ask for my “Capabilities list”, and I will send it to you at an email address (it’s a word doc). 2. Some prices have changed, genuine/vintage work is more expensive (and rightly so…), and so are chronograph overhauls (7750’s, etc). This is to reflect the time, risk, and going rates for this type of work. Even with the increases, I am well below what other shops charge for the same or better quality workmanship, and I beat their turn times tenfold. The rest of the pricing is basically the same as before. 3. All work is by appointment only, this makes my life and yours much easier. I have gotten quite busy with genuine vintage restorations and my free time is quite limited…if I want to continue to offer my services here, I need to control the volume. I started this system in June, and it has shown to be a time saver for everyone. I take bookings no more than 6 weeks in advance. First part of September is already filling up…and I can only take in a few watches per week… 4. If you’re looking for my services, plse send me a PM with the details, and I will respond to you. 5. I will try and respond to PM’s as quickly as I can, if you have a general technical question, or are looking for the “best” whatever model, plse ask in the open forum - not in private via a PM… I have also received my latest order of longer cannon pins and hour wheels for the PAM’s. Due to the difficulty of getting these parts, I will not be able to sell them to individuals. I have to keep them for my customers for installation in their watches. As before, if your getting any other work done on the watch (lume, service), the installation of the cannon and hour wheel is free…only cost is for parts at $35, as it has been all along. I have done a few interesting projects over the past few months, and hope to find time to post the results soon… As always, I look forward to interesting technical questions and posts, hopefully we get some new movements that I can tear down, inspect, and post the results for everyone to see…I still love to do up posts with pictures and text and details of what I find… If your looking for technical information on movements, how does it work, how-to, etc, plse review my are in the “Experts” subforum, under “Ziggy Zone”…many tech questions are already covered – in detail… My PM is turned back on, and I look forward to a interesting and fun fall with everyone, and also new watches for us to all enjoy. Cheers, RG

Hi everyone, Two weeks into the travels, in the alps today and to Berchesgaden tomorrow and on to Slaltzburg for the weekend. First chance for a internet hookup so I thought I would pop in and say hello. Having a great time, and hope everyone is as well. Havent had time to read the latest so I am really out of touch with the latest news. Take care everyone, and happy travels where ever you may be Till september, Cheers, RG

I wish I could continue this discussion, but I have to go. Have a great August everyone, Randy I hope the V23 makes it back really soon...and I'll see you all in a month... I am sure others can speak about this as well as I could... Be nice to each other, and no ass kissing till I get back, reminds me of the old Hazing days in the military...ah the memories... RG

You said the work was sloppy and fat, isn't that a personal comment? I disagree with that statement. No one is kissing anyone's ass... you have unrealistic expectations and are saying that my work is Sloppy. If that was the case, I wouldn't get repeat business or have the customer base I have. I disagree with your comments and I made that clear. You made and continue to make comments about Sloppy lume work, here is a side lighted example, and you find this quality of workmanship unaceptable...at twice the size you can see with the naked eye? I think it's very good, and I know Mark does as good or better lume work as I do...so I dont' see what the problem is. No problem, that is your point of view, I personally, and I think my customers as well, dont' agree...again, if the above example is sloppy, I can't imagine what you consider a good job...certainly not something I am capable of... RG

They are not fatter at all, they are the same width as they were before being lumed... The lume makes them thicker, it's applied to the dial and by applying it you will see more thickness to it... Yes, dont' get your watch lumed... If you find that at the magnification I have shown in the picture (2X what you can see without a loupe) that it looks "Sloppy", then you simply dont' need to get your watch lumed...if you find the quality of that job "sloppy" I wonder what you find acceptable...these are reps, and the lume is applied by hand... I will make sure I don't do any lume work for you, as the quality of that lume job is the best I can do, and I know Mark (finepics) does as good a job - or better than I do with his lume application. So if that photo is considered "sloppy", then try a commercial shop rather than me or Finepics... RG

By splashing it all over the forum, you have served your purpose, there is no right way to take a comment like this. Be that as it may, I have a bit of time before I fly accross the pond, and will certainly add my comments. I never said I was perfect, but watchmaking is a perfection trade, just as it is with my day job - fixing airplanes and helicopters and fighters, no half ass jobs cut it - 100% - or lives are in jepordy. Of course no lives are at risk with a watch, but I try really hard to make sure there is no evidance that I worked on the watch. As for marks on the dials, many many times, I find that the dials are marked when I open the case, or that the hands are put on wrong and you can't remove them without marking the dial. I use the correct tools and techniques... I do make mistakes, everyone does, when I do, I let the customer know (as in my TRC example of the 1950 dial I marked during bezel removal). I also stand behind my work 100%. If I am not informed of any problems, well then how can I correct them... I can think of many examples where dials were maked due to the above issues, I tell the customer what happened, ask them to look at it in person, and if not pleased, let me know, and I will do the right thing. Some people will send you their watch without even a second glance at it, yet, when you return it to them, they take a 4X loupe and go over every square centimeter of it, and note stuff, that was there all along, but that they did not even note before they sent it off... Well you did mention it, right here - right now...not sure the reason, but in any event, that is what you say and I have no way to confirm or deny this. Why these members would not even mention these problems to me, or allow me to fix my "wrongdoings" is disapointing, especially when my warranty is void as soon as someone else opens the case. And each case is marked when it leaves the shop so I can tell. No one who has delt with me could claim that I am not an open communicator or approachable... So the fact that they sent it to you, and claimed that "I" did the work, and that you needed to fix my errors, without any colaboration from me - that I actually did the work in question - leaves me to ask questions. Maybe I did the work, but did it occur to you that maybe they just told you that I did the work. Unless and until you speak to me about it, your just taking their word for it. Did it ever occure to you that maybe, just maybe, they or someone else did the work, screwed it up, and then sent it to you (since they couldn't go to me, as I had nothing to do with it in the first place) and to save face, they said "Ziggy did the work, but don't tell him...". Without me confirming or denying that I worked on this particular watch, then it's just hearsay, and why you would bring it up in this contex, is beyond me. I have many satisfied customers, stand 100% behind my work, but if not given the chance to make right on a mistake, then there is little I can do for the customer is there... By standing 100% behind my work, that means covering all shipping costs, and repairs to correct my mistakes when they do happen. I have never ever shirked my commitment to my customers - ever... With a warranty like this, why would they pay someone else to get the job done...seems strange to me...especially if I will do it for free... I am guessing these members are in the EU, and as such would have shipped the watch to me...which means they know that 5 days is the max time accross the pond...so excessive turn or shipping times is no excuse...warranty repairs are done the same day received...and shipped the next day. I would love to hear who these "3 members" are, and to know what I did wrong, after all, if you never get feedback, how can you improve what you do??? Not really fair is it... I just got that 1950 from Greece, but won't even mention what it looks like...I am certain no watch that left my shop ever looked like this one does, of that fact, I am certain... On that note, my plane is waiting... RG

Never ever a scratch on the dial...not from me anyway... As for the hands, you will get minor scratches, but if you consider that you have to physically remove the lume with a knife, and handle the hands, there is no way to not have Minor scratches... And it depends on the type of hands, Gold coloured PAM hands Minor scratches, which is unavoidable, but not noticeable unless under bright light, and sometimes only with a loupe... Black painted PAM hands you won't see any scratches, silver ones, minor scratches... Examples... Is this close enough to show any scratches... This is why you super lume the watch... If it leaves my shop, it looks the same or better than when it arrived, minor scratches unavoidable on some types of hands, if you can't accept the minor scratches then dont' get your watch relumed, that message is clear and up front before any lume is applies.....no complaints so far, so it must be acceptable to those getting it done, or they would not be coming back for more... RG

Great to hear, congradulations. Hopefully your notes match up with the book contents... RG

Get paid before you start the work. Do NOT use PAYPAL, all it takes is one person to screw your account up for months...as you can see, people dont' keep their word, who's to say they won't do a chargeback, stay away from paypal... Get paid before you do the work. You did the work, that is your time, and time is money, now the ones who promised to pay you for your time, have backed out, leaving you with time and parts, and no money... Name and shame, to protect the others here who are at risk as well... Do nothing at a loss, get paid first, then deliver the goods, if they dont' like it, they can go somewhere else... RG

Very sorry to hear about all the troubles and the stress that they are causing. I hope the time away will allow you to recharge your batteries and come back and share your knowledge with everyone, you will surely be missed. Thank you for the kind words, if I can ever help with anything, plse let me know. All the best from a Bluenoser and fellow Canuck... RG

@drf No, your not one of those "people" I was referring to...so no worries there. Your crown question is fine, and you certainly did not inconvenience me at all... I have a bit of free time before I leave, and thought I would browse... On the Palp crown, I have installed a few of them, and unlike the Lello crown, there were no modifications required to the case tube, and the stem had to be replaced, as the original one was too short...the only other work you would have to do, is most likely file the CG lever down a bit to get it to seat correctly...as far as installs go, this is an easy straight forward one...I just haven't had the time to do up a detailed post... My PM is shut off, but I will be back in September, and I have my latest order of cannon and hour wheels in stock... Cheers RG

Well my time for holidays is fast approaching, and as such, I will be off the forum until September. So I hope everyone has a great summer and I hope to see everyone again in the fall. Before I go, I have to share a couple of things with you, as it’s going to affect my participation come the fall. When I come back in September, I will be doing things differently. Basically I am spending 1-2 or more hours a day on emails and PM’s, and it has to stop. It’s one thing to be helpful, it’s another to be a prisoner to these forums or emails. This is part of the reason why I took a break in June and turned off my PM. Haven’t decided if I will turn it back on or not when I come back. As for the emails, imagine getting these all the time: “I shipped my watch to you today…” “Ok, as soon as it gets here, I will let you know…” A day goes by… “Did my watch arrive yet, I am getting worried?” “No, as soon as it does, I will let you know - as I already said” Another couple of days go by… URGENT Email “Has my watch arrived yet, I am getting really worried, as I see by the tracking that it’s in customs and I am worried, can you call customs and make sure it’s ok or drive over and talk to them…please call them right away so that you can explain to them about my watch…” “No, I will not call customs, don’t worry about it, when it gets here, I WILL LET YOU KNOW…until that time, there is nothing I can do” One more day… More problems, please respond right away “I checked on the tracking, it cleared customs like you said it would, but they tried to deliver it to your house, and YOU WERE NOT HOME. So I have tried to call the number at your local post office and tell them that this is my watch, and not to send it back, as soon as you get this message, call the post office, here is their address and phone number in case you don’t have it.” “Sigh…” Since you can see the tracking on the website and the tracking shows when it’s at my house, there is no need for me to tell you that it has arrived. Then I have the ones who I mistakenly gave my phone numbers to. House phone rings, I see the name and ignore it, so it rings 15 times…then as soon as it stops, the cell phone rings, and goes to the answering machine after 3 rings, then the house phone rings another 15 times, and then the emails start…and then the cell phone rings again…and they wonder why I don’t respond…who would want to…some people have no appreciation for other people’s time and are just rude. These scenarios are happening far too often, and I need a new approach. The other part of this correspondence burden, is the special requests, or what I call “tell me in 2000 words or more about my watch”. This is an example: “Can you tell me in detail the condition of the movement, how it looked, the fit and finish of the parts, the cleanliness of all the sections, oiling, adjustments etc, and what you think of this particular movement vis a vis others you have had in the shop, and how this one compares to the average ones, is it better, worse or about normal, and based on this how long do you think I should wait until the next service, and if I wait a bit longer than this what will that do to the watch, and what types of oils do you use, and tell me how it looked on the analyzer and ….” People forget that these requests take time, and added up they take a LOT of TIME. Sitting at my end, it has become an ever-increasing burden, so much so that I either change the way I approach this, or stop doing it all together. Anyway, that is a small bit of insight into the problems that I have gotten myself into with emails and pm’s due to my generosity. I haven’t even touched on the requests to give watch-making lessons via email…or to come to the rescue of would-be watchmakers. These people try something once, have success, and then hang out a shingle “I can repair watches or do XXX for you, send me your watch”. Problem is they don’t bother to take any training, or practice, or read up on watch making. And each and every time, it comes back to bite them – hard. They find out quickly (after causing big $$$ in damage - and expecting me to fix it and get them out of trouble so they can save face) that there is more to this watch making stuff than can be based on one fluke of a success. It’s not rocket science (apologies to the rocket scientists on the forum), but it does take skill, knowledge, and training and time to be able to do this work. And, unbelievable as it seems, there are some people on here - that for one reason or another - I don’t want to have anything to do with (either from reading their responses on the forum, or in PM or email correspondence to me). I don’t feel I need to explain my reasons why, it’s my choice after all. If I don’t answer you, maybe it’s because I don’t want to have anything to do with you. By continuing to try and get an answer out of me, you simply confirm why I don’t want to have dealings with you in the first place. I may also ask that the Q&A section get removed from my area of the forum. Some people avoid the email or PM blockage by posting the question in this section for all to see, and then I feel forced to respond, because if I don’t, it looks like I am not being helpful… The general watch repair and upgrade area seems to serve it’s purpose. Then there are those who ask a question, and once answered, don’t even have the decency to say “thanks…” disappointing…if I take the time to answer you, at least acknowledge it. Thanks for reading my issues (if indeed you read it all). I have a new capabilities list for the fall with some changes to genuine overhaul pricing, and I also received my latest order of longer cannon and hour wheels to correct the short pin issue on the PAM’s… Both will be available in September. I either change how I do mail order work, or only concentrate on local work, I can’t continue as I have in the past… I can only imagine what the dealers go though everyday…I feel for them… Have a great August. Cheers, RG

When you press the bottom pusher to reset the movement, it does two things, 1. it presses against the chrono Cam and moves it to the reset position, and 2. it pushes against the 12 hour reset lever and resets the 12 hour counter to "12". When the button is pushed, the Chrono Cam should go to the reset position immediatly, and the hammer should position the seconds and minute counters to "12". It works like a switch. The 12 hour wheel is not a switch, and if you press slowly you can actually move the 12 hour slowly to "12". It sounds like the Chrono Cam is not resetting instantly, but it's jamming up, until you release the button when both hands go to "12". Not sure why it's doing this, could be a number of reasons... I don't remember seeing this before so I am not sure what the fix would be. As long as the hands reset to "12" after the button is released, it should be fine... RG

What about picking one from this list of generic ones, Balance spring selection. RG

All your answers are here... Info Check the rest of the area and there are many posts with answers to common questions... RG

You need to have a watchmaker look at it and fix it, it's not a Do-it-yourself job... RG

Getting short on time as my trip to the EU is coming up fast...just a quick and dirty update. All together and running... After the 20 hours in the ultrasonic machine, came out nice and clean...compared to how it went in... Fully assembled, oiled, and all the chono adjutments done... Dial side... Case tapped for a 7mm case tube... Got it cased, had to make 2 custom case clamps to hold it in place, got them done, and it's looking good...there is no crown tube installed that's why it looks funky...everything works pushers etc... Cheers, RG

I know exactly how you feel, have done it in the past, and it's no fun... RG

Never ever force anything, you could cause irreversable damage... As already stated, you need to find out what is causing the resistance, is it that the crown is not pulling out far enough to engage into the 3rd positon, or that the crown wont' pull out far enough and is touching the inner part of the crown guard, or that the crown is rubbing against the crown guard... Either way, you need to do some troubleshooting on your end before better advice can be given. As for using the chrono, here is the quick and dirty: Top Pusher. Starts, stops the chrono. You push and the chrono starts, you push again and the chrono stops. If you press again, it starts again. There is no limit to how many times you can press this button in a row, or a time limit on how long you have to wait between each press, or whatever. Everytime you press it, the lever inside moves a cam, the chrono either runs or stops, I can press mine 25 times in 10 seconds and it does no harm...these movements are idiot proof (not meaning you personally) Bottom pusher. When the chono is in the STOPPED REset Position, the bottom pusher will always move the 12 hour wheel to the reset position. In other words, if the chono is reset meaning the 30 minute and chrono seconds are in the reset positions, pressing the bottom lever moves a lever and resets or attempts to reset the 12 hour wheel - it does nothing else, and you can press it to your heart's content...meaning all the time and as often as you like... If the top pusher is pressed and the chrono is turned on, then the bottom pusher does NOTHING, so you can logically press it to your hearts content again... When the chrono is in the stopped position, meaning you started it, and then stopped it with the top pusher, then by pressing the bottom pusher, you will cause the cam to move and reset the seconds and 30 minute timer, it also as discussed above resets the 12 hour wheel. Once the bottom pusher is presses the first time, and the seconds and 30 minute timers are reset, they stay in that position and can only be moved out of it by pressing the top pusher... These movements have no quirks or restrictions on what you can and can't do with them, they are designed to be fail safe from the users...so my friend, press to your hearts desire and do not be afraid of the chrono... Let us know on the time setting issue... If it's not clear, let me know... RG

The + - will not compensate for 5 minutes an hour, it can compensate for about 1 minute every 24 hours... Your hairspring is touching something, or twisted up... Chances of getting it fixed on your own are slim, there is a risk you could damage it beyond repair. If you have a local watchmaker you could have them take care of it, as typically it's a quick and easy fix. It got that way probably due to getting bumped during shipping. Slapping, or shaking the movement in hopes of getting it to seat correctly, is not recommended and could cause more damage. You can try to let it run down and sometimes the hairspring will go to it's normal position when it's at rest and not moving. A high quality picture of the movement would reveal the exact problem. RG

Well what do we have here…I thought those pictures looked familiar… Since I seem to be the horse in this discussion, thought I would share some of the stuff I found on this one, and then let you know where it stands now (in terms of functionality) after about 6 hours of work on the movement. Whenever I get a movement like this in, meaning one that is not running and from initial inspection has missing parts, damage on some screws (meaning a hacker worked on it in the past – and that is not directed to Randy – he bought it used…) I take it apart before I do anything else. Why? Because the risk is too high for me to even wind the movement, and as you will see, my fears were well founded. So what did I see initially and what did I have to work with (this is the shortened version, and should give you a bit of insight into the amount of work needed on some of these models…) The 30 minute timer set spring is missing, it's the one on the right of the [censored] for the seconds and 30 minute wheels, and holds the 30 minute gear in each notch as it ticks over each minute. I have no spares from a V23, and even if I did, the screw that holds it down is sheared off and broken in the mainplate. I will try and glue one of my spare ones from my scrap stuff and make it work...should be fine. Lots of dirt and stuff throughout the movement, as you could see in the pics, did you note the axel grease in the mainspring barrel… The reason the watch was not running, as I removed the [censored] for the escape wheel and the second gear, I found a screw sitting in the gears, that is jammed into the escape and seconds wheel gears,...no idea where it came from. Now you know why I open and carefully tear the movement down as that screw could have ruined the movement… No other problems noted during disassembly, except for a dry and dirty movement. To get it cleaned up, I had to put it in two types of cleaner and ran it through the ultrasonic machine 3 times over a period of 20 hours…even after this, some parts I had to hand clean with pegwood. So after a good cleaning I was ready to inspect and start assembly. Luckily there was no damage to any of the gears due to the loose screw. I reassembled the mainspring and started on the motion works…everything went well, and after the basic motion works were assembled and oiled, I tried winding the movement to check for freeplay and friction, both were good and the motion works was fine. Next came the pallet arm, due to the age of the movement, and the risk of the varnish drying out and the pallet stones falling out, I put a spot of glue on both stones. Then I cleaned the impulse and locking faces of the stones, and put some pallet stone oil on the entry stone. Pallet was installed, and the next part to go in was the balance wheel. During disassembly I noted that the balance wheel was missing the hairspring stud screw, and the stud was glued in place…this would prove to be a problem… Balance installed, and the cap jewels cleaned and oiled and installed…now the big test, wind the movement, and hope it runs…yes, it ran, so after looking at it and checking the swing, I put it on the timer…Oh Oh, something is not right, to get the timing right (after I set the beat) the regulator arm is next to the stud arm..it should be about 90 degrees away…Hmmm…what is going on…visual inspection revealed the problem, the hairspring is bent like a banana and actually touching the second wheel as it expands during it’s swing… Since it’s touching the second wheel, it in effect is causing the spring to effectively be shorter, shorter spring, faster running watch, which is why the regulator arm is all the way over next to the stud arm… So my glued hairspring stud is going to have to come apart…before I start on this – knowing the risks on an old movement like this – I look on the Ofrei site on the cost of a V23 Balance…Hmmm, as if there wasn’t enough pressure, a replacement balance (of which none are available) is listed at $2500 US…that Bob Frei, what an idiot… So I scrape the glue off the stud arm, remove the balance and [censored] from the movement, and then proceed to disassemble the balance from the [censored]. I have to do this so I can bend the hairspring and get it level…normally this is quite easy as you just have to loosen the screw, but I am dealing with a glued stud on a hairspring….finally I got it out…short version is it took 3 full disassemblies of the balance to get the hairspring bent and parallel to the wheel and working as it should…in the end, I fixed it, and the regulator arm is 90 degrees from the stud arm, and the movement is working excellent. So I let it run for a while and recheck the hairspring to make sure it’s going to stay where I bent it to. Now I move on to the chrono parts and reassembling and oiling them…no real problems, some of the levers and stuff are sticky due to age, but disassembly and hand cleaning with a pegwood achieves the results I need, and it all frees up and works fine. All of the chrono adjustments were out, and since most are interconnected (meaning you move one, and the others are affected…) it takes a while to get them all right… Rest of assembly goes fine, and when I get to the missing 30 minute spring for the counter, I find one in my scrap bin, install it over the eccentric screw (amazingly it fits), adjust it in the reset position centered between the gear teeth, and glue the spring in place. Once adjusted it needs no further adjustment. Chrono is started and run, and all the various adjustments for the gears, the second wheel and how it engages to the 30 minute wheel, and the reset position and adjustments are done, and it’s working good… That was finished last night, and the chrono was left running all night, to test all the parts, and this morning the watch is still running strong, good swing, and keeping good time… Now all that is left is to install the dial and hands, and get it fitted into the case… That is a shortened version of what was done and checked and adjusted on this one. This being the extreme due to age and some damage, but typically all chrono’s need to be adjusted after service, since the most aren’t adjusted correctly to begin with… And yes, as Randy said, this model is much simpler than a 7750 when it comes to assembly… And being the big tease that I am, I called Randy’s work number and left a recording on his machine of the watch ticking on the analyzer so he could hear it…”Tic toc, tic toc...” sleep tight Randy, your baby will be on the way next week… Thanks for reading, hope it provides a bit of insight into the fun I have on the workbench… I’ll take some shots tonight of it assembled and cleaned up and the printout reading…it looks much better now, and runs perfect… And thanks for the kind words from those I have had the privelage of working on their watches...and it is a privelage for me to work on something so personal. RG

Thank god someone beat me to it... That is like saying, "Well I ran out of motor oil, shouldn't be a problem if I use transmission fluid in the engine since that's all I have around..." There are no short cuts in watchmaking, it's black or white... The odds of you disassembling the movement without damage are remote, forget assembly, as unless your trained, you will destroy it... RG

Mark has done a great job covering the question. The caution on the stem release is a valid one, the push release models are terrible... Big problem is also the rust on some of these models, certainly all the rep ones I have seen had rust... Thanks for the kind words, glad you found some useful info in there... RG