kramerica2 Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 This has been discussed around here every now and then, but I'm trying to get the true info from someone that's maybe involved in the business. I began my search for a rep after a friend came back from Thailand with a cheap Breitling rep, that to my un-trained eyes back then looked identical to the gen. Of-course that now, although I'm not an expert by any means, I can tell that it's a rep from 5 feet away. At first, I was shocked to see that people are buying reps for more than 200$ (how naive, ah?) and figured that they must be identical from the outside to the gens. I was truely surprised to see those prices for chineese made watches, that are in most cases far from perfect. Of-course, after diving into the world, and understading a bit how things work, it made a bit more sense, but I decided that I'll keep my reps under 150$ and so far, lived up to my decision. What intrigues me is what are we really paying for? You can get an automatic Seiko for about 100$ with warranty, which is what rep dealers are selling virtually no QA nor warranty chineese made cheap auto or quartz movement for... Not to talk about the 300$ reps, which could stop working a week after you buy them, and the only thing you can do is pay another 100$ in order to fix them. So, assuming Seiko are making a nice profit, even when they provide warranty, QAing they're products, spend money on advertising, probably pay more to their employees, using better materials, etc... the profit margin those rep makers get must be huge. Now, I believe that there are two reasons why reps cost so much: 1. People are willing to buy them for that price. 2. The quality rep market, and specifically the private quailty rep market is very small. Without a very big profit margin, dealers wouldn't bother selling to private buyers and would only focus on wholesale. What do you think? Are the prices reasonable in your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 What do you think? Are the prices reasonable in your opinion? You won't get a genuine automatic chronograph with sapphire crystal for $300. Try it and get back to me. Even the Seiko Monster, one of the best valued gen watches out there doesn't have a sapphire crystal or AR coating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailboss Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 +1 on the auto gen. Not for 100 bucks you won't. Your two reasons are proberly about right but add: 3/ people are engageing in an ilicit trade that could concivibly have them thrown in prison so they expect good margins to cover both that and possible losses (if somone rips you off for 10Gs you can't run to the cops can you? 4/ Factories and wholesalers in China are paying a fortune in bribes and protection money to goverment/party officials and the Chinese Mafia. Col. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Call me snobbish, but who the hell wants to wear a Seiko? Not that they're not good watches... they certainly are, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayward Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Call me snobbish, but who the hell wants to wear a Seiko? +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramerica2 Posted August 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Call me snobbish, but who the hell wants to wear a Seiko? Not that they're not good watches... they certainly are, but... I totally agree (hey, that's why I'm here), but it was just an example to show the profit margins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I think that's the main question, really. We're all attracted to luxury brands and even if we're not here (necessarily) to get watches to deceive, we still want to wear these luxurious designs and have fun with them. Many of us also own gens of the luxury brands. I owned a Seiko Orange Monster and it's a great watch for the money. Just like Toyota and Mazda are great cars (for the money). But they're not fascinating in any shape or form. But I'm sure Breguet and Patek owners think the same way about Rolex, TAG, Breitling and Omega. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkay Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I think the collectors and factories see what we are willing to pay an artisan to make the watches perfect, and decided there is a lot of untapped cash out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailboss Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Call me snobbish, but who the hell wants to wear a Seiko? Not that they're not good watches... they certainly are, but... SO I supose the Indiglow I happen to be wearing ATM (seriously) ain't gunna cut it either? Seriously I have a few Seikos including my fave 80's quartz chrono (the watch I set all the others by) and I actualy do like them. Col. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stilty Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Call me snobbish, but who the hell wants to wear a Seiko? Well, if I was able to afford one, and was actually approved to buy one, I certainly would! But we are talking about a whole different level of Seiko. Seiko has a very small department called the micro arts studio where they create some amazing timepieces. One for example is the Credor Sonnerie. This features spring drive, and an hour chime similar to a Japanese hanging bell. Seiko Credor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 But I'm sure Breguet and Patek owners think the same way about Rolex, TAG, Breitling and Omega. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Yep. Seiko is an excellent watch brand. Grand Seikos are marvellous watches and technically equal to their Swiss rivals. I just think that high end reps and cheap Japanese brands don't generally make a good comparison. I doubt anyone comes here because he simply wants a decent watch to wear... some are here because they either want to deceive their friends with a fake Submariner, or then they're WIS (like most regulars) who simply want to enjoy the luxury designs and want to own many luxury watches for less money. Or maybe even "test the waters" with a rep (and later buy the gen). That's why the thought "why I'm paying $350 for this rep when I could get a decent Seiko/Citizen/Orient for the same price" doesn't make much sense. Paying over $100 for a watch doesn't make sense, either... let alone $5K for a gen Rolex. Still many of us own them. Why should eveything in this world have to make sense anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I'd love a Credor Sonnerie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I'd love a Seiko Marinemaster 600m Spring Drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I'd love a Seiko Marinemaster 600m Spring Drive. +1 on that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 As I look at my wrist, it takes me WAY beyond your question. Rather than talk in terms of a $300 rep, why did I pay about $500 for a vintage COMEX, just to send it straight to Ziggy and spend another $500 on it, when $1000 will buy a VERY nice gen with a warranty. I suppose it is because I have several gens in that price range that sit in a drawer, and I don't even bother to display them next to the collection of MBWs, TD Bests, and so forth that I really like. If wearing a $1000 gen, where would you go to talk about it? Where would you go to find people anxious to examine pictures of it? Why would I bother when my I-Phone keeps perfect time? I think hobbies are called hobbies because they don't need to make sense. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramerica2 Posted August 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Nice answers everyone, but you took the thread to the wrong direction. I'm not saying that you better spend 300$ on a Seiko/Citizen rather than on a rep. All I'm saying is that those reps in terms of quality comparing to the cheap gens, aren't worth 300$. I mean, you wouldn't pay for the exact same watch, with the exact same design and features, but without the logo/brand name more than 50-100$ at best. And the factories would still make a nice profit at those prices. But I guess that manufacturing cost isn't the issue at all, as long as people would pay 300-400$, they would charge it. BTW, I get the feeling reps are getting worse in the last couple of years, and I think its deliberate. Just some examples that pop in my head: 4th gen 42mm PO is no longer made (or at least very hard to find) and has been replaced with a worse model, the "Old school" SMP is much better than the current one, we start to see SOSF of new generation that are worse, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 BTW, I get the feeling reps are getting worse in the last couple of years, and I think its deliberate. It's not deliberate. Different factories come in and produce cheaper versions to undercut the existing models - decline in quality equals an increase in profit. There is no over-arching conspiracy amongst factories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrmindalliance Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 It's possible to buy good, even great, quality gen automatic watches for under $100 (USD I'm assuming). I only own one "HQ" rep so far, the noobmariner and from what I've read it's considered the second or third best sub rep out there. IMHO, ompared to even cheap gens it's very underwhelming. Below is one of the watches from my gen collection. It's an "Industrie" brand and the construction is exceptional. Admitedly, I got it at the end of financial year sales about a month ago. But I picked it up, and three others while I was at it, reduced from 399 to 69 AUD (that's about 60USD or 40 Euro), as you can see from the attached receipt image. Sure it's not Omega and it's not a swiss movement but it keeps impeccable time, has a five year warranty and I like it. When I wear this watch everyone who sees it wants a closer look and thinks its beautiful. Oh, it's 42mm and weights 190grams. As many nice gens as I own though, I still plan on buying more reps (UPO is next)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Below is one of the watches from my gen collection. It's an "Industrie" brand and the construction is exceptional. Sapphire crystal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 You can get an automatic Seiko for about 100$ with warranty, which is what rep dealers are selling virtually no QA nor warranty chineese made cheap auto or quartz movement for... You try getting the sum of the parts of a good rep for that price over here, belive me you will not never mind having an assembled watch You won't get a genuine automatic chronograph with sapphire crystal for $300. Try it and get back to me. Even the Seiko Monster, one of the best valued gen watches out there doesn't have a sapphire crystal or AR coating. Plus 1 i have looked and tried, you cant Rather than talk in terms of a $300 rep, why did I pay about $500 for a vintage COMEX, just to send it straight to Ziggy and spend another $500 on it, when $1000 will buy a VERY nice gen with a warranty. Bill Becase you will have one hell of a nice watch that looks like it is worth a hell of a lot more but to you may just as well be priceless, Its in the chase! Nice answers everyone, but you took the thread to the wrong direction. I'm not saying that you better spend 300$ on a Seiko/Citizen rather than on a rep. All I'm saying is that those reps in terms of quality comparing to the cheap gens, aren't worth 300$. I mean, you wouldn't pay for the exact same watch, with the exact same design and features, but without the logo/brand name more than 50-100$ at best. If i could find the parts distributor that sold some of the rep cases i would be having them made with my own brand, SFSO what a quality case! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrmindalliance Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Sapphire crystal? This one is, yeah, but it's the only one that says limited edittion. The others in the range I bought are mineral. Also this one has a Jap auto while the others are Philipines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gioarmani Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 (edited) I believe (aside from the elementary principle of basic supply & demand) the two main sources that eat the majority of the profit from these pieces, thus the two main factors contributing to their prices are: 1, the "factories"--and them charging enough to cover what they feel is worth the risk of legal liability for actively committing copyright infringement, and 2, the dealers (the factory's "salesmen") who--unlike most industries salesmen--are heavily involved and consistently influential in what their respective factories are producing. Edited August 16, 2009 by gioarmani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 It always makes me smile when people on a rep forum put down the likes Of Seiko. Seiko just happens to be one of the most respected watch companys In the world, and for good reason. One of the few watch manufactures that have there own In house movements. No waiting for months or sometime years for ETA to deliver. The Sportura line are some of the best watches made. They are so sought out that there Is useualy a waiting list on many models. I like to think of Reps as the hyundais of the watch world. Remember about twenty years ago, Hyundais were a joke In the auto Industry,everyone laughed at the Korean upstart. But Hyundai did as Toyota and Honda did years earlier, they got better and better. It was not long ago that Reps were a joke, a gag gift If you will, not anymore. The Chinese like the Koreans wanted to be taken seriously. Over the years they to have become better and better at what they do. I think this very community Is condusive of that. The bottom line Is this, If you feel that your paying to much for a rep then buy a Gen. Case In point..... How many complaints do we hear about reps these days, not many. Movements like the 7750 and the likes are very good compared to what they use to be like. With proper care and service they can last for many years. Mind you this Is for pennies on the dollar. I supose thats what Im paying for, and Im happy to do It, over and over again. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 It always makes me smile when people on a rep forum put down the likes Of Seiko. Who has "put down" Seiko in this thread? No one. Everyone has stated that Seiko makes a good watch. Just like Toyota makes a good car. Toyota can be even better than Mercedes (in some ways), but status wise it's from different planet. Best Seikos can be just as good as Rolex but it's still a no-brainer that these brands are light years apart when it comes to name and prestige. That's why there are no (serious) reps of Seiko and that's why reps of the prestigious brands sell. And that's why Seiko and reps don't compete against eachother. No reason to get offended. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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