To wear or not to wear

[Ronin]

First, I am in 100% agreement with Lani here, and use the same "guidelines" he mentioned.

Next to play Devil's advocate regarding:

I also recently read about cartel involvement in the manufacture of replica handbags, shoes and watches and the human rights issues that go along with them. Children forced to work, mothers, daughters and older people forced to work for little pay and punishment. The rep industry supports some of the most violent and ruthless criminals in the world and all for what? so we can feel a bit better about ourselves wearing a "faux" rolex or whatever the brand? It is plain selfish and a movement i do not want to be part of anymore.

This is a choose your altruistic path kind of a thing. I can argue the exact same thing about the Cattle/Beef Industry. 80% of Rain Forest deforestation is to raise cattle or grow corn to raise cattle. Next, there is a lot of immigrant/bordering on slave labor in many of the slaughterhouses. Water consumption, and water pollution from factory farms. (I am not saying I am anti-Cattle/Beef industry, just illustrating my point.)

So this argument is somewhat moot. Perhaps you won't wear a Cartel watch, but you might still eat a Steak... Both can be seen in equally negative light.

[wombat247]

Big box store selling chinese products i get that. So when a big box store e.g. walmart, kmart etc.... they pay taxes, which in turn benefit the community in which they are sold, so the money is flowing in a positive direction. Unlike the counterfeit market which has 70 to 80 percent flowing into cartels which operate in people smuggling, black mail, sweat shops, drug trafficking etc.... Drawing parallels to an illegal sweat shop and say a vietnamese nike production facility of today is well i guess pulling the long bow yet again.

Humans are great rationalizers.

[wombat247]

O and if you don't care about the brand and just like the design. here is a great new submariner

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/SUBMARINER-STEEL-AUTOMATIC-MEN-WATCH-GERMAN_W0QQitemZ230369304165QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Watches?hash=item35a3149e65&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Funny- notice how not only the dial is illegible but also that the seller never mentions the brand?

[maxman]

Thanks for the topic. I treat my reps like I treat any other of my watches, of corse Im a little more gentel with my reps. That being said I really dont see that much difference between my reps and gens. They are watches I like to wear. What people think or may not think Is really no concern of mine. If I felt uncomfortable wearing my reps In public then I would not purchase them. I really dont see the point of having a watch that you only wear In the privacy of your own home. I think you would also be suprised If you knew how many people wear reps, they just dont talk about It, again thanks for the topic. Mike

[ubiquitous]

I always enjoy reading these topics... Interesting to observe the logic and rationale behind an individual's choice.

Personally, I love watches; that's a general statement. I have great respect for genuine brands, and I believe that reps are only supporting proof that the watches and the items they are replicating are successful; otherwise, they wouldn't bother. I also enjoy reps, and I enjoy building watches. That's no secret. To me, it's a different facet to the hobby and one I enjoy purely for personal reasons. Some people build model cars, or do wood working or pottery... Or even build full scale driveable replica cars. I like to do the same except with watches. Of course, with a gen, you can't build a watch to look more gen like; it's already there. The challenge for me is to make a rep look gen... Not to try and pass of as genuine, but to see what can be done, and of course to enjoy. For the money I've spent in putting things together, I could have bought several gens, so that's certainly not the point for me. But I can say that building frankensteins has given me a greater understanding and appreciation for what goes into a mechanical watch. That is without a doubt.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We're all here for different reasons. As different individuals, that's to be expected. But at the end of the day... It's just a watch. No one is really going to care about what you have, except for maybe that one brief moment when they happen to catch a slight glimpse of your wrist as you're walking by and they wonder- Was that what I think I just saw? Does it matter what one thinks about another? If you care, then I'd argue that life's too short to worry about such things. If you like what you have, then that's all that matters. If you feel that gen is the only way you can go, then that's up to you. If you enjoy reps for what they are, even better. But we should all spend less time worrying about what others think and start focusing on more important matters in life... Like who has the best sexy avatar?

[I want Daytona]

I just bought my first rep here. A Tag Heuer Carrera Racing. I am going to wear it as a beater Mon-Fri at work. Otherwise, I will wear my Gen Omega PO. I plan to buy one more rep and one more gen. Don't know which ones yet, that's why I am here.

Also, when I wear my rep, I am free advertising for Tag Heuer. I look good in it, and conversations occasionally leads to my watch. Tag should pay me instead imho.

It's that simple. No politics, no bitching, no bull$hit. That's all I have to say.

Edited August 27, 2009 by I want Daytona

[TeeJay]

I don't think the feeling of owning a gen can be realised 'trying it on' in the AD, if you had owned one then sold it a little while later.. I would have understood.

Obviously I can't speak on your behalf, but personally speaking, if I try an item on in a store, I know if I like said product enough to buy it. I also know that if I am not 100% impressed by said item, I am not going to buy it. As I mentioned in another topic, the majority of the gens I have tried on recently not only failed to impress me, but I actually disliked them. I didn't have to buy them and wear them for a while to realize that. I'm not talking about 'the experience' of owning a gen, but wether I actually like the product enough to want to buy it in the first place...

This is a complex point to discuss, perhaps you like the 1680 dial not because of the design but because of the associated heritage of the original piece itself, branding, marketing and all!

It's really not a complex point at all, as the boldened text is pure supposition on your part. Until I joined the forum, I did not know anything about different models of Subs, so my appreciation for the 1680 dial, and preference for it over the modern dials, is a purely aesthetic consideration, (acquired since after joining the forum) with nothing to do with the above points

You'd really have seen a normal £5 watch at a market with big tritium maxi dots and thought 'that is the one'?

I'm not too sure what you mean... I likely would not have thought "Is this X model Sub?" but I would likely have thought "That's a nice watch..." and picked one up As before, if you can point me in the direction of a sterile 1680 dial within reasonable budgetary limits, then please share the link, as I would be most interested in checking it out

Come on now.. and you knew of its tactile quality from pictures? I'm not convinced, you're kidding yourself here if you think you bought this bag for its quality alone and that the LV design its plastered with didnt come into the equation. Cheaper high quality bags could be bought all over the place, and I know they can. We live in the same country!

Please don't tell me I'm kidding myself, it's rather patronising, and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything about my opinion. I'm simply stating what it is, people are free to accept it or not, but please don't tell me that I don't know my own mind Yes, cheaper high quality bags might well be available elsewhere, but, having purchased from KB previously, I knew the items he carries were of a high quality, and as I was looking to make a long-term investment in a new bag (I am expecting at least a decade's use out of it before it starts falling apart on me) I was willing to believe that the quality of this bag would be as high as the previous goods, and make the sale Just to bring it back onto the topic of the conversation, I carry the bag in public, and have never once given any thought to if anyone notices the branding on it, nor been concerned that someone might 'call me out' over it I also have a £3 rucksack (actually built as a laptop bag) which I also use frequently, and have had a shorter time than the LV messenger. So far, one zip toggle has snapped, the other toggle is on the verge of snapping, and the overall construction of the bag is much less sturdy. Sure, it suffices for the purposes I use it for, but, at the end of the day, the difference in quality of the respective products does match the difference in the prices paid for them. Now, wether I'd think the messenger was actually worth LV's suggested retail price, is another kettle of fish entirely

And I disagree here, conformity would assume a majoritys persuation on an individual. A majority of people dont own a Rolex. This is not called conformity but aspiration. Aspiration that is a result of marketing which can be rejected freely by anyone!

I agree, a majority might not own a Rolex, but, a majority of people are aware of the brand enough, that if someone was to say "Do you want a Rolex?" and offer them one, chances are they would be very impressed with such a generous gift. Yes, the aspiration to own an item created by marketing can indeed by freely rejected by anyone, but, as the old saying goes, "peerpressure's a motherfucker..." People might, in the grand scheme of things, be free to choose, but in the real world, it's not always so easy to do when the people you work with, or family and friends all wear X product and say it's awesome... As before, Rolex created the desire through marketing, and they are the ones who control the price at retail (which while many may aspire to, not everyone can afford) so in that regards, they are the victims of their own success, in creating a relatively unattainable goal, which left the gap open for rep manufacturers to step into, by providing said product at a considerably cheaper price. Okay, sure, I know that a rep might not equal a gen in terms of manufacturing, but, as far as JoeSixPack is concerned, the dial on their wrist says 'Rolex', so that's all they care about, so in that regard, a watch is a watch, regardless of if it's gen or rep, and chances are, they'll get just as much pleasure out of it.

As before, don't think I'm resentful of gens, as I'm not. To be honest, I just find them boring in their perfection, unless it is a particularly rare model, which I then find interesting in terms of that rarity, but, that doesn't mean I resent them, dislike them, or those who buy them. As I said, it's the 'luxury industry' itself which bugs me, as it exists solely to create 'false idols', and overcharges people for products which could, in all honesty, be purchased for much less, were it not for corporate greed

[Edit to add]

I think it's funny that the items you mention, my watch and messenger bag, are (with the exclusion of my lost Daytona and a few dry Mont Blanc pens) the only 'prestige branded' goods I own. My entire wardrobe comes from Tesco, and on occasion Matalan (I actually had a pair of shoes from Matalan re-heeled because I liked them so much) and I tend to drink generic cola rather than Pepsi, so the things you mentioned, rather than 'proving a point', are actually 'the exceptions to the rule', (and even then not truly exceptions, as I did not purchase them for the associated prestige of the logos)when it comes to my possessions

PS I just remembered that I have an iPhone, it never even occurred to me to add it to my list of 'prestige possessions' as I consider it such a practical and widely-used tool, also, given their availability, while I accept that they are nicer, and more expensive than some basic mobile phones, I would not class them as 'luxury items' due to their relatively easy availability

O and if you don't care about the brand and just like the design. here is a great new submariner

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/SUBMARINER-STEEL-AUTOMATIC-MEN-WATCH-GERMAN_W0QQitemZ230369304165QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Watches?hash=item35a3149e65&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Awesome watch, but sadly (for me, at least) it's a modern style, so not really what I like in a Sub dial...

Thanks for the link though, it might well make a good parts donor

[capice]

TeeJay we meet again

I agree about the moral issues, it was just an eye opener for me and something i had never really associated with the rep watch industry ( kids losing arms etc... pulled at my heart strings i guess)

That is why i never wore the reps out of the house, i didnt want questions etc... I think a large portion of people with reps would pass them off and are using them as quasi status symbols or status builders.

Each to their own and i still will enjoy reading the rep forums etc...

I would also be interested in this article as I wear my reps jus as Lanikai..to fit the ocassion. Like choosing my clothes in the morning, I choose arep accordingly.

I have heared frightning stories about childlabour in India in the "normal" clothes" industry for the major brands..................is it true? Don't you think the whole world would opposive and not wearing the brand involved?

As for the repmanufacturers, I honestly don't believe they have kids working for them unless i see it for myself, I think most of it is a highly organized industry where a lot of people make a living, without i they would have no food n the table.

Where there is poverty, everybody is invoved in making money to put some food on the table, see the rural plains in some asian countries, man and wife,kids and elderly work in order to provide the first needs.

[kramerica2]

You've started a great topic.

Until not long ago, I really didn't pay any attention to what I was wearing and when. I took the one I want in the morning and that's it. But then, at a business meeting, I got called out in a very rude way:

While it ended in a very good way, It got me thinking and I became much more aware to what I was wearing. I've decided that when going on meetings with people that I don't know and don't know me, I'd only wear the less known brands (less known to the general public of-course). Around here Rolex (obviously), Omega and Breitling are very known brands, and it's quite common to run into someone with a gen of those brands, So, I'll wear a IWC or Ebel for example. The odds of running into someone that even knows those brands are quite slim, and I never met anybody that wears them.

[TeeJay]

Whoops, double post...

[NORing]

I do not take any considerations when wearing my reps. There are no strict laws around owning reps for personal use in Norway and hence I feel no stress wearing any of them. I wear my TAG Aquaracer when working on the drillfloor offshore, I wear my PAM's, IWC's and Breitlings at home. All of my reps are "high-end" reps and I have never been called out or confronted by anyone (Except friends, haha.)

I have sported my watches in AD's and feel I have no reason not to. There are no big history of watchmakers in Norway and I do not feel I have to prove anything to anyone. I feel the biggest honour in the world would be having a product that others would go through a lot to replicate. When I travel I only wear my highly modded PAM 111 or the IWC Coustau, as I know it will be hasslefree.

I love the art of movements and like the brands I own replicas of. I just don't feel they are worth the money they are asking for at this time of my life. When It comes to how they are made and what that is doing to the world. If I were to feel something about how all the crap I consume during my life affects the world, then I would have to move to a small farm in the mountains and isolate my self from everyone else. Growing my own food and living in harmony with nature.

I care about the people around me and help as often as I can. If everyone did that instead talking about helping people, the world would probably be pretty fair and ok.

[Brightight]

I think what is forgotten on the moral front, is that buying reps, and in fact any Chinese made goods, is providing people with income and their families with food. Their income may be pitiful in Western terms but compared with local rates, I should imagine it is reasonable or they wouldn't do it. If their rates were increased, the goods would become more expensive, and people would not buy them. So which is better? It is all very well getting on high horses but beware the higher, the easier to fall off.

Many years ago I lived in Africa and employed a Cook/House servant. People in the UK could not understand this, first the work was demeaning (why?) and the salary was pitiful. However, in local terms the salary was good, comparable with a clerk, shop worker, etc, the perks were more than good, housing, electricity, water, food, etc, and the hours were more than reasonable and the work not hard. It provided employment, he paid his taxes (well I did!) and money was put into the local economy. Most importantly, he enjoyed his job and I consider I was a good employer. If his salary had been say double what we paid, he would have priced himself out of a job, and my wife and I would have handled his tasks ourselves. Was I exploiting him? I hardly think so.

As to wearing a rep in public, why not? I have never been called out, rather the opposite in fact, when a gen collector admired my Pam 113 knowing what Panerai was (though of course he had no idea of the finer points). If someone other than a friend is rude enough to ask if the watch is real, I usually ask them to look at the sweep of the second hand and draw their own conclusions. Friends I tell, and like the poster above said they are blown away by the quality.

[mastrmindalliance]

I also recently read about cartel involvement in the manufacture of replica handbags, shoes and watches and the human rights issues that go along with them. Children forced to work, mothers, daughters and older people forced to work for little pay and punishment. The rep industry supports some of the most violent and ruthless criminals in the world and all for what? so we can feel a bit better about ourselves wearing a "faux" rolex or whatever the brand? It is plain selfish and a movement i do not want to be part of anymore.

Got a link?

[chronos666]

Each to their own. It is one of my reasons for not wearing them and subsequently selling them

But you are ok with selling them , even though they have blood on them from kids with one arm? Just curious.

[Toadtorrent]

If you really wanted to, you could get into the whole morality of a variety of industries...not just reps.

Car industry - is it better to make a platform/chassis safer, or does actuarial analysis deem that dealing with the rare lawsuit from known negligence to be more economical than re-tooling an entire line?

Tobacco industry - how many years did tobacco industries know about ill side effects, addictive nature, etc of smoking and felt cover-ups and rare lawsuits to be economical in comparison to shutting the industry down?

Overseas Manufacturing - How many companies, large brand names have had their goods made in poor conditions, exploiting environmental and lack of labours in various countries in order to make huge profits, such that years later, they can now "afford" to be environmentally and ethically sound?

Robber Barons??

etc, etc...

You can go on and on. True, there is an illegal, morally questionable nature to reps...just as there is for a lot of everyday, accepted goods if you really look at the history of either the industry or the people behind the industry.

Either way...I enter buying reps with my eyes open. I like the watches. I like the designs. I wear them in public the same as I wear my gens. If asked, I tell truthfully when their reps...unless the person is an idiot. Some of the attraction I will admit, is due to the allure of various brands or history (personal or other) that the brand holds or that I've had with them.

[maxman]

If you really wanted to, you could get into the whole morality of a variety of industries...not just reps.

Car industry - is it better to make a platform/chassis safer, or does actuarial analysis deem that dealing with the rare lawsuit from known negligence to be more economical than re-tooling an entire line?

Tobacco industry - how many years did tobacco industries know about ill side effects, addictive nature, etc of smoking and felt cover-ups and rare lawsuits to be economical in comparison to shutting the industry down?

Overseas Manufacturing - How many companies, large brand names have had their goods made in poor conditions, exploiting environmental and lack of labours in various countries in order to make huge profits, such that years later, they can now "afford" to be environmentally and ethically sound?

Robber Barons??

etc, etc...

You can go on and on. True, there is an illegal, morally questionable nature to reps...just as there is for a lot of everyday, accepted goods if you really look at the history of either the industry or the people behind the industry.

Either way...I enter buying reps with my eyes open. I like the watches. I like the designs. I wear them in public the same as I wear my gens. If asked, I tell truthfully when their reps...unless the person is an idiot. Some of the attraction I will admit, is due to the allure of various brands or history (personal or other) that the brand holds or that I've had with them.

+1 Toad, well said

[Toadtorrent]

...and besides, you gotta wear them for at least a little bit to know whether or not your first attempts at horology, mods, repairs, etc are completely botched, or if all your swearing, sweating, and squinting through a loupe and begging for help from mates at RWG were worth it, bringing beautiful things into your life for you and your loved ones, bringing your family closer together, giving you the motivation to change the world...well maybe that's gone too far.

I also wear them in public as my 4 year old son likes to pick the watches I wear as part of the morning routine. This is one of his favourite storybook characters (note the number of watches he wears...he has the same on each hand...and I usually get encouraged to do the same):

[TeeJay]

...and besides, you gotta wear them for at least a little bit to know whether or not your first attempts at horology, mods, repairs, etc are completely botched, or if all your swearing, sweating, and squinting through a loupe and begging for help from mates at RWG were worth it, bringing beautiful things into your life for you and your loved ones, bringing your family closer together, giving you the motivation to change the world...well maybe that's gone too far.

I also wear them in public as my 4 year old son likes to pick the watches I wear as part of the morning routine. This is one of his favourite storybook characters (note the number of watches he wears...he has the same on each hand...and I usually get encouraged to do the same):

They kind of look a bit like PAMs

[Toadtorrent]

They kind of look a bit like PAMs

HAH HAH. My son pulled out his little tape measure and was measuring my 239 saying "yup...it's huge". In the end he picked my IWC Spitfire with a black moo-croc deployment.

[maxman]

They kind of look a bit like PAMs

I think your right TeeJay, the one closest to the elbow Is a 250 If Im not mistaken

[Toadtorrent]

I think your right TeeJay, the one closest to the elbow Is a 250 If Im not mistaken

Noob. No chrono. No running seconds. It's on the right hand.

It's a 219 Destro.

@RDubya - Sorry for the thread hijack. It seemed like a good time to lighten things up again...

[jdkno]

I had to giggle abit when I read this, and it's meant as no offense.. but are you actually suggesting 65-70% of Americans are middle class? In an ideal world this is how it would be, and actually its this type of distribution that Obama talks about constantly. 'Spreading the wealth' as it were, to get that kind of figure.

As it stands however, that is highly inaccurate.

Not to get too far off the original topic but the 65%-70% figure is pretty accurate. While at face value the percentages are off, if you take into account the subsidised rent, utilities,food,child care and free health care a person making $20K with govt. help probably has the same disposable income as someone making $40K. Obama's "Spread the Wealth" is more like get rewarded for doing less.

Back to the topic at hand, I am with Lani prudent planning and wise selection are the best bet here. 90% of people you come into contact with daily will never even pay attention to your watch, of the 10% that do the chances of them calling you out are pretty slim. I would not however buy a rep of a gen that I could not afford. For an extreme example if you work at starbucks don't buy a rep of a watch that cost more than you make in a year. If you are going to meet with someone you work for don't wear something that will make them think you are over charging.

[TeeJay]

HAH HAH. My son pulled out his little tape measure and was measuring my 239 saying "yup...it's huge". In the end he picked my IWC Spitfire with a black moo-croc deployment.

I think your right TeeJay, the one closest to the elbow Is a 250 If Im not mistaken

I was thinking 127 myself

[maxman]

I was thinking 127 myself

A 217, I do beleive your right TeeJay. It also looks to be on a SC strap

[andreww]

Are reps produced in sweatshops that pay their employees next to nothing? Probably so. But in all likelihood, so is every piece of clothing or pair of shoes that you buy in the local mall. And when you think about it, the mark up on reps is far more reasonable than that of Hollisters or Nike. You also have to remember that those under paid employees may be able to put some food on the table with what little they make. Obviously, if they had any more lucrative alternatives they would take them. So, I feel no guilt on that aspect.

As to the original poster's question. I will always wear my reps in public, as I am honest about what they are. It is only when you try to perpetuate a lie, that you have to worry about the perceived value of a watch. Because I am honest about my reps, I have no problem wearing a watch that may have a perceived value of tens, or hundred of thousands of dollars.