Movement review - Seagull ETA copy, how to spot this one

[RWG Technical]

First up, a big THANK You to member Toad for sending me this movement for teardown and review.

So what are we reviewing?

This is a Seagull factory fresh sealed movement that is somewhat a copy of the ETA 2824-2. I say somewhat a copy because although at first glance it looks like the ETA, a closer inspection reveals that this is where the similarity ends.

If you read and follow the complete post, you will be qualified to identify this movement easily and pick it out as a Fake ETA...so grab a drink, and read along...

So first up, lets put the movement on the timing machine and see how well it is adjusted and runs fresh from the factory.

You can see the trace shows 4 sets of lines angled to the right, the 4 sets indicates that the Beat is not adjusted correctly (the neutral position of the balance wheel) and the fact that the trace is running to the right indicates that the movement is running fast, about 14 seconds a day fast.

So lets start tearing the movement down, and see what it looks like.

Check out the balance jewel setting, note this is your first identifier that this isn't an ETA movement.

Autowinder plate removed.

More disassembly pics.

Our first close up inspection, the only way to tell if a movement is serviced, and if serviced and oiled correctly, is to have a look at the jewels, look at these jewels, not very well oiled.

This is the jewel for the mainspring arbor, the one with the highest tension and friction in the whole movement, it is completely dry...

So the jewels are not well oiled, but why are these two wheels stuck together...

Oiling is very critical, there shouldn't be any oil except for in the jewels for the pivots, there should never be any oil anywhere near any of the wheel teeth. Notice the "oil impressions" of the gear teeth on this wheel, there is enough oil on this one gear to lubricate the complete movement, very poor quality control.

Another dry jewel, this one is for the second most under tension wheel in the movement, it should be well lubricated.

This is the top of the mainspring arbor, it has a small amount of oil, although not enough, at least it's some protection against wear.

Mainspring barrel is completly dry, except for this black gunk here and there around the edge.

A lack of cleanliness on the most important part of the movement, the pallet arm and jewels.

Top half of the cap jewel for the balance, it looks correctly oiled, the bottom jewel didn't do as well, it was completely dry.

Looks like they copied the cutouts in the datewheel spring cover, but neglected to make them functional. The cutouts only serve one purpose, they allow datewheels to be changed without any disassembly. This is your second identifier that it isn't an ETA.

Balance spring is nice and flat and true and the rings are concentric.

The mainspring is about 75% of the length of the ETA one, but it is quite noticeably stiffer. A quick check with the calipers shows that the ETA mainspring is 0.11mm thick, but the Seagull one is 0.13mm thick. Since both movements run at the same speed, 28,800 beats per hour, a shorter mainspring must be thicker, in order to maintain the same amount of power. Shorter is also equal to less run time...note how it fills less of the barrel than the ETA.

Another clue that this isn't an ETA, check out the alignmnent pin, on the ETA, the mainplate is drilled for the pins which are located on all of the bridges. On the Seagull, it's a bit of each, a bridge will have a pin on it, as well as a hole for a pin on the mainplate. By comparison the Sellita copy of this ETA has all the pins on the mainplate with all the bridges drilled. What does it mean? NO interchageability...

SEAGULL, the pin is part of the mainplate, the bridge has a hole cut into it for the pin. If you see a pin sticking up through a bridge, it's NOT an ETA. This is your third identifier that it isn't an ETA.

ETA, all the pins are part of the bridges, the mainplate has all the holes, you will NOT see any pins sticking up on any genuine ETA.

Do you remember the odd looking part on this jewel as we took it apart, well now that it's clean we can see exactly the problem, the jewel is broken. I removed the broken jewel, and replaced it with an ETA one, it fit fine and was interchangeable.

Old broken jewel next to the new one.

So after fixing the jewel, and re-assembling the movement, oiling it correctly, I place it on the timer again, to see how it's running.

I haven't made any adjustments, I want to see how it runs after simply servicing it correctly.

Remember the BEFORE Servicing readout.

Here's the after Servicing readout, before I make any adjustments to the Beat or Rate. You can see that the rate has increased and that the beat is much closer.

Do you see how the trace is closer together, that means that the beat is closer to being where it should be.

Do you also note that the angle has moved much more towards the right, in fact the movement has gone from +14 seconds per day fast, to an amazing +30 second per day fast.

Here are the printouts as the beat and rate are adjusted.

And once it's adjusted, the readout shows two lines close together, which means that the beat is correctly adjusted. The rate has been adjusted to +6 seconds per day, which is normal, anywhere from 6-8 seconds per day fast is a good adjustment.

Conclusions.

What I find very interesting, is that I have seen this movement many times before. In fact, almost all of these movements I have seen in the past, were stamped as "ETA" with the caliber number under the balance wheel. Some of the ETA stampings were very well done and virtually identical to the ETA ones, and some of the stampings are not very well done and easily picked up as fake. Now with the information and pictures you now have at your disposal, and along with the other signs I noted above, you will be able to easily spot this movement impersonating an ETA - when in fact it's a Seagull.

Thanks for reading, I hope you find something useful in this post, and a big thanks to Toad for his generosity.

[bwhitesox]

As always Zig another very informative and well photographed (wow) review.

Thanks for taking the time to do this for the community.

[lanikai]

Mahalo Zig.. and Toad..

I need to go over this a couple more times.. but for a member like myself who is not tuned to the practicum aspect of working on movements.. invaluable info again..

and in part answered my thought's on my Doxa Divestar.. taking off the case back I noticed enough oil for what seems now like a dozen movements or more.. obviously someone just dowsed the top of the movement with oil..

Remembering your tutorial on "gear teeth".. are these different from the genuine eta's gear teeth.. and some shaped like the "ninga stars" .. (sorry, that is the only description I know of) ???? or do they closely match the genuine eta's gear teeth ??

I guess the easiest for me to define would be the pins you mentioned..

just the 'servicing aspect equates to tuning and engine.. be it a Porsche or a Ford...

Thank you again Ziggy and Toad for the contribution to this thread..

Good Shtuff..

AC/Lani

[jnkay]

I thought that Seagulls were legit movements?

[Shundi]

THANK YOU ZIG AND TOAD! Finally - a true, correct way to spot a fake ETA!!

[dluddy]

awesome review Zig. Thanks for taking the amount of time I know it took to document this for the membership

[krpster]

Fantastic. Thanks for taking the time to post that up. Now I have to go grab a detailed look at my "ETA" movement to see if it passes the test.

Cheers!

[freddy333]

Excellent review & info, Ziggy. I am a bit surprised to see such a mess coming from Seagull since alot of vintage Daytona reps have Seagull movements, which have proven to be not only bulletproof & reliable but with a silky smooth feel to them.

[FxrAndy]

Great post Ziggy, brill clear photos, just one question, as above from freddy, how do we know where this movement came from, seagull do have a good reputation but as far as i know there about 3 factory's making these in china, I have seen a photo with all three somewhere i will dig it out.

[specialvat]

Quality information, thank you for documenting it so well.

[RWG Technical]

@ jnkay

Seagull movements are legit, but not when they are stamped with "ETA" on them.

@ freddy

You and me both surprised. The Venus 175 copy that has been around for ages is well produced, clean, oiled, and never breaks down, so I am not sure what went wrong with this one, especially the broken jewel...

@ Andy

We know it is a Seagull because it was ordered directly from the Seagull Factory and supplied by them.

@ lanikai

The gear teeth seem ok, Seagull is no crappy manufacturer, I just don't understand the problems noted on this particular movement, consider as well that Seagull is a high end factory, they have a Tourbillon that retails for almost $100K

[hackR]

so glad i hunkered down and read this with coffee instead of alcohol...

excellent and very informative, Zig!...

appreciate the time and effort to enlighten the community!...

@Toad --> cool gesture...nice!...

R-

[maxman]

Well here we go again, another excellent post from one of are most respected members. Thank you so much Zig, this Information Is Invaluable. Also a big THANK YOU to Toad for his generous contribution. Mike

[chiman12]

Excellent write up Zig!

[fijikid]

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

That was fun. Thanks for the effort, Zig. Since I pulled apart my DG2813, this stuff has become so much more meaningful and interesting.

[Guest techlogik]

I guess Zigmeister knows what he is talking about...if it weren't for the photos..I would be suspicious of this whole thing.

[gioarmani]

Nicely done, as usual.

[Demsey]

RG,

I'll leave the 'tech talk' to the WIS and just mention, as it means more to me than 'watches'; your technical writing, in terms of the rhetorical, has evolved to a great place.

I've never missed a tech post of yours since the first Asian 7750 expose`. Although the info was 100% all there, as a neophyte, I had to read that particular post quite a few times to correlate the info to the 'understood' past the technical. This post however? I 'got it' first run through. The proof is in the fact I have no real working knowledge of the subject, just a cursory fascination, but I could now hold a quite complete discussion on the subject. That is the power of the craft. WIS can wax technical all day long and communicate. A 'teacher' can bring the ignorant up to speed in short order. You're on it.

I know that English is not your first language, and as an American it's not mine either, but this is great writing. In any tongue. Thanks for the effort(s).

[coolfire]

Thanks to Zig for yet another excellent & top, top review! And thanks to Toad as well...

Nice one on the notches of the shock setting...& the shorter/thicker mainspring on the Seagull. I had this exact movement (complete with nice ETA stampings & all) in my SOSF. Even the date fonts of the datewheel in this review look like the ones on mine too...

[RWG Technical]

@ Dems

Thanks so much for the kind words, I really appreciate it, and coming from you it does mean a lot to me. Nice to know that the writing style and layout allows me to accomplish my goal, KISS, and get the message across with one read so that members are informed and able to increase their knowledge and understanding.

@ Coolfire

Glad to know that you spotted the same things I did, these movements are out there, more than we imagine...

[chubbchubb]

Thanks Zig. Great post as usual.

[jmb]

Fantastic post! I love reading about stuff like this!

[P4GTR]

I love reading these Zig, thanks as always.

Heres some reference shots of my "Perfect" sub from Josh back in the day. This has ETA which has been called seagull movement before by people suspecting it was this movement you reviewed. Judging by the pics I have laying around, you've confirmed gen.

looks like I have 3 spring removal notches.

No pin sticking up through the bridge.

ETA markings, unfortunately you cannot see very well. 2836-2.

[RWG Technical]

Yes indeed, that one is a Genuine ETA.

You can clearly see the three notches for the KIF shock spring, as well the alignment pins I showed are not only on the bridge next to the stem, but you will see them sticking up on the other bridges as well. Your pictures clearly show that no pins are visible, so it's an ETA.

Thanks for this, it helps bring it all together for everyone. After editing 29 pics, and spending 3 hours getting it written, I ran out of steam and didn't have time to document any more.

Thanks again.

[P4GTR]

Yes indeed, that one is a Genuine ETA.

You can clearly see the three notches for the KIF shock spring, as well the alignment pins I showed are not only on the bridge next to the stem, but you will see them sticking up on the other bridges as well. Your pictures clearly show that no pins are visible, so it's an ETA.

Thanks for this, it helps bring it all together for everyone. After editing 29 pics, and spending 3 hours getting it written, I ran out of steam and didn't have time to document any more.

Thanks again.

No way my man, you're the one that should be thanked. You taking the time posting this laid to bed something I'd been wondering for a long time. Not to mention it was a fun read, I love stuff like this. Anyhow, I was pleasantly surprised that it was Gen.

Glad to share a few pics to help you guys see the difference between the two, sorry they aren't as good as Z-mans.