A Bezel Aging Science Experiment / Science Lesson

[redwatch]

There's been a lot of posts about how to age a new bezel insert to replicate the look of a well used, 60's to 70's diver watch. Bleach and baking methods have been tried over and over to varying degrees of results. There's been theories and guesses as to what the best method would be to age an insert. I have my own theory that I'd like to share with you all and see what you think.

The Hypothesis

First off, lets look at the reasons why a bezel insert ages and fades.

If the dive watch is used for its intended purpose, it's seen lots of exposure to the ocean. Seawater has, well obviously, salt in it. In fact it's salinity is about 3.5%, which means for every litre of water, there is about 35 grams of dissolved salts, or sodium chloride. By mass, seawater is composed of approximately 85.84% Oxygen, 10.82% Hydrogen, 1.94% Chlorine, 1.08% Sodium, and very miniscule amounts of Magnesium, Sulphur, Calcium, Potassium, Bromine & Carbon. It is this combination of elements that contribute to the discoloring and fading of the paint used on the bezel.

Another contributing factor to the discoloration and fading of the bezel insert is Ultra Violet Degradation. Many polymers, pigments and dyes are affected by exposure to UV light. Absorbtion of Ultra Violet radiation can cause degradation and loss of strength in sensitive points in the molecular structure. The degredation manifests itself as loss of pigmentation (or fading) in the bezel insert giving it a nice, aged look.

If we look at these two factors, add heat from the sun, and expose the watch to many, many years of diving, we get a perfect combination for an aged bezel insert.

The constant motion of the watch through the seawater must have a somewhat abrasive affect on the bezel insert. Additionally, if we look at the fact that there must be a considerable amount of sand in the water, it must be like taking a very mild piece of sand paper to the bezel each time we move our arm through the water while wearing the watch.

The Experiment

So, the question always remains, how can we achieve the look of an aged bezel insert, without exposing it to 20+ years of seawater and ultra violet light? My theory is, in order to speed up the process, to use some lab equipment, and some trial and error.

First off, I propose to use a heated, reciprocal shaking water bath. This device is basically a water bath with heat and the resevoir shakes lightly or vigorously. I have found several of these devices on the bay for quite a variety of prices, but one can be had for about $100 - $200 USD. The one I am looking at looks something like this:

So, we take the heated shaking water bath, and add seawater to it. Then, because there's usually quite a bit of sand around when diving, add some amount of beach sand. The water bath can be heated up to nearly boiling, and is digitally controlled, so we can try several different temperatures, different shaking speeds, and amount of time exposed.

We grab a UV light used for plant growth, and drop a few bezel's in the container and see what happens. Obviously this will be a long process with a lot of trial and error, but I wanted to propose the idea to the community to see if I am even close to being on the right track.

Please let me know your thoughts and any input from the masses would be greatly appreciated!!!

[offshore]

An interesting hypothesis!

Unfortunately (IMHO) not all that accurate.

First, I don't see a lot of sand flying around in the dive environment....not at the level that you would have anyway.

So I'd basically ditch the abrasive side of the experiment.

Next, those bezels which have shown that wonderful aging effect you are chasing, are in the main of the vintage variety. My guess is that techniques used in manufacture today, vary widely from what was the norm 20+ years ago.

So unless you can find some NOS bezels, you may well be attempting to "vintagise" something which will resist that very idea, through modern manufacturing methods. I am speaking specifically of coatings here...we would need to know what we were starting from, before we could apply such an experiment.

I do believe the UV light has more than some merit, as this I believe is where a greater % of aging occurs. If there is a way to speed up this process, then it would have, IMO, probably the greatest single affect.

Red, I am just playing Devils Advocate here....lets get some more brains in on this....I truly commend the concept, and idea, and the passion behind it, however I think it requires a solid think through, and much input from many, so that eventually a positive result may be achieved.

Offshore

[Ronin]

I would have to agree with OS about the "sand" as an abrasive. I would think a long sleeve shirt continually being pulled over the watch would have a more substantial effect. The other good point was about the materials used 20+ years ago. Hmmmm....

This takes us back to possibly using a 1200+ grit sandpaper and a Clorox (bleach) bath.

I do believe UV is the key. Case in point, I gave my father a Vostok Amphibian about 4 years ago. He lives in a desert climate and about 3000 ft above sea-level. The watch had a dark Navy Blue dial. After just 2 years of exposure to the sun out there the dial turned "Tropic Brown"!!! No water involved, just sunlight. Now, given the "Russian Quality" they are probably making these 1968 style watches like they did 40+ years ago. This lends more support to the mfg. methods, and simple UV.

Perhaps instead of the water bath, we need to find some super high concentrated UV sources, or not sure if Laser light would work.

[redwatch]

Interesting points guys! I didn't even think of the differences in manufacturing processes from 20 years ago. See, this is why I posted this here. Gotta get the brains of RWG in on this!

Maybe I overstated my idea about the sand. You have to think that an avid diver is possibly an ocean swimmer as well. Spends time on the beach, or maybe surfs as well? Not really sure, as I am not a diver, so I can't think like one. I don't know why, but something in my gut is telling me that the sand in a moving water bath is the key to this for some reason. (I get very strange, instinctual ideas sometimes - often times turn out correct for some reason) I'm not saying a lot of sand, just a teaspoon or so per liter of water. I mean, why not? Many folks have taking 1200 grit sand paper to their bezels, so they are using some form of mild abrasive right?

Additionally, one component of the seawater, as I stated earlier, is chlorine (the other part of the salt). As we have seen in many experiments posted here, a very small amount of chlorine has had a somewhat positive affect on the bezel aging process.

I guess my main question is, do you guys think that it would be worth trying this with the water bath? Or am I just throwing away $150 USD?

Lets get some more thoughts here guys!! Keep 'em coming!

[redwatch]

One other thing I wanted to point out. I am trying to come up with a repeatable way to age an insert to get the same results each time. I think that the time, money and effort invested now, will pay off in the long run being able to age inserts consistently each time. (And no, I am not looking to start a side business here - just trying to satisfy my own curiosity.)

[lanikai]

Immersing it in Salt water would take a very, very long time to produce result.. the reason I say this is H2O has a certain amount of oxygen, but not enough to oxidize the insert to the point of discoloration, you may throw some "oxyclean" in the solution to see what results you obtain.. that may accelerate the fading of the insert...I'm going to try that on a insert .. after I "kick" start it with Clorox...

the aim is to get the insert to fade as it would in a time span of 20 years.. that in and of itself may be hit and miss with each insert, as I have found that some are doable and others are uneven in the colour once you fade them. (wolesaleoutlet) selss "greay" bezels that are supposed to resemble the vintage look... I need to get a sample and see what it looks like.

this is my results > Here

the sun is the final stage and it is still fading on my car dash..

[freddy333]

Red, I think your idea is brilliant, but I have to agree with Offshore regarding nixing the sand & the issues relating to the 60s materials/methods of manufacture vs those used today. The base material of vintage Rolex inserts just does not equate with what is used today, especially with cheap rep parts.

After trying various aging methods myself (including extended UV exposure within a salt bath using a UV lamp made for setting UV cement), I came to the conclusion that the only way to get a realistically aged Rolex insert is to get a Rolex insert that has naturally aged. Hands, dials & cases can be made to look old with enhanced patination, but I have yet to see a single Rolex insert that looks naturally aged by unnatural methods. That said, I will be following your work with great interest.

[redwatch]

Thanks for the input Freddy. Out of curiosity, do you happen to know the intensity of the UV Lamp you used? What the wattage was and the wavelength? I only ask because I found a High Intensity Long Wave UV lamp with 100 watt bulbs and want to see if that is similar to the one you already tried.

I think that the "trick" to this is possibly going to be the moving water bath. Many people have tried salt water, but was it ever agitated over long periods of time? I think that its years of moving through the salt water that helps it age, along with the UV exposure from the sun. Of course, as everyone has pointed out, the materials used to make the bezels 20 years ago are definitely different from what is used today.

Does anyone know the process used to make the old inserts? I would imagine the new inserts are anodized some how, but I could be totally wrong on that. Thoughts?

[offshore]

Red,

I suppose you could view the bath as resaleable after your experiment, if it didn't produce results.

And if it did work, it would be worth keeping.

And obviously you would be experimenting with various bezels, solutions, time, and UV exposure.

Having never seen one of those baths, do you know if it has seperate areas? Or can be made to have many areas where different formulas could be tested? I am thinking here even of a series of jars suspended in the one bath, although that may remove the wave action factor. Not akin to putting a jar in an ultrasonic....which also brings to mind the idea of using the cleaning action of an ultrasonic, combined with some formulation to achieve a result.

You could then be testing your sand in solution concept at various percentages of solution.(and with other chemicals)

I do think you are however going to need a large quantity of bezel inserts.

Now I can maybe assist there. One of my suppliers has a large range of bezel inserts. They are not good enough in font etc for our little hobby, however they may be OK to test various solutions(assuming a similar manufacturing method is used by all manufacturers.....It would be terrible to find something that worked, but then it only worked on shite bezels!!!) I also have maybe 20 various inserts here I would donate...again the quality varies...but if something worked on one, hopefully it will on another)

BTW I do think that Lani may be heading in the right direction with Chlorox and Oxyclean...I have used Oxyclean (or an Oz equivalent for cleaning dentures) to clean dials. Works very well on older natural dials, not so well on some of the paper transfer dials of today...they disintergrate!

I do think you will somehow be able to run multiple testing with various solutions....maybe worth having a play with an ultrasonic 1st, as you could run a series of tests in one of those. ( And you probably will need a commercial version with heating, and one which will hack long running times.) I will PM you about this.

Offshore

[freddy333]

Thanks for the input Freddy. Out of curiosity, do you happen to know the intensity of the UV Lamp you used? What the wattage was and the wavelength? I only ask because I found a High Intensity Long Wave UV lamp with 100 watt bulbs and want to see if that is similar to the one you already tried.

Here is the link

[redwatch]

@ Freddy - That's an interesting unit. It's the same wavelength as the one I was looking at, but the bulbs are 100W as opposed to the 36W total output of the unit you were trying out. I wonder if the higher wattage would have any sort of impact to its effectiveness?

@ O/S - I had also considered an ultrasonic bath as well. The higher sonic waves may expedite the aging process, or it will just clean off the bezel completely. I guess it's hard to say really without a few test runs.

The unit I am looking into is made by Gemini Labs and it has two separate basins. Each one has its own independent heater controls, but the whole thing shakes at the same rate. Each chamber is 13.3" x 9.5" and 2.3" deep, and they are designed to hold separate containers as well. The nice thing is that the temperature of each separate chamber is digitally controlled and is very accurate (from what I've read). It also has variable speed control for the shaker platter so we can experiment with different speeds to see if they produce different results.

Some donor bezels would be superb for this. I don't mind spending some money on this, but it's going to take a lot of bezels to get this experiment in motion.

[offshore]

The unit I am looking into is made by Gemini Labs and it has two separate basins.

Got a link?

O/S

[redwatch]

Some info can be found here

[redwatch]

Anyone else care to offer their 0.02? I could really use some more input on this. Thanks folks!

[TeeJay]

Being a Libra, I'm totally caught on the fence on this one... On the one hand, I have to agree with Freddy that the differences in construction techniques/materials could well play a part in how a modern bezel can be faded compared to an old bezel fading in time, but on the other hand, the modder in me would be fascinated to know if it actually would work, as from a scientific perspective, it is covering all the bases

[redwatch]

I agree TJ. I'm definitely on the fence with this one too. I hear everyone's comments and I mostly agree with them. However, the draw to the experiment is getting stronger by the day! I'm just dying to know if it would work or not. I just don't want to throw the money away. However, that being said, if it didn't work out, I could always re-sell the water bath on the bay and maybe not even take a loss with it. I found a dual chamber water bath for $149 on the bay and a 100W High Intensity Long Wave Length UV Lamp for $179. Not necessarily a bad investment if it actually worked!

[valerian]

Sir Hamfist chiming in.

I'm not too gifted in these fields but it seems to me there is need for some more research beforebuying one of those fancy mini beach machines.

Question: Are you certain that those wonderfully aged bezel inserts were regularly in Salt water? I ask because I believe that 95 percent of Rolex Diving watches are never taken diving.

Kind regards

Val.

[redwatch]

Also a good point Val! I guess that's why I am posing the question here.

So what do others think?? What is the real cause of the vintage divers watch bezels fading so nicely? Any thoughts?

[freddy333]

As with most things that fade, most likely sun exposure. But frequent exposure (in the sun) to chlorine probably accelerates the process.

[Brightight]

Is the cause of fading not bleaching due to the sun/UV combined with oxidation? Certainly I've always found it to be the case and I have lived in hot and cold countries so have experienced the difference. If so I would guess that bleach would be the most effective way to simulate aging, as most people already use.

As people have already said, material technology has changed greatly over the past decades so you are notnecessarily comparing like with like (I come up against this with guitar restoration, there is no way you can age a modern 'plastic' guitar finish to make it look like it was built in the 60s, you need to start with the same nitrocellulose lacquer and go on from there to have half a chance)

I understand where you are coming from Red, but I think the experiment you want to carry out is probably based on a heap of theoretical reasons, most of which are likely to have little real effect, and the investment in the water bath seems a waste to me. Unless you have another use for it such as excercising your goldfish

[ronjohn]

I'm always surprised to see so much on this topic - I've always just used household bleach and got a really nice, 'sun drenched - salty, almost blue-ish' look. My only advise is that it looks darker in the bleach than when it gets out and you rinse and dry it - so even if you want it well faded, take it out before you think you need to - even if it still looks black - you can always throw it back in.

I see this as my favorite mod for a vintage. Along with scratching up the case and bracelet a bit. Is there something I'm missing? A look that cannot be achieved with bleach?

[Nanuq]

A few years ago I mentioned that a vintage crystal often has a slightly amber tint to it, and wondered if strong UV would produce that effect. Someone took a gen T39 and exposed it to strong UV and after less than a week he reported that it was going slightly amber, but it had also developed spiderweb cracks all over it! He panicked and pulled it out, but really... what he had was accurate. There are threads on TZ with people showing off their spiderwebbed domed crystals.

I use museum grade glass over my artwork, ostensibly to prevent it fading from UV, even incident scattered UV from the windows at home. The pieces I've protected like this are still as new, but others that I bought from individuals were not protected by anything more than windowpane glass and when you shift the matting you can clearly see where colors are faded.

To me, that means the bulk of insert fading comes from the sun.

[aeromatic]

A few years ago I mentioned that a vintage crystal often has a slightly amber tint to it, and wondered if strong UV would produce that effect. Someone took a gen T39 and exposed it to strong UV and after less than a week he reported that it was going slightly amber, but it had also developed spiderweb cracks all over it! He panicked and pulled it out, but really... what he had was accurate. There are threads on TZ with people showing off their spiderwebbed domed crystals.

I use museum grade glass over my artwork, ostensibly to prevent it fading from UV, even incident scattered UV from the windows at home. The pieces I've protected like this are still as new, but others that I bought from individuals were not protected by anything more than windowpane glass and when you shift the matting you can clearly see where colors are faded.

To me, that means the bulk of insert fading comes from the sun.

Hello nanuq yes i agree about the amber tint i want to experiment with a amber paint which is used for restoring amber classic car lamp that over the years have lost there colour i will try this on the inside of the crystal i have tried a none rolex watch crystal(very old)with a very dark amber tint on my sub and it looked great not only that it actually made the dial looks aged too without having to do anything to your dial ,yes the sun is the way to go natural fading i will experiment this summer i will hang out a yuki bezel insert out in the sun, we have a strong sun here in cyprus i will post photos of it every week to see the different fading stages and compare it with gen bezel insert!

[freddy333]

A few years ago I mentioned that a vintage crystal often has a slightly amber tint to it, and wondered if strong UV would produce that effect. Someone took a gen T39 and exposed it to strong UV and after less than a week he reported that it was going slightly amber, but it had also developed spiderweb cracks all over it! He panicked and pulled it out, but really... what he had was accurate. There are threads on TZ with people showing off their spiderwebbed domed crystals.

Nanuq - I think those spider cracks were in the lens prior to the UV exposure. 1 of the reasons it is not a good idea to take vintage watches (with vintage crystals) in the water is because the plastic material breaks down & becomes brittle over time (with or without UV exposure). The UV exposure then tints the recesses within the cracks (along with the rest of the lens), which makes them more visible.

This explanation came from an old Rolex-trained watchmaker.

[Nanuq]

Thanks Freddy! It makes sense. My Doxa Sharkie has the original crystal and it's developing those age cracks too.

Hmmmmmm, not unlike its owner, eh??