Major Ploprof Issue

[offshore]

Best fix for this would most likely be a bead of jewelers glue (kind of like a thick gel cyanoacrylate) around the joint followed by a sweep with a razor- kind of like sealing a joint in drywall/gypsum board. Then before it sets, seat the crystal.

This way you're not extending the diameter of the crystal and you're also adding a second bond by gluing the crystal in the case.

This is of course assuming the effing thing hasn't delaminated on you to begin with

P, I like this concept.

I'm thinking a simple run of clear silicone around the joint would achieve much the same effect.

However my concern is that the original laminating glue was either -

1 Incorrect.

2 Out of date,

3 Poorly applied, or not UV set correctly.

I have the watch with the above problem incoming in the next 24 hours.

I am going to seperate the 2 laminations using acetone (or whatever it takes- maybe water will do it?), then clean up the faces and relaminate with decent UV glue, and apply a silicone seal around the circumference.

I just really think that someone in the crystal factory has f**ked up big time, and used the incorrect bottle of glue!

Probably some water based thing, maybe even "Clag" paper glue

But there are now a minimum of 1000 crystals out in the market place, and you can bet they won't replace them in the new watches, until the old supply is used up, so a solution must be found.

I will document my process and report it once under way.

Offshore

[offshore]

Received the watch case in from MMA today, and commenced "surgery"

A couple of comments on other aspects before we get to the crystal however.

Firstly during disassembly I noted that the stem is using a stem extender, obviously a sufficiently long stem was not available, so an extender was thrown in.

I also noted that the rear case O ring is unusually placed around the circumference of the case back, above the thread, and in this instance was too big and not seating very well (I have deliberately draped it over the case back to show the oversize of it)

So onto the crystal-

Firstly it was an absolute mother to get out.

I failed to remove it with two various presses with nylon dies...there was just too much give in the nylon.

So I resorted to a GS press with a rubber cap pushing into a bakelite die, and it finally popped

.

The lamination can be clearly seen here.

The delamination on this one was hard to catch in a photo but can be seen here at about 1 o'clock.

One other interesting point, is that the two crystals which have been joined are marginally different diameters-

The Mineral glass (3mm thick) is 28.9 mm

Whilst the sapphire is a whisker smaller at 28.89mm

Seating of the crystal is into a sealing ring ( I hate 'em) This photo is not to brilliant, however the plastic sealing ring can be clearly seen, as its dark green.

Now MMA is showing extreme faith in my abilities (or lack thereof) and has given me permission to test to destruction if needed...I just hope it doesn't get to that.

My theory is that the crystal can be seperated by soaking in acetone, which is where we are at right now. I am hoping that the acetone will not have (any) effect on the AR, however I have talked this through with MMD, and he is happy to proceed and split them using this as an initial trial.

I then propose to relaminate with Loctite UV glue 358, and run a very thin bead of silicone around the circumference to seal the laminate, once the UV has cured. There is a bevel edge on the MG crystal which will allow this bead to be effective without adding to the overall diameter (I hope )

At the same time, MMA is speaking with his watch supplier, in the hope that he can get a solid 1 piece sapphire, which is the obvious answer.

I'm also now wondering if we are seeing varying expansion rates between the 2 crystals due to their different composition and thicknesses. Maybe they are just pulling themselves apart through expansion and contraction?

Another alternative is to build a 4.5mm thick crystal from 2 seperate MG crystals which I have here, and we will visit that one later.

So the 1st steps are under way,I'll try to update maybe in 24 hours when we have moved a little further down the track.

Offshore

[Jkay]

Save us, offshore! Save us!

[Nanuq]

It's okay, boys... Offshore is on the case. Tell ya what, when he finds the solution he'll have the world beating a path to his door!

Go get 'em Tiger!

[mastrmindalliance]

Sweet! You got it out neat. I have made my inquiry and keep you posted of outcome!

Looking forward to seeing how this unfolds - or de-laminates as the case may be.

[gran]

Impressive by Offshore and the PloProf saga continues

[offshore]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

So- 4 hours into soaking in acetone, and there is not a sign of further delam.

Not a skerrick of anything has found its way between the 2 crystals.

If it was faulty glue surely there would be some signs by now!

And even though we see a marginal variance in diameters, its not caused by stress in the install process, as there is no way a crystal can "hang up" during an install pressing...it could happen on removal (although the bigger diameter is the bottom one)

So I am now searching for other reasons for this to happen.

(I'll leave the crystal soak overnight, but I don't think I will see any change in the morning)

So...........could it be that the 2 crystals vary so much in both composition and thickness, that they are expanding and contracting so differently during temperature variations, that they are literally pulling apart from each other? Something is causing the lamination to fail, and I'm pretty convinced it isn't water (or water/liquid/solvent intrusion)

Now all/most of the problems were reported after exposure to water...so there would be a larger than normal temperature change at that time. One or two were out of the box....a box which had just transported by air, in a freezing cold cargo hold.....

Wonder what we would see after a night in the freezer.....or 20 minutes in the oven?

I may let this thing swim in the acetone for a few more hours, and then stick it in the freezer, and see what transpires.

We need a lamination expert inputting here about now!

Offshore

[krpster]

Great effort O/S. I think the freezer idea is a good one.

[mastrmindalliance]

Perhaps expanding and contracting with temperature does make sense.

As mine got saturated (not submersed - but seriously wet - more wet than I like to get my gens even) and it stood its ground for nearly six weeks.

And as OS knows, it's been positively arctic here in subtropical Queensland lately...

Keep up the great work Offshore!

[Andei3000]

Could it be, that the glue didn't expand all to the edges, and this gap is just visible when moisture gets in?

What would happen if you pour the Locktite UV glue on the side of the crystal and due to the capillary suction the glue

would get sucked in - then just put it under a UV lamp and done???

Just thoughts which came to my mind right now.

Andei

[gran]

Maybe the correct glue was used to combine the two..just that insufficient amount of glue was used so it only delaminate in regions?...or was heat used in the process?

[offshore]

Following my last post, I was thinking that all the issues have been claimed as started by water, and yet I had not subjected this thing to any water, only acetone.

So I dropped it in a jar of water 3 hours ago.

On inspecting it just now...the delamination is no longer visible!!

Either to the eye or under a 3X mag lamp

WTF?

However when viewed under a 40X microscope, you can just barely make out the area which had delaminated, but either the water, or the previously immersed acetone, has found its way into the delam area, and masked the white out effect of the delam!!

So that was 4 hours in acetone, followed by 3 hours in water, ( room temperature is around 18C - heated)

Well I'm not for one moment thinking we have an answer here folks...I don't think this thing is giving up without a struggle, so I have decided to give it some temperature treatment.

First off, the crystal will be taken from its 18C-20C environment, and put in the freezer @ -4C.

I will then inspect it, tomorrow morning (about 8 hours later) with the mag lamp and microscope, and make some further determinations in testing from there.

I'm thinking it can go from freezing to heat. (either oven or microwave)...haven't thought that far ahead yet.

Anyway into the freezer she goes.

We are interested right now in any and all theories, so just keep throwing 'em up Gents.

Maybe Nanug...who is known for his left of field testing methods, has some pearls of wisdom to offer here ??

Offshore.

[offshore]

Whilst out dropping this thing into the freezer, I was contemplating on how the delam had "disappeared."

Now if the original lamination was done by using UV glue...maybe the 4 hours immersed in acetone allowed enough acetone to seep into the delam area, and reactivate the UV glue??

BUT it then sat for a further 3 hours in water, under a fluro lamp, and it has not as yet had any exposure to UV, to recure the UV glue, (if it is reactivated)

And I have subsequently immersed it in water, just to complicate things.

And now its in the freezer!

Maybe too many tests to soon?

I may just hope for a relatively warm morning tomorrow, and expose it to some UV and 20C sun 1st... although theoretically UV doesn't cure hard for 24 hours...maybe THEN it can have a stint in the cooker!

O/S

[Jkay]

If that is water seeped between the crystals at this stage, the freezing expansion process will pop those crystals apart right quick.

[offshore]

If that is water seeped between the crystals at this stage, the freezing expansion process will pop those crystals apart right quick.

Hopefully !!

O/S

[Francisco]

[thogaa]

Silly factories. I've just put mine in the post returning it to Andrew.

I'm sure looking forward to see how they'll fix it.

I still think you others should return the watches to the various dealers - this way putting some light on the issue and forcing the factory to change the process

All of the dealers write WATER RESISTANT in their description

[MADRED7]

Great read...I am exited of the outcome, thank you OS.

I was thinking very simple when all the PloProfs were delivered and the peeps start waering them.....can it be its just a question of "how long" did those crystal-sandwiches lay around before they got mounted.....maybe some of the delaminated pieces would have needed a bit longer for "drying" the glue between them??? Sounds silly and I cannot really explain.....I try it this way:

When I worked on my 6152 vintage dial I used water-based color, colored the dial in nice faded brown color, I was so excited that I let it dry for only 1 hour and mounted it to the movement and in the watch right after that....looked perfect for 1 hour. But after some exposure to warm sunlight there was mist under the plexi....and that was caused from my coloring-efforts and the only 1 hour of drying....got me now?

Anyway I am looking forward to see the outcome, cheers

Theo

[donerix]

I decided to take mine in the water again.

Not a good idea, now the delamination has taken over about 55% of the whole crystal.

I hope they will have a replacement crystal soon (my last email from torobravo said NO)

[Nanuq]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

How much of the crystal sandwich is grabbed by the case when inserted? Can it be only the bottom of the sandwich is pressed in tight (I remember you said it was TIGHT) and the top of the sandwich is mostly free floating, with only light pressure or NO pressure against its sides?

So you take that combination and wear it. It all heats up to approx body temperature, but the bottom half of the crystal is constrained by its case so it cannot expand as much as it wants to. The top half is free to expand, just a little bit more. Then the unthinkable happens:

IT GETS WET!!!!!

This forces a sudden cooling, which lets the top of the crystal sandwich shrink rapidly, while the bottom crystal doesn't shrink as much (remember it was kept from fully expanding to match the top crystal). The change in relative diameters overcomes the adhesive and it delaminates.

How to test it? Press the crystal assembly back into the case, mount the bezel, attach the caseback (all intended to keep the case dimensions static) then heat the entire watch up to a good hot temp. 110F ought to be plenty. Let it sit for 15min or so to stabilize temperatures, then pour nice cool water on the crystal. I bet the top one will shrink faster than its sandwich brother and you'll see it delaminate.

I think this is a temperature differential issue, not a solvent issue. Mineral glass has a different coefficient of expansion than sapphire.

Anisotropic materials

------------------------

In anisotropic materials the total volumetric expansion is distributed unequally among the three axes and if the crystal symmetry is monoclinic or triclinic even the angles between these axes are subject to thermal changes. In such cases it is necessary to treat thermal expansion as a tensor that has up to six independent elements. A good way to determine the elements of the tensor is to study the expansion by powder diffraction.

For exactly isotropic materials, the area thermal expansion coefficient is 2/3 of the volumetric coefficient.

For exactly isotropic materials, the volumetric thermal expansion coefficient is 3 times the linear expansion coefficient.

material------------coefficients of linear/volumetric thermal expansion

Diamond-----------------1.0---3.0

Gallium(III) arsenide---5.8--17.5

Glass-------------------8.5--25.5

Glass, borosilicate-----3.3---9.9

Iron-------------------11.1--33.3

Nickel-----------------13.0--39.0

Sapphire----------------5.3--15.9

Stainless steel--------17.3--51.9

[offshore]

Hey B,

Thats the sort of left field analysis i was looking for.

The only two queries on this are-

1. The bottom crystal (MG) is tight, but it fits into one of those dinky plastic retainers....wouldn't they give enough to overcome this?

2. It is not possible at this time to remove the bezel. Now its ID is 290, so the crystal just clears when you press it. But you are working "inside" to try to get exact measurements on the retainer, and I don't have inside reading calipers. So I'm guessing a bit.

However I am also thinking this problem is associated with temperature and the various materials' physical properties.

So after I have subjected this thing to some freezing, and some UV and heat, we will go down this track.

Nice work.

Offshore

[Nanuq]

Thanks, A. Even removed from the case I think you could delaminate the beastie by heating and cooling. There's a lot of mass there so give it time to fully heat up, and get full expansion of all 3 axes. Since sapphire is harder than glass, it also conducts heat better, and that will add to the thermal shock.

material---------thermal conductivity

Water (liquid)------0.6

Glass---------------1.1

Stainless steel----12.11 ~ 45.0

Diamond-----------900 ~ 2320

[ChipSlap]

Have you tried water and heat simultaneously?

Any reaction that happens with water should be greatly accelerated in boiling water.

[offshore]

So maybe the old...out of the boiling water...into cold water trick?

O/S

[ChipSlap]

So maybe the old...out of the boiling water...into cold water trick?

O/S

Yes. Back and forth, punish that f*cker!