msp Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 hello... im about to build a superfranken submariner 16610 therefore i wanna rob the 3135 out of a used gen dj from 1996.. and put it into a bk wm9 v3 now my question is.. are there any differences inbetween a submariner 3135 and a datejust 3135 movement? (bk assured me that its gonna take the 3135..) i wont do it by myself since i got no clue and not a really patient hand for this please help me out -martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefcook Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 The movements are exactly the same in datejust and submariner, so this should be a direct swap. Don't forget getting gen Submariner hands. If you are going to build an LV franken you might have some problems finding correct hands, so I'd recommend building a black sub. The other questions is: The Datejust will set you back at least 2000 Euros if it is in a condition that does not require a full movement service. Then you'll need hands, a BK WM9 V3 and the work to get all together, so you'd maybe spend 2800 Euros. Why not spending 400 Euros more and getting a used gen sub 16610 in good condition with box and papers? With some negotiating they usually go in the 3200 Euro range here in Europe. Not long ago you could get a NEW 14060 no date sub for 3400 Euros... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetor Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 ^ agreed, set a budget limit, around 1k max if you ask me. If I were you I would just get at least gen crown +tube, gen crystal, dial, then finally bezel. Even that is pushing it though. As for me, gen dial, gen crown and gen insert will be max. I've already gathered up the last two parts but shelling money for the dial is a bit really tough for me; I can get a new rep for that kind of money or start my own pad printing. Anyways here are general cost breakdown: Use this as a guide to budget up. Breakdown: - WM9 V3 (~$600) - wm9 v.15 (~$400) - 3135 movement (~1850) - gen hands (~$200) - gen dial ($250-$300) - gen bezel assembly (~$400-500) - insert alone ($70-150; depending on condition) - gen crystal (~$200) - gen crown + tube ($120?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msp Posted December 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 ^ agreed, set a budget limit, around 1k max if you ask me. If I were you I would just get at least gen crown +tube, gen crystal, dial, then finally bezel. Even that is pushing it though. As for me, gen dial, gen crown and gen insert will be max. I've already gathered up the last two parts but shelling money for the dial is a bit really tough for me; I can get a new rep for that kind of money or start my own pad printing. Anyways here are general cost breakdown: Use this as a guide to budget up. Breakdown: - WM9 V3 (~$600) - wm9 v.15 (~$400) - 3135 movement (~1850) - gen hands (~$200) - gen dial ($250-$300) - gen bezel assembly (~$400-500) - insert alone ($70-150; depending on condition) - gen crystal (~$200) - gen crown + tube ($120?) the one im after has got a gen crown + bezel already.. i placed my bid at around 600$ for the dj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 I would think the bottom end price for a '96 DJ would be $1500 and probably more like $2000. I don't see how you're going to get one for $600! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosnik Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 i placed my bid at around 600$ for the dj Bit for two pieces! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefcook Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 The cheapest Datejust with 3135 currently offered on chrono24.com is 1873 euros or 2468 USD. Offering 600 USD for a '96 datejust either means rip off for one of both parties in the deal or not knowing the market situation and worth of such watches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetor Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) 600 for a datejust on ebay? shirley you can't be serious? 0_o your priorities are so different than mine Edited December 9, 2010 by praetor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highoeyazmuhudee Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 i might get some flak for this, but gen movements just arent worth it in reps. nice to have? YES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefcook Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 when it comes to Rolex you are completely right, Mr. Unpronouncable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 i might get some flak for this, but gen movements just arent worth it in reps. nice to have? YES. I pretty much agree 100%. At least in the case of a WM9 V3. I can see a gen insert and gen crown, but what's the point of going beyond that unless you just happen upon a gen dial. If you can buy a used 16610 for $3K, why build a franken for $2K-2500? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 +1 There is zero bang for the buck here. You will easily have 75% of the money into this that you could buy a Gen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 I pretty much agree 100%. At least in the case of a WM9 V3. I can see a gen insert and gen crown, but what's the point of going beyond that unless you just happen upon a gen dial. If you can buy a used 16610 for $3K, why build a franken for $2K-2500? We've been talking a lot lately about the price/value ratio with "Super frankens" The general consensus is around 20% of the cost of a genuine model. With a 16610, you can't even come closer to that. I have seen older 16610's over on VRF for less than 3k, and lots for sale around 3.5k, so if you use the 20% rule, you shouldn't spend more than 700.00 USD which is just a little more than and unmodified WM/BK will cost you. Like some of the others said, at the most a genuine crystal, bezel insert crown/tube. If you were doing this over time, you could be on the lookout for a good dial that could be installed later. Still with this, you are way over budget. As to the 3135, if you can get one for 600.00 USD , buy a bunch, because you can sell all you can find for 800-900 USD and make a 300 USD profit on every one! When you said you bid 600, that's not the same as winning one for 600. Over the last month, i bid on probably 10-15 older datejusts specifically for a 1570 movement. most of those sat around 300-600 USD until the last few minutes of the auction, and in a couple of minutes the prices jumped from 600 to 1500. I ended up buying a movement off a VRF member. So if I were you, I would expect to pay 1500-2000 USD for a good serviced 3135. My advice to you. Save your modding money and get a genuine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 As to the 3135, if you can get one for 600.00 USD , buy a bunch, because you can sell all you can find for 800-900 USD and make a 300 USD profit on every one! When you said you bid 600, that's not the same as winning one for 600. Over the last month, i bid on probably 10-15 older datejusts specifically for a 1570 movement. most of those sat around 300-600 USD until the last few minutes of the auction, and in a couple of minutes the prices jumped from 600 to 1500. I ended up buying a movement off a VRF member. So if I were you, I would expect to pay 1500-2000 USD for a good serviced 3135. My advice to you. Save your modding money and get a genuine Tell me about it. I look daily for something inexpensive enough to make my 1680(Gen White Dial) Project fit within the 20% rule. It is not happening. Might as well budget $1500 for a serviced/or excellent 1570 movement. Probably true for a 3135. Sigh.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msp Posted December 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) Tell me about it. I look daily for something inexpensive enough to make my 1680(Gen White Dial) Project fit within the 20% rule. It is not happening. Might as well budget $1500 for a serviced/or excellent 1570 movement. Probably true for a 3135. Sigh.... heres the deal.. v3 with gen crown+bezel 900$ datejust with 3135 600$ dial+hands about 600$ ? anyone knows a source for a gen dial+hands for a 16610? PS: im only doing this if i get the 3135.. Edited December 10, 2010 by msp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosnik Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 Do not lose a GENUINE bracelet, when you getting paragon on price GEN Vs. Frankie... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highoeyazmuhudee Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) heres the deal.. v3 with gen crown+bezel 900$ datejust with 3135 600$ dial+hands about 600$ ? anyone knows a source for a gen dial+hands for a 16610? PS: im only doing this if i get the 3135.. those prices you're dreaming. youre under estimating it by $1200 conservatively. factor in a gen crown, insert, bracelet, crystal, bezel assembly... +$1400 you've arrived at a used gen late 90s to early 2000s for little more. why not consider a chronograde ETA 2892, which is ETAs flagship, does well in their omegas and many other luxury brands, comparable to the 3135 at a fraction of the cost, most people experience a daily gain of +1 or better can be had for $250-$800 and everything in between. some food for thought. http://www.chronometrie.com/rolex3135/rolex3135.html alternatively why not consider a used late 90s 14060, classic design, rolex 3000 series movement, still every bit a rolex sub minus the debris sheltering date window. used prices are a negotiable $3200-$3800. theres even one on TZ for $2600 right now. own a real rolex sub right now for the same price as your proposed franken. Edited December 10, 2010 by highoeyazmuhudee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 those prices you're dreaming. youre under estimating it by $1200 conservatively. factor in a gen crown, insert, bracelet, crystal, bezel assembly... +$1400 you've arrived at a used gen late 90s to early 2000s for little more. why not consider a chronograde ETA 2892, which is ETAs flagship, does well in their omegas and many other luxury brands, comparable to the 3135 at a fraction of the cost, most people experience a daily gain of +1 or better can be had for $250-$800 and everything in between. some food for thought. http://www.chronomet.../rolex3135.html alternatively why not consider a used late 90s 14060, classic design, rolex 3000 series movement, still every bit a rolex sub minus the debris sheltering date window. used prices are a negotiable $3200-$3800. theres even one on TZ for $2600 right now. own a real rolex sub right now for the same price as your proposed franken. I hate to be the harbinger of bad news , but I totally agree. you are a couple of thousand off on the cost of your super franken. First as I said above you aren't going to find a 3135 movement for 600.00 USD, Another thing, you have grossly underestimated the costs. You seem to be using Ebay starting prices rather than closing prices for your parts. Also, you haven't mentioned a bracelet. You certanly need a genuine bracelet to complement your watch. I believe that all of the folks who have weighed in on your project are experienced forum members who have all modded watches to a much higher level. I believe as well that all will agree, most of their priojects ended up costing significantly more than they estimated. The sales forum is often a destination for projects that are abandoned because members grossly underestiimated costs. Another factor that you need to consider is resale value. i would suspect that if you go forward with this project, and at some point in time you need to sell it, you will be hard pressed to get 50% of your costs back, unless you part out the watch. I would take the WM9/BK to the next level with perhaps a genuine crown/tube, bezel insert, possibly a bezel, but as far as going anything past that point. It's very iffy. The movement in a v3 is a reliable Swiss ETA movement. get it serviced and it should be relaible for years. Wear the hell out of it and enjoy it. Even if you changed everything buit the case, it's still a rep. It's never going to be a genuine, no matter how many genuine parts you add. If you want a genuine 16610, I would invest in a genuine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msp Posted December 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) I hate to be the harbinger of bad news , but I totally agree. you are a couple of thousand off on the cost of your super franken. First as I said above you aren't going to find a 3135 movement for 600.00 USD, Another thing, you have grossly underestimated the costs. You seem to be using Ebay starting prices rather than closing prices for your parts. Also, you haven't mentioned a bracelet. You certanly need a genuine bracelet to complement your watch. I believe that all of the folks who have weighed in on your project are experienced forum members who have all modded watches to a much higher level. I believe as well that all will agree, most of their priojects ended up costing significantly more than they estimated. The sales forum is often a destination for projects that are abandoned because members grossly underestiimated costs. Another factor that you need to consider is resale value. i would suspect that if you go forward with this project, and at some point in time you need to sell it, you will be hard pressed to get 50% of your costs back, unless you part out the watch. I would take the WM9/BK to the next level with perhaps a genuine crown/tube, bezel insert, possibly a bezel, but as far as going anything past that point. It's very iffy. The movement in a v3 is a reliable Swiss ETA movement. get it serviced and it should be relaible for years. Wear the hell out of it and enjoy it. Even if you changed everything buit the case, it's still a rep. It's never going to be a genuine, no matter how many genuine parts you add. If you want a genuine 16610, I would invest in a genuine. i can get a used bk wm9 v3 with gen insert+crown for about 900$ built in already.. that watch runs a gen eta already the dj on ebay still got 3 days to go.. price hasnt changed yet.. i actually wish it went above my bid Edited December 10, 2010 by msp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highoeyazmuhudee Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 im pretty sure no one on ebay will let a movement or a complete rolex go for $600, so if you want out im sure youll get your wish. well consider this pretty sweet deal. nothing more to buy once you have it either. http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=5407127&rid=0 im sure you can counter with an offer of $3 even if youre geographically lucky and can do a face to face transaction with cash money. although at that price i wouldnt actually expect it to last long online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosnik Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 It's not chap. no box no papers.......... The losing of box and paper get quotation 40% low than standard NOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 I think you need to slow down a little bit here and do a little more research before you jump into this... that DJ auction could stay at $600 until the last 5 minutes then it will jump to $2000+ guaranteed. You simply cannot get a 3035 or 3135 for anywhere near that. Even if you find one for $1200 or so, plan on putting $500 into it for servicing and parts. There is usually a reason that they are for sale on ebay (read: not working properly). You cant even get a 1570 cal for less than $1200 these days... I also dont see how you will get a decent gen 16610 dial for $300?? Your estimated prices are way off my friend. Rolex parts are literally worth their weight in gold. NObody is going to sell these parts for half of what they are worth unless theres a catch, and there usually is. Trust the senior members here that have been building frankens for many many years. Ive seen gen 16610's going for under $3000 lately. Why spend $2500 building a franken replica when you can have a gen for $3000? I also agree that putting a gen movement into into a franken is too expensive unless you are a watchmaker and happen to have one laying around... Gen 16610's are too cheap these days to make it worth it. dizz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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