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chiman12

Modding the cartel vintage Daytona's for proper sub-dial spacing.

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I took some time off on a couple of projects (sorry Flex!) and focused on the cartel 6263 that has been recently released with the the asymmetrical pusher configuration, but has crappy sub-dials.

I bought the white PN dial. Besides the big crappy sub-dials, the rest of the dial isn't actually too bad. But the killer is the sub-dials. They are a larger than gen and the hour sub-dial even bleeds into the outside track of the dial. Definitely 2 thumbs down!

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When you turn over the watch, you will notice that one of the pusher notches doesn't seem to be cut as deep as the other...

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There is a reason for this, which I will explain later.

Opening the case...a shot of inside the case back. Once again not too bad, engravings are deep, fonts are pronounced...

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Shot of the famous Seagull movement that was used in this rep.

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But waitaminute...the Seagull has symmetrical pusher configuration, so how can the new cartel vintage Daytona's have asymmetrical pushers?

Here is the cartel's answer to the symmetrical/asymmetrical problem...

P1014498.JPG

For the top pusher, the cartel fashioned a little "L" shaped arm that attaches to the pusher. This "L" shaped arm actually compensates for the difference in distance between a symmetrical and asymmetrical pusher position. The offset is a good 6 to 8mm. This also explains why one of the pusher notches is not as deep as the other one. The cartel had to machine a groove in the case to fit the "L" shaped arm and as a result, the corresponding pusher need to be shortened. Though not noticable at first or even second glance, the top pusher is a bit shorter than the bottom pusher.

I give the cartel this credit...very ingenious, but when the watch is flipped over, the notch is a sure tell. Otherwise, when the watch sits on your wrist, the notch is not noticable at all.

In my exploration, I also discovered that the seagull can never have the proper sub dial spacing for a Daytona. I bought an InGod44 PN dial just for the purpose of modding the cartel to give it the same sub-dial spacing as a gen Daytona. I discovered this...

P1014504.JPG

InGod dial on top and the cartel dial on the bottom. Notice how the cartel hour sub-dial post hole is slightly lower than the InGod? Yup...a gen-spec dial is not a direct swap.

BUT...I wasn't going to give up, so I proceeded to tear apart the Daytona and I discovered the following.

As you may well know, the hour totalizer (sub-dial) is static for the Seagull movement...in other words, it is not functional. Here is the little gear responsible for holding the hour totalizer hand in place.

P1014541.JPG

The hour gear needs to be moved slightly upwards, but the gear is set into place by a pivot and a pivot hole machined into the top plate of the movement.

P1014543.JPG

I had to either move the position of the pivot hole or remove the pivot. I decided that to remove the pivot would be the easiest way. So I proceeded to file down the pivot, until it was gone and the gear sat flat on the surface of the movement plate.

I then took the cover plate...Notice that the plate keeps the hour gear in a specific spot.

P1014542.JPG

So I enlarged the hour gear hole by using one of my trusty broaches. But the gear had to stay in its new position, so I used some cold weld adhesive to affix the gear into the proper place on the movement plate. I used slow set cold weld adhesive as this would provide some extra time to move the hour gear into the proper position. I quickly reinstalled the cover plate and placed the InGod dial onto the movement. I then aligned the post to the new dial.

Here is the end result...

P1014544.JPG

After the adhesive has dried, I used dial dot tape to install the InGod dial. Notice that the hour post is in the middle...

P1014545.JPG

The hands go back on...

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...and the final product...the subdial issue for the vintage cartel Daytona...solved!!!

P1014547-1.JPG

Okay...back to Flex's projects...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The thing that blows my mind is that the cartel watch has this flaw in the first place. The 6'o clock subdial is fake, they could have put it anywhere they wanted to!

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Congrats! DO these guys read the forums???? How simple it would be to build one to genuine 1:1!

Also, why can't anyone properly reproduce a Valjoux 72 movement? All the ins and outs to get around design issues could be solved so easily - i think!

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Great work ChiMan! How does the offset in the top pusher affect feel in operation? Seems like the vector of force would be at a different angle potentially causing problems.

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Thanks everyone...but I am not fullyly convinced that the cartel with the mod and a new dial is the way to go. Especially when the price of a DW with the mystery movement is within striking range and doesn't require that "L" shaped arm.

In fact, I would much prefer the DW with the 7760 and deal with the minor sub-dial issue...

The next thing I'll do is install a spare DW bezel and replace the crown/tube...

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Great work ChiMan! How does the offset in the top pusher affect feel in operation? Seems like the vector of force would be at a different angle potentially causing problems.

J...the function feels fine. I don't think the angle to the chrono lever is that severe that it will cause problems in the future. In addition, it probably takes only about 5psi (if that???) to engage the chrono lever.

But time will tell...that is if I don't sell it first!

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Also, why can't anyone properly reproduce a Valjoux 72 movement? All the ins and outs to get around design issues could be solved so easily - i think!

Cloning movements is incredibly expensive. Nothing "easy" about it.

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I wonder if the st19 movement fits a valjoux 72 case though. If it does, this would mean a lot. Wow this is such a great mod.

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I wonder if the st19 movement fits a valjoux 72 case though. If it does, this would mean a lot. Wow this is such a great mod.

Definitely not P...the st19 is quite a bit larger than the V72...

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Especially when the price of a DW with the mystery movement is within striking range and doesn't require that "L" shaped arm.

Great write up, but does DW still do mystery movements? Last time I asked he said that he doesn't do them because of reliability.

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I wonder if the st19 movement fits a valjoux 72 case though. If it does, this would mean a lot. Wow this is such a great mod.

I had the same thought and machined out the inside of a DW case, fit the movement and dial, and the crown position is way different. :angry:

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I had the same thought and machined out the inside of a DW case, fit the movement and dial, and the crown position is way different. :angry:

Nice job ChiMan !!!

but, just curious :

If I undestand well, this Seagull movement copy has the correct Rolex specs (V72) for the 3 and 9 subdials spacing ? so gens/aftermarket cosmograph dials are usable ???

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awesome write up. How is the quality of the ingod PN dial? I definitely have an eye for that cream PN dial.

E

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Nice job ChiMan !!!

but, just curious :

If I undestand well, this Seagull movement copy has the correct Rolex specs (V72) for the 3 and 9 subdials spacing ? so gens/aftermarket cosmograph dials are usable ???

The dial lined up perfectly it was just the stem height. IIRC it was too high and I decided if I machined a spacer then the case-back would run into the movement...

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awesome write up. How is the quality of the ingod PN dial? I definitely have an eye for that cream PN dial.

E

It is okay, the paint is more fragile than other dials. But accuracy wise...inGod is the tops!

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If I undestand well, this Seagull movement copy has the correct Rolex specs (V72) for the 3 and 9 subdials spacing ? so gens/aftermarket cosmograph dials are usable ???

The InGod dial that C used is sized for a V72, so the answer is definitely yes!

I think this is the most exciting aspect to this project, regardless of whether DW's mid-case is a better replication. I've got a nice V72-spec dial that I've been wanting to use, and this is a much cheaper solution than a V23 (or another V72!), and I'd rather not buy one of the last remaining Mystery Movements.

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