UK Riots

[woof*]

Culture, my friends. It all comes down to the morals (or lack thereof) that get passed down from parent to child within a given culture.

Cultures that teach The Golden Rule & uphold the rule of law tend to be more successful & less violent than those that lionize rapsterism (the beat that moves gangsterism) & its concomitant criminality. Compare, for example, Israel, which has the largest number of guns per capita of any nation, but 1 of the lowest rates of (peace-time) gun-related crime; to the US, which has far fewer guns per capita, but far more gun-related violence. And, to take it a step further, democracies tend not attack each other, while autocracies & theocracies often do.

I had an enlightening conversation today with a gentleman who emigrated to California from Mexico in 1970. He twice referenced 'his country' [Mexico], which immediately struck me as odd for someone who has been living in the US for over 30 years! When I asked him about this, he said he is 'still Mexican'. This stands in stark contrast to the millions of Asian & European immigrants who come to the US primarily to 'be Americans'. And much the same is occurring with many so-called asylum seekers entering the UK & other parts of the EU.

Something has definitely changed & it does not bode well for long-term homogeneity.

yep

[kingkaiser]

I find in Canada it is different. I have know a lot of illegals. Here they come from place like Sri Lanka, work under the table at restaurants as kitchen staff and bus boys.. And the kicker.. They buy used bmws and fake gold rolexes to impress each other and people back home.

I was at my shop a few months ago, and this Indian guy called, he just moved to the country a few days ago and was calling to see if the shop owner can find him a BMW for around $1000. When you call back home you tell them you got a BMW and you live downtown... You don't tell them it's a 30 year old BMW and you live with 6 guys in a 1 bedroom apartment in the ghetto..

But who really cares? As long as those immigrants are working, and aspiring to something better, they're the type that every country would want. Its the cash-in-the-welfare-check-and-buy-Air-Jordans crowd (or the steal-the-Air-Jordans) that ruin communities. For the most part, I find the subcontinental (Indian, Pakistani, etc) immigrants in most countries to be diligent, hard-working, and always trying to move up in the world. Eg: Asians and Subcontinentals are disproportionately represented in top earning professions, and also in top universities, medical schools, top MBA programs, etc - its commonly known that they are subject to reverse racism in admissions processes. And these families usually immigrate here to escape bad or mediocre lives back home, so its not like they're coming with millions in the bank.

Without any doubt there are a few nutters who are radical, but if you were to run with a stereotype for the typical South Asian, IMO it would be a positive one.

Frankly, I'd rather have the aspirational guy with the 20 yr old BMW in my community, rather than the guy who thinks that *my* 3 yr old BMW would look nice in his garage, and steals to get it.

[sempire]

But who really cares? As long as those immigrants are working, and aspiring to something better, they're the type that every country would want. Its the cash-in-the-welfare-check-and-buy-Air-Jordans crowd (or the steal-the-Air-Jordans) that ruin communities. For the most part, I find the subcontinental (Indian, Pakistani, etc) immigrants in most countries to be diligent, hard-working, and always trying to move up in the world. Eg: Asians and Subcontinentals are disproportionately represented in top earning professions, and also in top universities, medical schools, top MBA programs, etc - its commonly known that they are subject to reverse racism in admissions processes. And these families usually immigrate here to escape bad or mediocre lives back home, so its not like they're coming with millions in the bank.

Without any doubt there are a few nutters who are radical, but if you were to run with a stereotype for the typical South Asian, IMO it would be a positive one.

Frankly, I'd rather have the aspirational guy with the 20 yr old BMW in my community, rather than the guy who thinks that *my* 3 yr old BMW would look nice in his garage, and steals to get it.

It's great when you have good workers that want to help build the country and do good for themselves and their families, but it's just that what you tend to see a lot of is that a lot of people are now expecting to live the dream without the hard work or playing by the rules. When people start wanting to live way beyond their means that's when the trouble starts. When you make used Hyundai money and you need to have a BMW that's when the trouble starts.

It's not that people have a problem with immigrants and immigration, it's that there is a problem with certain ones. Some people are here to make a better life, and some people just expect a better life to be handed to them.

[plaifender]

Culture, my friends. It all comes down to the morals (or lack thereof) that get passed down from parent to child within a given culture.

Cultures that teach The Golden Rule & uphold the rule of law tend to be more successful & less violent than those that lionize rapsterism (the beat that moves gangsterism) & its concomitant criminality. Compare, for example, Israel, which has the largest number of guns per capita of any nation, but 1 of the lowest rates of (peace-time) gun-related crime; to the US, which has far fewer guns per capita, but far more gun-related violence. And, to take it a step further, democracies tend not attack each other, while autocracies & theocracies often do.

I had an enlightening conversation today with a gentleman who emigrated to California from Mexico in 1970. He twice referenced 'his country' [Mexico], which immediately struck me as odd for someone who has been living in the US for over 30 years! When I asked him about this, he said he is 'still Mexican'. This stands in stark contrast to the millions of Asian & European immigrants who come to the US primarily to 'be Americans'. And much the same is occurring with many so-called asylum seekers entering the UK & other parts of the EU.

Something has definitely changed & it does not bode well for long-term homogeneity.

@ Freddy:

I think it's interesting that you infer that there are some cultures that are inherently "better and more successful" than others because of their moral values. What cultures are you specifically referring to, and what do you mean by better? This is blatant and utter non-sense. If you're equating "rap" music and culture to crime and violence.. you're terribly mistaken. Violence has ALWAYS been around.. and there's NO IMPERICAL evidence whatsoever to suggest that there's more or less violence now, than there was when you were growing up. The only thing that's changed is the availability of modern man to kill many people very quickly with the advancement of weapons technology. America is responsible for 200 years of violence and oppression against innocent human-beings that were considered "non-human". EVERY culture on earth has experienced oppression and violence at some point. To ignore that fact and every consequence thereafter is to ignore causes and contributions to the current state of affairs.

You talk about "homogeneity" as if it were a positive word. Spain is a "homogenous" society in terms of skin color, does that make spain better than say, France? Does a heterogeneous society have more to worry about than a homogenous society? I really don't think so. To me the word is completely neutral. After 30 years of living in the U.S. your surprised that a mexican man would want to be anything but American, but within your thought process lies the problem. Asian and European immigrants didn't come to America to "Be Americans" (as if being American was some cool fad at the turn of the century). Asian and European immigrants who came to this country, came for economic reasons. The "american pride" part came secondly, and it was something taught to them, not inherent in having an American passport. I'm offended that anyone would second-question the love of any man's home, whether that home be Mexico, Japan or England. Despite what we teach ourselves, pride is NOT positive and does not unite people when the pride is based upon uncontrollable factors that have no merit behind them. Example:

Are you proud to be an American? The answer is probably yes, but have you asked yourself why? Why should you be proud of something that you have no control over? Did you ask to become American (chances are probably no). Are you a white male? Are you proud to be a white male? If so, why should anyone be proud of being white, black, brown, yellow or green. Pride should be based on merits and valor and not on inherent physical traits OR circumstances that cannot be controlled. Have you worked hard your whole life? If so, don't you think that you should be proud of yourself for achieving everything you've achieved?

In the end, we are talking about a clash of cultures, but we shouldn't be looking at some cultures as bad and others as good. Good and bad exists in all of us, and the discussion should really be about the circumstances of how this anger came to be expressed, not about the negativities of an artistic sub-culture.

[woof*]

@ Freddy:

I think it's interesting that you infer that there are some cultures that are inherently "better and more successful" than others because of their moral values. What cultures are you specifically referring to, and what do you mean by better? This is blatant and utter non-sense. If you're equating "rap" music and culture to crime and violence.. you're terribly mistaken. Violence has ALWAYS been around.. and there's NO IMPERICAL evidence whatsoever to suggest that there's more or less violence now, than there was when you were growing up. The only thing that's changed is the availability of modern man to kill many people very quickly with the advancement of weapons technology. America is responsible for 200 years of violence and oppression against innocent human-beings that were considered "non-human". EVERY culture on earth has experienced oppression and violence at some point. To ignore that fact and every consequence thereafter is to ignore causes and contributions to the current state of affairs.

You talk about "homogeneity" as if it were a positive word. Spain is a "homogenous" society in terms of skin color, does that make spain better than say, France? Does a heterogeneous society have more to worry about than a homogenous society? I really don't think so. To me the word is completely neutral. After 30 years of living in the U.S. your surprised that a mexican man would want to be anything but American, but within your thought process lies the problem. Asian and European immigrants didn't come to America to "Be Americans" (as if being American was some cool fad at the turn of the century). Asian and European immigrants who came to this country, came for economic reasons. The "american pride" part came secondly, and it was something taught to them, not inherent in having an American passport. I'm offended that anyone would second-question the love of any man's home, whether that home be Mexico, Japan or England. Despite what we teach ourselves, pride is NOT positive and does not unite people when the pride is based upon uncontrollable factors that have no merit behind them. Example:

Are you proud to be an American? The answer is probably yes, but have you asked yourself why? Why should you be proud of something that you have no control over? Did you ask to become American (chances are probably no). Are you a white male? Are you proud to be a white male? If so, why should anyone be proud of being white, black, brown, yellow or green. Pride should be based on merits and valor and not on inherent physical traits OR circumstances that cannot be controlled. Have you worked hard your whole life? If so, don't you think that you should be proud of yourself for achieving everything you've achieved?

In the end, we are talking about a clash of cultures, but we shouldn't be looking at some cultures as bad and others as good. Good and bad exists in all of us, and the discussion should really be about the circumstances of how this anger came to be expressed, not about the negativities of an artistic sub-culture.

Seriously?

[plaifender]

Seriously?

Yeah, seriously. Or at least half-seriously...

Do you have something to add woof? Your response is kind of ambiguous.

[woof*]

No, nothing to add. Freddy summed it up. I think I know where your coming from, and how you got there.

I probably shouldn't have said anything. To each his own

[plaifender]

No, nothing to add. Freddy summed it up. I think I know where your coming from, and how you got there.

I probably shouldn't have said anything. To each his own

Kudos Woof.

Maybe I should have been a bit more clear from my response, as I made it sound as if being proud were a sin. I'm an american in spain, and will always be "proud" to be one. What I think is dangerous is when you think of how the word proud is used in the context of nationality, regionalism, ethnicity etc. I also happen to be black and 1/4japanese.. If you ask me if I'm proud, then of course I'll say yes... But on a deeper level, it's kind of a silly thing to be proud of. No one ever says, "look, my tongue is pink... I'm proud of it. "

The issue of pride had relevance to Freddy's comments because freddy seemed to be surprised that the Mexican seemed proud of Mexico despite having been in America for 30 years. As an example in a different context: I myself am an American living and working abroad. My wife is Spanish and I plan on being in Spain for at least a fairly significant part of my life. In 30 years if a Spaniard walks up to me on the street and I tell him that I love my country the United States, I don't expect him to be surprised that I love the country I was born in. Meanwhile, Fredddy seemed to be surprised when the mexican man told him something to the same effect.

I guess to sum it up: "pride" is contextual and has nothing to do with immigrants' decisions in going to another country.

[maxman]

I think I figured out the problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4o-TeMHys0 I dont think even Chuck Norris would fuk with this guy, he kind of reminds me of a militant Santa Claus

[maxman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgmjL6z2jY Pride goeth before the fall..

[TeeJay]

Kudos Woof.

Maybe I should have been a bit more clear from my response, as I made it sound as if being proud were a sin. I'm an american in spain, and will always be "proud" to be one. What I think is dangerous is when you think of how the word proud is used in the context of nationality, regionalism, ethnicity etc. I also happen to be black and 1/4japanese.. If you ask me if I'm proud, then of course I'll say yes... But on a deeper level, it's kind of a silly thing to be proud of. No one ever says, "look, my tongue is pink... I'm proud of it. "

The issue of pride had relevance to Freddy's comments because freddy seemed to be surprised that the Mexican seemed proud of Mexico despite having been in America for 30 years. As an example in a different context: I myself am an American living and working abroad. My wife is Spanish and I plan on being in Spain for at least a fairly significant part of my life. In 30 years if a Spaniard walks up to me on the street and I tell him that I love my country the United States, I don't expect him to be surprised that I love the country I was born in. Meanwhile, Fredddy seemed to be surprised when the mexican man told him something to the same effect.

I guess to sum it up: "pride" is contextual and has nothing to do with immigrants' decisions in going to another country.

One of the Seven Deadly

I totally agree with you, I think it's silly to be proud of things which one had no influence over such as nationality or skin color. I'm proud that I have a good eye for artistic details, and that I can accurately 'eyeball' most measurements, but those are skills which I have learned over the years. When I was 8, my friend, A, was always a better artist than me, and his drawings were really good. He's recently got himself hooked up with a tattoo apprenticeship in our hometown, and I couldn't be happier for him, but when he posted some of his artwork online, I was shocked at how -for lack of a better word- 'juvenile' his drawings were. A few of the practice pieces he had done were really good examples of Cholo-style tattoos (if they were being done in prison with guitar string and pen ink ), but the majority of the paper drawings, while they would be good from a child, are certainly not of the quality I would expect from a professional tattoo artist (and lets be honest here, someone should be a good artist before they even pick up a tattoo machine. As an apprentice, one is learning the medium, not how to draw...) and equally, not the standard I expected his artwork to be at, had his work continued to progress and improve as expected over the years. The point I'm getting at, is that I am now proud that my drawing skills surpass his. Not so much as a case of "I'm better than you ) but that I was able to improve and progress with my skills beyond my original expectations I'm not proud of the fact that I live in the UK, as that's something I had no control over, nor am I particularly proud of 'British Culture', as I've always felt rather disconnected from it (and actually always felt a closer bond to the USA)

[freddy333]

The issue of pride had relevance to Freddy's comments because freddy seemed to be surprised that the Mexican seemed proud of Mexico despite having been in America for 30 years........In 30 years if a Spaniard walks up to me on the street and I tell him that I love my country the United States, I don't expect him to be surprised that I love the country I was born in. Meanwhile, Fredddy seemed to be surprised when the mexican man told him something to the same effect.

Your comments illustrate part of the problem - willful naivete &/or a simple refusal to face facts.

I was not criticizing the guy's pride, only his misplaced allegiance. If, after spending more than half his live in California (USA), he still identifies himself as Mexican, the USA has a problem. It does & that is my point.

Asians & Europeans came/come to America to BE Americans, not Asians or Europeans. And that has been the case for the past 100+ years. But something shifted in the 70s, so that immigrants, especially Mexicans entering the US (especially those who enter the country illegally) & asylum seekers entering the UK/EU (especially those from Muslim cultures), no longer aspire to assimilate into the indigenous society of their host countries. And that is a BIG problem.

[plaifender]

Your comments illustrate part of the problem - willful naivete &/or a simple refusal to face facts.

I was not criticizing the guy's pride, only his misplaced allegiance. If, after spending more than half his live in California (USA), he still identifies himself as Mexican, the USA has a problem. It does & that is my point.

Asians & Europeans came/come to America to BE Americans, not Asians or Europeans. And that has been the case for the past 100+ years. But something shifted in the 70s, so that immigrants, especially Mexicans entering the US (especially those who enter the country illegally) & asylum seekers entering the UK/EU (especially those from Muslim cultures), no longer aspire to assimilate into the indigenous society of their host countries. And that is a BIG problem.

I'm american. I live in Spain and am married. Have bought a house here and one day will probably raise a family here. So after 30 years of living of spain, and I identify myself as american I have a problem as well??

If you say yes.. I say f*** you. If you say no, I have no problem, then I ask.. Why do you hold me to a different standard than your Mexican friend you encountered in the street?

p.s. Are you "indigenous" Freddy? Last I checked.. immigrants that came to America hardly EVER assimilated to the established "indigenous" population we had in the states. Starting as far back as christopher columbus and the pilgrims.

[mastrmindalliance]

Your comments illustrate part of the problem - willful naivete &/or a simple refusal to face facts.

I was not criticizing the guy's pride, only his misplaced allegiance. If, after spending more than half his live in California (USA), he still identifies himself as Mexican, the USA has a problem. It does & that is my point.

Asians & Europeans came/come to America to BE Americans, not Asians or Europeans. And that has been the case for the past 100+ years. But something shifted in the 70s, so that immigrants, especially Mexicans entering the US (especially those who enter the country illegally) & asylum seekers entering the UK/EU (especially those from Muslim cultures), no longer aspire to assimilate into the indigenous society of their host countries. And that is a BIG problem.

I'm sure that this is just a poorly chosen word.

Interesting that you used it in this discourse... I wonder what the indigenous would say about this scenario.? Afterall, doesn't whats happening here, the concepts we're talking about, draw some HUGE parralels to the arrival of the Europeans in countries like America and Australia (amongst many others)?

Lets boil it down. We're talking about huge amount of immigrants arriving with no intention of observing the local customs and assimiliating to the detriment of the existing culture. I'm sure American Indians and Australian Aboriginals see the irony. It sounds awfully familiar.

Btw, im giving teejay an award for creating a thread with legs.

[woof*]

Let's just be safe and say indigenous means the people and culture since we have been called the United States of America..and not get stupid about the previous people that have nothing to do with the conversation.

[mastrmindalliance]

Let's just be safe and say indigenous means the people and culture since we have been called the United States of America..and not get stupid about the previous people that have nothing to do with the conversation.

O.O ... do my eyes believe me?

In all my life i've never read a more tactless sentence.

"Previous people"? Indigenous means european immigrants or anything but indigenous? Be safe for the sake of debate?

Ridiculous.

[KB]

I see 2 key words in previous posts...allegiance and assimilate

My wife is Indian, by decent, but she was born and raised in Fiji as was her father and his father before him.

She considers herself as much an Aussie as myself these days and takes seriously her oath of citizenship to uphold the ways and customs of her adoptive home.

That does not mean she has lost any pride in her roots just that she has assimilated into our way of life.

Now all here Fijian (Indian) friends living in Australia are a completely different story.

They are all married to partners who are also Fijian Indian, who are also 3rd generation Fijians but who will never believe there is any culture worth living than one from a country most could not find on a map.

We have in fact had trouble with some that could not accept that my wife would choose to live as a Christian instead of a Hindi and this despite most of them having such a blurred understanding of Hinduism that most practice something that is a mix of both Hindi and Islam.

Ken

[dluddy]

I see 2 key words in previous posts...allegiance and assimilate

My wife is Indian, by decent, but she was born and raised in Fiji as was her father and his father before him.

She considers herself as much an Aussie as myself these days and takes seriously her oath of citizenship to uphold the ways and customs of her adoptive home.

That does not mean she has lost any pride in her roots just that she has assimilated into our way of life.

I think you hit on it KB.

[TeeJay]

I'm american. I live in Spain and am married. Have bought a house here and one day will probably raise a family here. So after 30 years of living of spain, and I identify myself as american I have a problem as well??

If you say yes.. I say f*** you. If you say no, I have no problem, then I ask.. Why do you hold me to a different standard than your Mexican friend you encountered in the street?

p.s. Are you "indigenous" Freddy? Last I checked.. immigrants that came to America hardly EVER assimilated to the established "indigenous" population we had in the states. Starting as far back as christopher columbus and the pilgrims.

I think what Freddy was referring to, is not so much one particular guy maintaining fond feelings in his birth country, but the issue of some immigrants who move to a country, make no attempt to integrate into the local culture, refuse to learn the language, and who still try and behave like 'back in the Old Country'. (Freddy, apologies in advance if I misunderstood your sentiment)

Also, while I acknowledge your point about the Native Americans, as I mentioned before, there is only so far back someone can refer to 'indigenous' without being intentionally disingenuous. America was built by people traveling away from their home nations, to build something better. Any of their descendants, for the sake of discussion, can be referred to as 'indigenous Americans'. It would be the same kind of deliberate pedantry to insist a 21st Century white native-born Britain define himself as a Celt, a Dane, a Norman, a Roman, or a Saxon, rather than as 'indigenous British'. While it might be accurate, it is unnecessarily so, and would miss the point of the discussion. For the record, I loosely describe myself as 1/4 Welsh, 1/4 British (Possibly of Saxon extraction) 1/2 British (Austrian Jewish descent circa 1940s), but, if I wanted to go far enough back, that 1/4 British is actually descended from what is now called Algeria (Dad's paternal family traces it's roots back to St Augustine) So by 'definition', I could be classed as other than 'indigenous British', but it would be a pretty far stretch of the imagination for anyone to take such classification seriously, and I can't see an Algerian passport arriving in the post any time soon

[plaifender]

To me sounds like Freddy might be hinting to a similar point that David Starkey brought up the day before yesterday. His rationalization is dumb and based on nothingness. He says that the white culture has made the mistake of embrassing black culture through music and style and this has led to the riots. I'm guessing some of you might probabaly agree with him. What he doesn't admit, is that political themes in music have existed forever. The Who, The Sex Pistols.. I mean come on. There's no way that this riot can be boiled down to black culture becoming popular. His argument seems to suggest that white people are even more peaceful. Stupid if you ask me.

[woof*]

O.O ... do my eyes believe me?

In all my life i've never read a more tactless sentence.

"Previous people"? Indigenous means european immigrants or anything but indigenous? Be safe for the sake of debate?

Ridiculous.

?

I have no clue of what your talking about. I have no intention to offend, and if you were I am sorry.

I was refering to this statement, and others.. that have nothing to do with the thread topic or modern culture.

"I'm sure American Indians and Australian Aboriginals see the irony"

[maxman]

@Teejay.. Epic thread bra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRGd0gD0QNE

[TeeJay]

To me sounds like Freddy might be hinting to a similar point that David Starkey brought up the day before yesterday. His rationalization is dumb and based on nothingness. He says that the white culture has made the mistake of embrassing black culture through music and style and this has led to the riots. I'm guessing some of you might probabaly agree with him. What he doesn't admit, is that political themes in music have existed forever. The Who, The Sex Pistols.. I mean come on. There's no way that this riot can be boiled down to black culture becoming popular. His argument seems to suggest that white people are even more peaceful. Stupid if you ask me.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't call it black culture, as not every black guy in the world is into bling, treating his hoes badly, and wearing pants three sizes too large I would agree that rap culture is rather misogynistic and aggressive, and I would agree that the people who emulate it (whatever ethnicity they may be) do take on those undesirable traits (I also acknowledge that the areas where many of the artists involved grew up, were not the most pleasant, so that is where that aggression and hostility comes from. Not saying it's right, but not saying it's their fault either...) I'm not sure if I would agree that rap culture is responsible for rioting and looting though. I would certainly agree that it holds up a certain lifestyle where wealth and prestige are not just present, but present in excess and flaunted, and there are many in the world who see that excess being flaunted, and they want it for themselves, but they don't want to work for it. But. I wouldn't say that the music and the videos themselves are directly responsible for the way the people then choose to act, that is just down to poor parenting, and some serious impulse-control issues

@Teejay.. Epic thread bra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRGd0gD0QNE

If only that had been my intention

[freddy333]

Again, this is an issue of pathology within culture, not race. This culture of pathology affects whites, blacks, browns, etc. Not quite sure how this keeps being confused with pride, which is not the issue (I am referring to) at all.

Until the 1970s, the vast majority of people who came to the great melting pot that is the USA came to become Americans. Ask any US senior citizen who emigrated to the US from Europe or Asia at the turn of the last century what nationality they are. Of course, the question is rhetorical, because nearly all would say 'American' & their country is the United States of America. And these people would have said the same thing the day they received their citizenship. Sadly, that is no longer the norm, especially for people immigrating to the US (often illegally) through its southern border or the UK/EU from Muslim countries.

[plaifender]

Again, this is an issue of pathology within culture, not race. This culture of pathology affects whites, blacks, browns, etc. Not quite sure how this keeps being confused with pride, which is not the issue (I am referring to) at all.

Until the 1970s, the vast majority of people who came to the great melting pot that is the USA came to become Americans. Ask any US senior citizen who emigrated to the US from Europe or Asia at the turn of the last century what nationality they are. Of course, the question is rhetorical, because nearly all would say 'American' & their country is the United States of America. And these people would have said the same thing the day they received their citizenship. Sadly, that is no longer the norm, especially for people immigrating to the US (often illegally) through its southern border or the UK/EU from Muslim countries.

Freddy, you reminisce as if you grew up in the early 1900's. You are partly right in your assumption that the willingness of immigrants to LATCH on to the "Americanness" of their life was of greater importance in the early 20th century and late 19th. But this is VERY contextual and specific to the times. You have to realize, that despite the "great american" continent that you think of right now, it was by all measures of policy, the absolute, most racist [developed] country in the modern world.

Anything that was against the protestant white males norms of society was considered inferior, and there were usually laws to enforce the inferiority. If laws weren't in place rampant violence was used to create fear among minority and immigrant populations. The overwhelming population of Irish immigrants were received with boos and rotten vegetables thrown at them. The italians received the same type of welcome on a large scale. Violence against asians was common place starting from the beginning of their arrival in the mid 19th century. Immigrants were almost ALWAYS denied proper legal means in the courts of justice. It goes without saying that blacks and immigrants from spanish and french carribean countries were treated as second class citizens. The common history learned by most high school history books is extremely sugar-coated. If you've ever studied contextual history, you'd realize how bad the time really were.

I'm not saying this to take on an extreme view, but without this context it's impossible to understand the mentality of the immigrants in which you mention. As the underpriveledged and minority society in America, assimilation was their only defense. Having your home country's pride could mean life or death in certain situations, violence or peace in others, or hunger or starvation in others. The immigrant life was often one of ambiguity for those that could pass in society as "native" americans. Of course they proudly called themselves americans. The climate was so stigmatizing by default, that immigrants lost many aspects of their own culture. Languages were often the first things to go. Immigrants had children and refused to speak anything but english to them. Nowadays, it's the opposite, it's considered a great disadvantage to your child if you don't speak to him in your mother tongue.

We live in a much more pluralistic society now, where it's acceptable to embrace your "non-american" traits. They're what make us different.

All in all, I somewhat agree with you freddy, but without taking into account the historical contexts, we can't accurately assess the state of current affairs in immigrant communities.

If you'd like any citations on my infomation, i'd be more than happy to give them to you. Like I said, I'm writing my thesis on immigrant immigration and it's a very complex and multi-faceted subject that is easy to mis-identify and incorrectly assess. Principally because of politicians, and secondly because of horrible and often-times incorrect high school history books.