southcoast68 Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Hi all I know many folks hate Pay-Pal for their "business" practices, I myself have never had a problem with them, but reading the story at the link below angered me. Apparently, what was done is actually stated in P-P's terms of service, but still... http://www.regretsy....the-mailbag-27/ If you don't already hate P-P, this may make you hate them!!! Be careful out there 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobster Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 That is very poor form. I believe they should request the buyer to get independent verification of whether something IS or IS NOT what it ought to be before destroying it. Very sad story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 That's just sick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highoeyazmuhudee Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 this is almost hard to believe. i cant imagine the liability if they explicitly tell you to destroy something and you hurt your self in the process, on the other hand... they do have deep deep pockets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFree Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I for one am very happy with PayPal. I have never run into a problem using their service and I have been with them over ten years. If you are a buyer PayPal is wonderful, not so much if you are a seller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest abasf Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 wouldnt they have to respect the paypal dispute first before destroying the item... the seller can them show proof of authentication during the dispute Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCorvette Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'm having trouble with Ebay/PayPal right now. I have a P-E-R-F-E-C-T record.. I've had and maintained that record for 6 years. I've never had a single complaint launched against me as buyer or seller. I just had 9 auctions end on Ebay on the 31st (dec), and 1st of Jan. Anyway about $650 of sales and when I go to draw my money out of PayPal.. my funds are on HOLD for 21 days!!!! I have not been a High volume guy.. generally I will sell or buy 4-10 items per year. Anyway.. Ebay's policy now is to put your money on Hold if you have less than 25 sales. I found it difficult to believe that I hadn't already passed that milestone.. So I called Cust Service.. The Ebay CS rep told me I had 18 transactions as a seller.. over $2100 in sales. My buying has been even higher.. over $4000.. Regardsless of my perfect record and $6000 of buying and selling I was told "tough sh#@" essentially on getting my money released. That's not the end of it ... tommorow I will be calling Ebay CS again.. my count was 18 sales.. after the 9 auctions I just completed my total is now showing 22 sales ... obviously 18 + 9 is 27.. beyond the "funds on hold" limit.... Im not being credited with my proper amount of sales and Ebay is collecting interest on my money. I've decided from now on that I'm going to do as much business as I can on my Amazon acct.... it's cheaper, less headache.. less Ebay/PayPal trechery to navigate in the form of self serving policies and excessive fees. Ebay/PayPal are the largest.. I shop'em for deals .. but I hate their fees and policies, No business with any sense docs a customers credit rating after they've been perfect for 6 years.. unless they are just plain stupid. Ebay has alway had the stench of self service in their policies.. this last blow is sending me after greener pastures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Selling on amazon isn't cheap. And you are mandated a 60 day return policy. But the quality of customer is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 ... Ebay's policy now is to put your money on Hold if you have less than 25 sales. I found it difficult to believe that I hadn't already passed that milestone.. So I called Cust Service.. The Ebay CS rep told me I had 18 transactions as a seller.. over $2100 in sales. My buying has been even higher.. over $4000.. Regardsless of my perfect record and $6000 of buying and selling I was told "tough sh#@" essentially on getting my money released. This is such a crazy policy. All you need to get around it is have some friends buy a bunch of 99 cent items to falsely drive up your sales. Good to know, I think I am a little short on sales, so I will be having some people I know buy some 'trinkets' before I list a high value item. What ever happened to Google's attempt at this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jellytots Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Paypal is biased towards the buyer. If youre a seller and some POS decides to scam you then you're screwed. Your account will be suspended while they 'investigate' the claim against you. No apologies for holding your money for more than 3 weeks even if you're innocent. (null) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Paypal is biased towards the buyer. If youre a seller and some POS decides to scam you then you're screwed. I have had this happen a couple of times, in fact my account is still dead from the last scammer. The first time the guy took me for $1100 worth of suits, he simply stated not as described over 3 Months after purchase. I asked PP how he could even start a claim more than 45 days after purchase and they said he lodged through his credit card (up to 120 days), so I got all the info together, I found out through a friend in homeland security that the buyer was a petty thief and that the name on the CC was an alias, I also pointed out he had made no attempt nor was interested in returning the goods...and I lost. PP simply said it was out of their hands because it was his CC provider, but at the same time they obviously didn't bother to pass on any of the info I gave them. The most recent one was from a member called 410 he put in a large order and 2 bags arrived damaged, I gave him two options to fix including to pay to ship them back and replace them, he wanted instead $1000 worth of goods to make himself right, I said no so he started a PP dispute. Some idiot a PP debited my account and paid him back in full then to cover his tracks claimed I was given a tracking number and goods were returned. Well they are still trying to get me to put the account back in the black but I keep asking them to show me the tracking number Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FDG Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 PayPal is a b$%ch. I usually am very happy with PayPal, especially for watch buying. I bought an tourbillon watch from mattias, we made the deal that I pay $150 upfront and when I like the watch I pay another $150. It was a damn good deal since it was an IWC tourbillon worth about 600 - 700. After payment I got a picture of the shipment, but with my adress misspelled. So he fixed it in time and he would sent it from germany the next day. After that, no more emails from him. About 3 weeks later I got an email from another adress saying he had been busted for illegal activities. I started an PayPal claim right away and 10 days later I got my money. On the other hand, I bought a computer hardware part, but it arrived factory damaged so useless. Seller refused to exchange/refund so paypal dispute. Then PayPal just said: We cant help you, we can't judge QUALITY. Seriously? They also said it didn't have buyer protection because it was purchased not on eBay/Marktplaats. Well I did buy it trough the marktplaats website which has you covered up till 200 euros. For selling I always ask for gift option, that way they don't have whine-rights. And best part: no fees for PayPal. So PayPal is just a [censored], they do whatever they like. And don't start about the fees, it makes us all cry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Pay Pal and Ebay management are no better that bottom feeders. Just low scum. Whoever was responsible for granting this non bank, the banking powers they have without any controls, must have been in receipt of some substantial backhanders. The whole set up of Pay Pal and Ebay needs immediate review by regulators, and at VERY LEAST, they need to come under the auspices of the Banking Ombudsman......Who probably would be horrified to think they had to try and regulate this bunch of thieves. At least the employment numbers at the Ombudsman would rise substantially, as they would be totally inundated with horror stories of misappropriated funds. But I'll bet the authorities are already ducking for cover, and I'm damn sure we will never find out who copped the backhanders to grant these thieves access to millions! Nup...I don't like 'em much either Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wat44 Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 has anyone used Moneygram as an alternative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FDG Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 has anyone used Moneygram as an alternative? They are even worse. If the seller scams you, bye bye money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wat44 Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 okay - so wat is the best solution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 okay - so wat is the best solution? Depends on who you want protected. I posted in another thread, that more and more watch sales on the GEN forums are asking for Bank-Bank Wire Transfers. No (significant) fees, and all 'good faith' between buyer and seller. However, in our little "Hobby" I am not sure this is an option unless it is between true friends on the forum. The other option is PayPal "Money Owed / Gift". This makes it another 'good faith' transaction as there is no buyer protection. This is banned on some FS Forums, but I don't know why given it is really no different than a wire transfer, cash deal, or god forbid Western Union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Whoever was responsible for granting this non bank, the banking powers they have without any controls, must have been in receipt of some substantial backhanders wait a minute, are you saying lack of regulation is bad? nahhh Those guys spend TONS of money to fly under the regulation radar and to lobby in D.C. so the regulatory reforms never get out of committees. Welcome to free market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCorvette Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Depends on who you want protected. I posted in another thread, that more and more watch sales on the GEN forums are asking for Bank-Bank Wire Transfers. If Fraud is committed using a Bank Wire Transfer it is a Federal Offense under 18 U.S.C. ... It's a good method to use because the investigator if any funny business goes on will be a Federal Agent and the threat of a Federal Crime looms over any would be schiesters. It's an added "big stick" to keep people honest. I've used bank wires for this reason many times. It's the only method I use on higher value items. Similar to telling your kids ... "No pranks involving mailboxes"... it's a federal offense. Edited January 10, 2012 by OldCorvette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFree Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 The last time I made a high value purchase on a forum I flew overseas to meet the seller. I will not make high value buys online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Should we be brainstorming some ideas as recommendations to minimize the risk? I suppose it's also a handbook for scammers. Or should we create a paypal horror stories thread so others can figure out their own risk management ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wat44 Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 i think in time, the dealers wont accept ppal - there will be too many clowns wrecking it for everyone with chargebacks for member to member: a) ppal protects buyer, not seller moneygram/wu/banktransfer protects seller, not buyer so we need a half-way measure between a and b I propose an insurance scheme ala Lloyds of London where members underwrite other members they trust eg say me and 9 others trust Offshore - we all agree that if Offshore sells a watch to KB for $300 and then he just buys lots of scotch and never sends the watch, then KB claims on his insurance of say 90% of $300 - we send $27 each to KB obviously, sellers who are respected and trusted and had history wont have that much trouble attracting underwriters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 If Fraud is committed using a Bank Wire Transfer it is a Federal Offense under 18 U.S.C. ... It's a good method to use because the investigator if any funny business goes on will be a Federal Agent and the threat of a Federal Crime looms over any would be schiesters. It's an added "big stick" to keep people honest. I've used bank wires for this reason many times. It's the only method I use on higher value items. Similar to telling your kids ... "No pranks involving mailboxes"... it's a federal offense. so look at this scenario: I have a gen Omega PO and a franken. I use the gen to post ad pictures on some forum but I send you a franken. At first you can't really tell but then when you try to send to service you learn you have been had. Then you come after me with the Feds to get your money back. It happens that I have "documented" that I have shipped you the gen PO, down to pictures showing me packing and labeling (the same label I sent you as tracking with signature) the watch. However what I did was actually replace the watch before actually shipping. Now you go, take me to court and win based on my word against yours. I can claim you made the switch and you are trying to scam me. I'll be then the one sending the Feds after you. In theory all the laws and regulations look good until you have to actually prove something. Believe me financial institutions go thru a LOT of cost to document and prosecute fraud. Do you think the Feds will go after a $3K maybe bank wire fraud? Sorry to burst your bubble but you will be out of not only the original scam but also court costs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wat44 Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 that is a very tricky scenario - I would never buy a gen over the net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 One major drawback to this and any other scheme involving this forum or any other though wat! The forums try desperately to not be involved in the mechanics of any sales as this then makes them a target. Some years back we kicked around the idea of operating as an escrow service, to vet sales and make sure buyer and seller got a fair shake, but you have to understand that everyone working on the forums is doing so in a voluntary capacity, and no one needs the heat that becoming involved in the (illegal) sale of a rep watch would bring. Even being a conduit as an escrow means the parties are aiding and abetting the (illegal) transaction. And if anyone was a party to insuring an (illegal) transaction, I believe they would be equally culpable. Nice idea, but unfortunately won't happen. Now, if someone was to set up an escrow service as a commercial undertaking, that would be a different matter, but they would find themselves under the same microscope as the dealers. Pass for me! Which is why I set up selling LEGAL tools~! Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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