RWG Technical Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Random thoughts about where we have been, and where were going with replica’s… If we have not reached the pinnacle of quality of replica’s, I have a feeling it’s right around the corner… I say this while thinking about just how far we have come in the past 24 months (I joined the original RWG on October 14, 2004). This is what I remember about how much things have changed for us – for the better… I sincerely think we will not get it any better than we have it today, regarding quality of the reps we can buy, the reliability and consistency and honesty of our dealers, and the help from forum members. Here is a short version of but a couple of changes I have seen…if you don’t know where we were, you can’t appreciate where we are today… 2005 – first part of the new year… PAM’s are just starting to get popular, I buy the latest model – a Titanium 118 with a see-through case back… it has a ETA 6497-1 for power, with the “wrong shaped bridges” and of course the stuck on foil with the “Panerai” engravings… The crown is “ok” but the CG lever is thin and crappy… This is the best of the best rep at that time, looking at it today, it would be considered a joke and so crappy as to not even warrant being worn… Over the next few months, we wonder and think about how nice it would be to have a movement with anything even close to the genuine PAM shaped bridges… And then the impossible happens, we get a movement in with modified bridges, in the shape of a Genuine PAM, and we are so excited for this dramatic turn of events in the rep world… But…….. the fever dies down, as this new movement - although looking like a genuine one - does not have a “Swan Neck” fine regulator…so we sit back and wonder and hope … “ Sure it has the correct bridges, and engravings, but look at that missing Swan Neck regulator…” Fast forward a few months, and wouldn’t you know it, someone comes out with a movement, that not only has the correct bridges, but WOW, it also has a Swan Neck regulator…Yea!! There is joy on the forums, and the people rejoiced and feasted on the lams and the yews…oops that’s not actually true… The last vestige of rep-dome has been reached, correct bridges, and now a Swan Neck regulator… But alas, all is not as it seems… since this swan neck regulator – while looking real – does not actually work…so we sit and sulk again…”those rep makers, what is wrong with them, can’t they get anything right….” Well wouldn’t you know it, more time passes, and next thing you know, we have a functioning Swan Neck regulator, correct Panerai style bridges, and …….. just as we think we have it all, our chins drop down again… now the printing on the bridges “Panerai” is not EXACTLY the right size…Sigh… The dealers must be listening to us, and be willing and able to initiate changes, otherwise we would still have the standard wrong bridges ETA 6497 with the stuck on foil plates. Look at the changes on this movement alone… This is but one example of many… If you don’t know the history, you can’t appreciate the amazing watches we have today… PAM 188 circa 2005… Date: February 2005, a new PAM is shown, a beautiful 188, with a 7750 (modified to look like a 7753) and the people rejoice, “Yes, look at this beauty…yea!!” I jump on the bandwagon, order mine from TTK, and sure enough, it shows up 3 weeks later imbedded in a Haggis and I am so excited…what a beauty… Well, the excitement fades for some when these posts start showing up, “the dial is too silver in colour, it should be white, the subdials are not recessed, and look at that stupid datewheel location, it’s too far from the dial, and not like the genuine one…” So again, the dealers step up to the plate, and amazingly the unbelievable happens, the dealers get Genuine ETA 7753’s, correct the dial flaws, print it in white – with recessed subdials – and send them out…here we have the IDENTICAL movement, correct dial etc, but what it this?? Oh no, not again…the datewheel font is bad, the hands are not as crisp edged as the genuine one…etc … Some complain about the price but don’t consider that a Genuine 7753 from ETA is $500 or more (if you can even source one…). Since ETA 7753’s are so scarce, the availability of these models quickly dries up…those that got them, are very lucky indeed…(wish I had gotten one for myself…). PAM GMT, PR models: 2005-2006 If you thought you couldn’t get any better than this, next up is this wonderful run of PAM’s with genuine ETA movements in them, that duplicate the real ones to a “T”…wow, simply unbelievable. The GMT models have a ETA 2893-2 in them, just like the genuine ones, and they are extremely well made… The PR model, with the “soprano” (spelling) Power Reserve bridge and module is virtually identical to the genuine, and it also sells out quickly… These needed very little in ways of mods to make them even better, other than poor lume, they are amazingly accurate. Those that got one of these models have keepers for sure, and although the price was high for the watches, taking into account the cost of the movement alone, your only paying about 20% of the cost for the actual watch, as the market price on these movements (if you can even find one) is 80% or more of the asking price of the whole watch…exceptional deal. What’s my point The dealers must be listening to our comments, or nothing would have changed during the past 2 years. Sure our watches have various “flaws”, but in my mind, that is what makes them unique and wonderful… So what if there are minor flaws, given what we have in terms of quality, and availability, I couldn’t be happier with what I have bought. So what does the future hold? The 7753 powered models have come and gone, the 2893 and 2892 models with the PR indicator, are also gone…why were these great watches short lived? I think the key issue is the movements… Ever thought about where the movements come from… There are only so many surplus or extra movements available on the open market, have a look at www.ofrei.com site and see what Bob carries, he’s been in the business for years and yet, with his connections, he is limited to buying “Surplus” ETA movements on the open market. He can’t get anything from ETA… There is a larger demand for quality movements than are available movements on the market… I think the times are changing and we will continue to see less and less models with ETA movements in them…I am not saying this is good or bad, but reality… I also think that the quality of the actual reps have or are about to reach the peak. How much better can they be?? I can still buy ETA movements from my supplier, Surplus ones (Silver in colour) and Genuine From the ETA Factory ones (at 2X the price of the surplus ones, Gold plated, as all Gold coloured ETA’s are from ETA). Other than the ETA 7753, I can also source any and all spare parts for the ETA movements we have in our reps. Ok, so what about the Asian models we are being offered…ETA is not going to sell outside Swatch Group after 2009…what happens to us then?? I have always supported the use of Asian movements in our reps, that is if they are well made (given regular maintenance, all movements will last a lifetime – even Asian ones). Regular maintenance is not restricted to Asian movements, ETA Swiss movements need regular maintenance as well…maybe not initially, but certainly in the long run. For the most part the Asian movements are very good quality, the only problem being that of spare parts…there are none available, not only that, but you can’t buy any spare movements to part out for spare parts… This has been and will continue to be a problem, I wonder if once ETA stops selling, will the supply houses like Otto-Frei carry Seagull movements and parts??? I hope so… What does the future hold??? Of course we will never be satisfied, as there will always be something that is not “right” with our reps, I consider this part of the lure of replica’s…but overall, I think it’s good to remember where and what we started with, in context to what we have available to us today… My examples are but only a small sampling of the improvements we have had over the past couple of years. From where I sit, there has never been a better time than now for the quality and diversity of the watches we can buy. I for one, am buying what I want today, as I am afraid that this golden era of high quality reps will not last forever… We have seen the higher quality models show up and disappear as quick as they arrived (I still have my Omega 007 – you know the model, and those that have DW Daytona’s are not parting them out). I hope what we have today will continue and get better, but I fear that things are going to change in the next few years…maybe for the worse…especially when ETA stops selling movements… If you don’t know where we have been, it’s hard to appreciate where we are today… What do you think? RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaca22 Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) ..... Edited November 14, 2007 by vaca22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonthebhoy Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 A very valuable post Rob. As someone who is working at the coalface in terms of doing repairs or modifications on reps over the past years you will have a fairly good handle on what the evolution of reps is. I have a feeling this will be a very popular thread. JTB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Zig, Absolutely great post. I found this place just before you and was amazed at the quality THEN! Over the last couple of years we've seen such huge improvements in a wide variety of models that, frankly, I'm even more amazed. I find it funny that there are so many who nitpick what we have now. You know the one's I mean ("I can spot the flaws a block away"!!??). They should have been here a couple of years ago. This is the golden age and I can't wait to see the next year or so............before the crackdown on reps occur. It surely will at some point. Get 'em while they're hot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Zig, Absolutely great post. I found this place just before you and was amazed at the quality THEN! Over the last couple of years we've seen such huge improvements in a wide variety of models that, frankly, I'm even more amazed. I find it funny that there are so many who nitpick what we have now. You know the one's I mean ("I can spot the flaws a block away"!!??). They should have been here a couple of years ago. This is the golden age and I can't wait to see the next year or so............before the crackdown on reps occur. It surely will at some point. Get 'em while they're hot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisbailey86 Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Very good post, now i know where i have come from! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Well I am glad that reps are where they are now... I am definitely looking foward to recieving mine. I am sorry to hear you say that you that this is the hayday as that means it is downhill from somewhere in the near future... I have to wonder if it will be though... maybe it will be cyclical... counerfeiting has always been good business and I somehow don't see it changing... as long as we have capitalism, counterfeiting will have it's appeal. Capitalism drives people to charge a premium, it is also what drives people to make counterfeits (to capitalize on the premium charging gens) and what drives the counterfeiters to make better quality fakes... As quality rises, so does general interest, the fanbase broadens until it becomes passe or grows so big it has to be quashed. It dies an ugly death and is reborn years later when it's no longer hip for whoever does the hammering to hammer on that particular kind of counterfeiting anymore. I don't know... I don't have nearly the experience in rep watches to really talk a lot of talk, but in general that's what I have seen in the world. I hope that reps continue for quite a while and contiue at the quality they are at, but bearing that in mind I won't be holding my wallet quite as tightly for fear of missing out on something I like before it's gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 ETA is not going to sell outside Swatch Group after 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Thank you The Zigmeister for this extremely well written, informative and valuable post. Bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonskeder Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) The Zigmeister: Super post! I know you are to modest to say it so I will. It is because of guys like yourself that we enjoy the high quality we have. You have been a "go to guy" since I first heard of reps. Your knowledge that you have passed on to us has made a huge difference in the data base of quality. Your reputation and work ethic has long spoken for itself. I think that the days of having a rep heavily modded are closing fast. The quality we can get now just doesn't need the mods we used to have to do. There will IMOP always be a need for quality workmanship that you provide. Servicing, replacement parts ect ect. Thanks for all the work and dedication that you have given to all of us. John. PS: Waiting for the "near perfect" modern Sedweller that I know is right around the corner. I will have it sent to you for servicing and a relume job for sure. Thanks again, John. Edited November 2, 2006 by nonskeder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreww Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 In my opinion the time is right for rep makers to produce an Asian 7753 (not a modified 7750). Since ETA has stopped production of the genuine unit, there would likely be a market for an accurate replacement, or compatible parts. Imagine the accuracy improvement of our reps if we had an accurate 3-6-9 to put in them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omni Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Rob: Great observations. Quality swiss movement are on the wane due to scarcity, then the price for those will increase. The days of high quality reps will never end, a free market will always ferret them out, but due to the scarcity value, they will become priced at that point to where collectors will have to choose between a genuine and a rep. I believe the asians will make great strides to take up the slack with finer machined movements. They know a good market when they see one and will not let it disappear for lack of swiss movements. The asian movements will get better, take a look at the recent inexpensive tourbillons, I hear they are not far out from introducing a mass produced minute repeater. They will refine these movements to the quality that threatens the swiss exclusivity as time passes. There will be a down time when the swiss movements will still be the most desired in the reps. but that will pass. The future of reps will hold, same as all the other knockoff items that generate an economy for asia. The cases are getting better, the movements are following at a slower pace. Its not as disheartening as it sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Where do we go from here????? I asked in a post a few weeks ago that as the feedback channels between factory,dealer and consumer becomes more fluid and responsive, what rep buyers would like to see in the next generation of replicas. The majority of responses had to do with AR coating and dial luming. I hope, as the trend seems to be toward better movements from the in house Chinese companies, that our replicas powered by something other than ETA movements in the future will be a moot point. I agree with you that if we aren't at the pinacle of replica quality and availability, then we certainly must be close. Although this notion was laughed off as not possible by some, I suggested that this communication line between devoted consumer (and anyone willing to shell out $300 for a fake Omega is a passionate buyer) and manufacturer seems to be paying off in another level of ever more numerous 1-1 copies and that some day, the next step might be OEM interchangeability in a few more reps than just the MBW Subs. But, a cloud of foreboding is hanging over this. The Swatch/ETA pullout, the desire of the Chinese to be an above board player on the capitalistic marketplace, and the paranoia of getting these beautiful somethings for next to nothing, etc. leaves me feeling less than hopeful for any long term prospects for this upper end replica market. Get em while you can guys and gals. With the help of RWG and you Rob, I have made sure I have invested in only the best reps available in terms of replication and servicability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltatahoe Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 great post rob - well written and thought out as always. it's good to see you posting more lately; you are a real asset to this community. dt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dachshund Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 The Zigmeister As usual, well thought out and well said, thanks. I signed on at TRC in August of 03 and although we have come a long way in some areas, other reps seem to be no better than they were a few years ago, in fact I don't know if we will ever see a better rep of the 007 than appeared in late 03 or early 04. I'm fortunate enough to have won the TRC lottery for this watch right after it came out, still have it and would not part with it not only because it is still considered one of the best reps ever made but also because winning the TRC lottery. I also have the black Seamaster Pro that is well reguarded as reps go, from the old factory that was supposed to have been closed down. Even the older Rollies, especially the Datejust and the Sub were of good quality during that period, if you bothered to get the top of the line at the time. I have one of the older black Subs that I have modded myself and the only people that can pick it apart are the members of this community and other true WIS. I do think The Zigmeister is right, we are in the GOLDEN AGE OF REPS, but I personally think it started a little ahead of where he originally thought it was. I'm fortunate enough to own some really nice reps, and I own some others that are supposedly out dated, for instance one of the first Pam 111 from Eddie with the foil and wrong bridges, it still looks incredible from the front, short of top quality lume, and I put a solid back on it so now its a 001?,know what, its still a damn nice watch that I enjoy to this day. I'm not taking issue with Rob, I very muchly respect his opinion, I quess what I'm trying to say is that although some of our newest reps are quite accurate, the reps of a year or so back still offer a very good representation of the geniune and they themselves are a part of this GOLDEN AGE OF REPS, in fact some are or will be true collectors items. Yes unfortunaly, I have to agree, that in time (who knows how long), that thur a lack of supply of ETA movements and possible government pressure, that our reps will regress to lesser quality reps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellfell Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Random thoughts about where we have been, and where were going with replica’s… If we have not reached the pinnacle of quality of replica’s...... Dear friend sorry for my imperfect english, is a difficult to me to explain and for you to understand. I do not know if I have understood well that you have intentional to say but, if I have understood well, are not in agreement. I have followed for little the Reps world , have acquired something between the best ones (also a MBW) and think that your enthusiasm is not right. The Best Reps are, in my experience, watches for little moneies, badl made and crude. They are absolutely not similar to the GEN. I do not want “the perfect rep” , not, but at least one rep decent, acceptable. If rep costs $ 300 I want that it has the quality of a normal watch $ 300. Instead my opinion is that the reps (the best reps that I have buyed, as MBW 1665, the last daytona Val second at six, the sub solid gold/triple wrapped etc.) have a real value of little dollars, the rest is the gain of the Chinese. The Chinese sells reps always new and is real that the last one is better than that old one, but old and new are always poor poor miserable thinks . Do you see reps? Have you eyes? Is it possible that a man that have eyes do not see that reps are misery? For having rep NOT PERFECT BUT DECENT is necessary to acquire and to replace many parts with original parts and the cost is not worth the game. I begin to go away from the world of the reps..... An answer, please to a capital question: the watches more loved from the friends of the reps are the Sub and the Panerai, ( I think it from the great number of post dedicates to forum members to purchase and modification of Sub and Panerai). In Italy a good good Sub used, if you buy it into a hig quality watch jewelry whit warranty, have a price of euro 3000. Panerai used costs euro 2000/2500. (SEE IT ------> www.eora.it ) If you have not the money, is possible to buy it whit rateal payment (rateal payment = for euro 3000 you pay euro 100 for 36 months, or euro 75 for 48 months etc....). My question is: if you love and love and love the Sub (or the Panerai), why not purchases it GEN ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Great Post Rob,... it makes me appreciate even more being here and now.. I also want to thank you for your well documented advice through the years,.. especially your positive reviews of Asian movements, which has saved me a ton of money, by allowing me to purchase them verses eta. I can also state for the record, that you were never wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 @fellfell I see what you are a saying but considering what $200-500 gets me at my local stores reps don't seem too overpriced... For an automatic with decent quality and nice finish at all (even one that doesn't say a famous name) it is not cheap at a store. Of course some price goes to shipping and everyone in the process must make money, so some profits... So yes there is some markup and profit like any other business (in this business quite big markup but it's a relatively small market and somewhat dangerous). I agree that at very low prices the crappy watches may indeed be the best value for the $ becuase you still get a functioning watch for very few $$$ but if that was the desire we would go to our local stores and buy Timex waches for $10. I think part of the value you pay for in reps is indeed having the brand name, as silly as that may be in some lights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 That Rob was just another of your very long line of excellent posts, it's starting to get to the point where they cease to amaze me and are becoming more and more expected. Right there is a very strong reason why our rep's have in fact evolved so quickly, I remember when Davidsen first turned up he told us that yes the factories do in fact moniter these forums for suggestion to improve their replica watches, but the guy that commanded their respect the most was none other than our very own Ziggy Zumba. Thanks Rob. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRG Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Truly a great post The Zigmeister, thanks. Gives me a very good perspective of where we are today not having grown up with the 'industry', only coming to the rep scene recently. You said: 'will the supply houses like Otto-Frei carry Seagull movements and parts??? I hope so?' I thought they already did carry some? Cousins here in the UK seem to have a very good selection... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 I joined in March of 05 when the pam craze was in full swing. Was around for nearly a year before i got the news of my first son and had to cut the $$ But between the time i cut off, and came back - WOW lots of other models had come into full swing high quality. Esp breitling GT _ which i'm very happy about. I have learned so much in my time, when to buy, when to wait, what to look for. Where to find value. and i have had primarily excellent relationships with our dealers. I agree with The Zigmeister and might i ad - we are lucky to also have someone like him who works with our watches. Someone who doesn't need the income and someone who gives up their private time in order to work on our stuff and mod and make them better than before. That, to me, is one of the most valuable things we have here. Good People, Good Products, Good Times. i also learned that you hvae to jump on opportunities when they come along cause sometime they don't come back Like a nice dragon pen for instance plug plug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Some excellent food for thought, and as always a fantastic read! Hind sight is 20/20; to see how far the industry has come in a very short period of time is amazing! And, it's important to look back at the progress to understand how fortunate we are today to have such nice pieces that are oft times taken for granted. It makes one appreciate what we have available now. Thanks for the great read, and the perspective! All the best... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Great read and some interesting points. I have tended to stick to ETA movements mostly, and was lucky (more like crazy!) enough to get the PAM029 and PAM063 with the GMT ETA 2893-2 movements; the PAM028 with the ETA2892 with Sopras module; and the PAM188 and PAM196 (both old and better cased models) with ETA 7753 movements. There are others of course, and this forum got me into PAMs and losing a lot of money I'm hoping the Asian movement quality will improve immeasurably. I have an Asian movement IWC GST Chrono (though I may replace it with an ETA 7750), PAM192, an Asian movement Xemex (courtesy of Narikaa) and a Silix Franck Muller Vegas. Just like it seems like titanium watches are being phased out, so may ETA movement based watches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromodora Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) This one I could call a The Zigmeister timemachine! Great post Rob! You got the point and reading posts thru these years I had an impression that some of us...most of us sometimes forget that we are dealing with reps here and that we get some fantastic timepieces for a fraction of a retail price of genuine.Minor flaws will be always there...just to remind us what are we dealing with....but comparing that with my pleasure of wearing it it is it is non essential. Edited November 2, 2006 by cromodora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportsPg Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Rob, nice post. You make me want to buy all the top models on my list before replica armageddon occurs. If I do so, will you mediate between my better half and I? She is a fantastic woman, but just doesn't get the watch thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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