Apmlitude issue - need help from experts

[Rastko]

Hi all,

I have received QC pics few hours ago for two Hublot's I ordered and having little knowledge from couple of forum sites

noticed following data is not good:

First watch:

rate: 000 s/d

amplitude: 202°

beat error: 0,3 ms

* for this watch I have ordered full service from dealer

Second watch:

rate: 007 s/d

amplitude: 328°

beat error: 0,0 ms

They should have amplitude in range of 270-310?

Both watches have Asian 7750 Valjoux Chronograph.

After sending my complaint to dealer here is the answer:

" Sir,

I don't think you are a qualified watchsmith to say that. Amplitude of above 300 is always good. The number is easily increased by doing more winds via the crown also. The most important thing is the top reading of the deviation! Thanks

Thanks for confirming the QC pics and we will arrange to send out the order for you ASAP. Please do check your online account status on our website for tracking number and other updates. Thank you"

Before this I received two other watches from him and everything was ok. I still have some faith and therefore I| didint put his name aslthough he is one of top rated dealers here.

What should I do now???

Thanks for any answer,

R.

[Adeodatus]

Frankly speaking I'd ask for both watches changed. The one with 328 is somewhat acceptable, if they can't find a better one, but the 202 is definitely no-go. definitely.

I don't think you are a qualified watchsmith to say that.

oh, my... :sigh:

someone needs a slap on the nose.

What's up with our dealers lately?

[FxrAndy]

202 is way too low

[Rolexman]

The dealer is partially right. The amplitude indeed can be increased by winding the movement. Reading of the variables (inc. amplitude) should only be done with the movement fully wound in order to draw the right conclusions. If the watch would be fully wound giving of only 202 degrees that would be a bad sign. I doubt this is the case though. The person taking the QC pics probably didn't give the watch a full wind. Higher amplitude also causes a deviation in rate. They probably wanted to show the 0 sec/day rating on the picture so they didn't gave it a full wind. So fully wound it will probably have the right amp but it will not get the 0 seconds a day rating. It will probably run faster. I never encountered a new 7750 rep with an amp below 250.

[Justasgood]

The dealer is partially right. The amplitude indeed can be increased by winding the movement. Reading of the variables (inc. amplitude) should only be done with the movement fully wound in order to draw the right conclusions. If the watch would be fully wound giving of only 202 degrees that would be a bad sign. I doubt this is the case though. The person taking the QC pics probably didn't give the watch a full wind. Higher amplitude also causes a deviation in rate. They probably wanted to show the 0 sec/day rating on the picture so they didn't gave it a full wind. So fully wound it will probably have the right amp but it will not get the 0 seconds a day rating. It will probably run faster. I never encountered a new 7750 rep with an amp below 250.

Correct and rate adjustments should be made at half wind as well perhaps giving the lower amplitude rate.

I wouldn't trust dealers for a service. I would buy knowing that Zig or another competent watchmaker would need to give it a once over.

[Watchmeister]

Correct and rate adjustments should be made at half wind as well perhaps giving the lower amplitude rate.

I wouldn't trust dealers for a service. I would buy knowing that Zig or another competent watchmaker would need to give it a once over.

That is where I come out. I look for a reasonable secs per day but even that doesn't faze me. If I like what I got aestheitcally and the watch is running reasonably I send it out for a once over on the movement.

[freddy333]

Correct and rate adjustments should be made at half wind as well perhaps giving the lower amplitude rate.

I wouldn't trust dealers for a service. I would buy knowing that Zig or another competent watchmaker would need to give it a once over.

Ditto. An amplitude below 260 may be due to insufficient charge of the mainspring or a dirty movement, but 200-ish may indicate a problem with the balance/hairspring.

[Rastko]

Thank to all of you.

Dealer replied that he will adjust the amplitude on watch with low one (202) and that 328 is quite fine??

I am not satisfied with that answer, but what can I do now?

Payment is done!

I can only hope that everything will be fine when reps arrived as in my country there is no watchsmith to overlook it and make proper service.

Thanks again,

R.

[maxman]

That is where I come out. I look for a reasonable secs per day but even that doesn't faze me. If I like what I got aestheitcally and the watch is running reasonably I send it out for a once over on the movement.

Exactly Watchmeister...I have purchased many a7750's over the years...and for the most part they keep reasonable good time otb. But if one wants there movement at full potential....having It serviced Is the only way to go.

Mike

[Rolexman]

Dealer replied that he will adjust the amplitude on watch with low one (202) and that 328 is quite fine??

I am not satisfied with that answer, but what can I do now?

Why not? Just relax. If it is a trusted dealer here he will make sure it runs just fine.

[Adeodatus]

I really do not understand your responses, guys. Why would a buyer accept a watch that is definitely needs servicing? If the buyer wants to service it, fine, but why would he get a watch that is problematic in the first place?! The dealer should find a better one in the first place, just like with any other issue, cosmetic or otherwise. Whould you approve a PO with incorrect bezel or dial - those can be changed later as well? I really don't understand the logic of this.

Edit: It's great that you service your watches left and right, but some people just don't have this luxury. Some people expect the product they buy to at least function properly upon arrival.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Adeodatus

[TeeJay]

I really do not understand your responses, guys. Why would a buyer accept a watch that is definitely needs servicing? If the buyer wants to service it, fine, but why would he get a watch that is problematic in the first place?! The dealer should find a better one in the first place, just like with any other issue, cosmetic or otherwise. Whould you approve a PO with incorrect bezel or dial - those can be changed later as well? I really don't understand the logic of this.

Because until all this QC pic bullshit started, people paid their money, got what they were given, and it was either occasionally DOA (and the dealer would replace it) or in the majority of instances, absolutely fine. Personally, I don't know, and equally don't care, what the watches I receive measure at on timeographs. As long as they run with reasonable (in or near COSC standard) accuracy, that's all that really matters to me, and when people want babying over what should be a simple transaction, it's a bit disheartening to see

[Watchmeister]

In my limited experience amplitude results from the dealers have never had an impact on how my watch runs. They either never bother to partially wind it prior to adjusting or fully wind it when testing. What I do know is that if it comes in the door and is not properly keeping time it is going back to the dealer And I never think twice about investing the $25 to ship it back to them.

[Adeodatus]

Because until all this QC pic [censored] started, people paid their money, got what they were given, and it was either occasionally DOA (and the dealer would replace it) or in the majority of instances, absolutely fine. Personally, I don't know, and equally don't care, what the watches I receive measure at on timeographs. As long as they run with reasonable (in or near COSC standard) accuracy, that's all that really matters to me, and when people want babying over what should be a simple transaction, it's a bit disheartening to see

The QC is there to protect the dealer as well as the buyer. No one wants to be sending the watches back and forth, especially for movement problems. Personally, I don't understand what is so simple about these transactions. The awkward processing or paying 400-600 hard earned $$ for a faulty product? People are buying reps not just because they are some pretty man jewelry, some actually need the watch running and showing correct time.

We all are obsessed by incorrect bezels, lugs, fonts, hands, you name it, but for some reason we accept being sent a watch with faulty movement.

if this watch is indeed fine, as some have stated here, the dealer should be able to demonstrate it easily. For his own sake, if not for the sake of his customer.

[TeeJay]

The QC is there to protect the dealer as well as the buyer. No one wants to be sending the watches back and forth, especially for movement problems. Personally, I don't understand what is so simple about these transactions. The awkward processing or paying 400-600 hard earned $$ for a faulty product? People are buying reps not just because they are some pretty man jewelry, some actually need the watch running and showing correct time.

We all are obsessed by incorrect bezels, lugs, fonts, hands, you name it, but for some reason we accept being sent a watch with faulty movement.

if this watch is indeed fine, as some have stated here, the dealer should be able to demonstrate it easily. For his own sake, if not for the sake of his customer.

I don't think you quite got the point I was making. 18 months - 2 years ago, there was only one Trusted Dealer (since burned out) who provided QC pics. Until then, people simply went on the sales pictures and emails to dealers. I wouldn't say that people were ever 'happy' about sending stuff back if there was an issue, but it was accepted as part of the risk of the game, and people accepted that status quo. The 16610 I got a few weeks back, I admit, had I seen QC pics (and not planned on converting the watch anyway) then if I was being anal on details, I could've always requested another piece, but the dealer I use doesn't supply them, and I've never asked for them. I guess what I'm saying, is that people who have been collecting for a while, are used to taking chances on purchasses, rather than having to have their hand held through the process, so can find people who do need that reassurance to be a bit needy/whiny/unrealistic in their expectations... There is nothing complex about the transactions, it's just like buying anything else online: Select/click/pay... If it doesn't work, sure, there's the hassle of a return, but chances of getting something DOA is slim, so no real risk, especially when going with Trusted Dealers

[kbh]

I'm with TeeJay. I hate the idea of people posting QC pictures and playing "spot the tells".

Also, now that I own a timegrapher I've seen how easy it is to manipulate the evidence. I've seen movements that read 180 degrees on one position and 270 on another. Some that show +70 sec/day on one position and 0 sec on another position (as it rolls around from plus or minus 20 seconds. It's just when you take the picture.) I've also seen there can be a huge difference in amplitude on older movements when they aren't fully wound. In short, although timegraphers don't lie but pictures often do.

And, you're a fool to believe that a movement is going to be within + or - a couple of seconds a day just because the picture in one position says so at one particular moment in time. Real life is a lot different.

[Rolexman]

I really do not understand your responses, guys. Why would a buyer accept a watch that is definitely needs servicing?

What makes you say that? If you read this thread carefully you would know 202 amp doesn't mean anything in this case. You are jumping to the conclusion that the watch needs service based on the variables of 1 time grapher picture. A picture that can show you anything the fotographer wants. They will probably give the watch some winds so that it's up to 300 amp, take a new picture and say they put in a new movement, gave it a new service, switched the watch with a new one or some other nonsense. Just because people don't know what they are talking about. They will eventually tell you anything your want to hear, just to make you happy....

Also, now that I own a timegrapher I've seen how easy it is to manipulate the evidence. I've seen movements that read 180 degrees on one position and 270 on another. Some that show +70 sec/day on one position and 0 sec on another position (as it rolls around from plus or minus 20 seconds. It's just when you take the picture.) I've also seen there can be a huge difference in amplitude on older movements when they aren't fully wound. In short, although timegraphers don't lie but pictures often do.

And, you're a fool to believe that a movement is going to be within + or - a couple of seconds a day just because the picture in one position says so at one particular moment in time. Real life is a lot different.

So very true. TG pics tell you nothing, only what the fotographer wants you to see.

[automatico]

"Because until all this QC pic [censored] started, people paid their money, got what they were given, and it was either occasionally DOA (and the dealer would replace it) or in the majority of instances, absolutely fine. Personally, I don't know, and equally don't care, what the watches I receive measure at on timeographs. As long as they run with reasonable (in or near COSC standard) accuracy, that's all that really matters to me, and when people want babying over what should be a simple transaction, it's a bit disheartening to see."

I agree with TJ.

It's true that 202 is a bit lazy but the watch may run Ok...who knows?

If no one knew...

About the 202...

And it ran Ok...

What could you say?

It seems (to me) that too much seriousness is slowly creeping into the forum.

Replicas are for fun.

To make matters worse...from reading on the 'net, I just found out that I have been oiling Eta reversers incorrectly for over 25 years.

Now I worry why I never had any trouble with them.

It never ends.

Ignorance is bliss.

[Ronin]

While there have been many great observations above, there seems to be a prevailing theme that the amplitude does not matter. That simply is not true, and if they were properly QC'ing it they should have wound it fully.

Perhaps Zig should chime in here, but it is my belief/understanding that amplitude can give you a "heads up" as to what is going on. In the OP:

(assuming dial-up/down (it is safe to subtract 20 in a crown up/down position) (the mechanics of the new(ish) movment used are good)))

202 = Movement could be dirty/gumming up.

328 = Movement could be DRY causing less friction. Excessive amplitude may result in the impulse pin on the impulse roller coming completely around and hitting the back of the pallet fork.

True, this whole QC luxury never existed, can be "tweaked", etc. If the watch is cosmetically good, and runs, might as well pull the trigger.

[Watchmeister]

Fully agree. It would be relevant if you knew they were testing the watch properly.

[redwatch]

I really never pay any attention to the timegrapher pics that the dealers send me. I am more concerned with any cosmetic (or in some cases blatant) flaws with the watch. If the movement is ticking along then great. If it dies, I'll replace it or send it out for servicing. Not really worth getting overly upset about.

But that is just me. Personally I don't trust or have any faith in their readouts anyways.

[frankt]

"A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing" is the primary factor here......

And unfortunately, the folks taking those pics often suffer from the syndrome....

I bought dozens of watches before the advent of QC pics, and IMNSFHO, they have become an unnecessary PITA!!!

If the watch looks and runs decent....Wear it.... :pimp:

[freddy333]

For reference, a low amplitude means that gravity & acceleration will have more of an effect on timing. In simple words, timing variations are likely to occur day-to-day.

[FxrAndy]

With an amplitude that low I know some thing is not right. Sorry to all the people who do not think it is an issue but it is. Generally just giving a few more winds will not give it the correct amplitude. All the issues with the qc photos aside the watch is not as it should be. Would you buy a car that only ran well at half it's max speed? Or one that did not looked scratched only when it was wet??

Would you buy a car you test drove if the dealer would not let you shift into reverse turn on the AC go over 30 ? But he assured you all was fine?

For one I would not

[Rastko]

Seems to me that i have opened Pandora's box here.

Again, thank you all as my knowledge in this is very limited and it is quite great to get all of your opinions.

Personally, I think that if dealer is sending pic from timegraph than it should be in some defined range, also having in mind that I have paid

full service of that particular watch and therefore it should ran smooth as butter!

He promised to have it fixed, whatever that means, and now I am waiting for new QC pics.

One thing I learned is to try harder to find proper service for rep watch in my surrounding.

R.