sneed12 Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 I sold a watch to a new member recently. He received it and claimed it was not as described. The "caseback was loose" (which it may well have been, I open all of the watches I sell to make sure everything looks ok on the inside after once having a movement clamp come loose and stop the balance wheel--if so, that's on me and I'm sorry) and the "date doesn't work." OK. It's worked fine for me for more than a year, but maybe it broke during shipping or something. Despite the fact that I always write "no returns or refunds" I have only once refused to take an item back (the guy said, literally, that in person it wasn't as shiny as it looked in the pictures). I told him to send it back to me and I'd give him a refund if he wasn't happy with it. Instead, he wants me to "rebuy" the watch from him--send a payment for the amount that the watch sold for. I told him no and he filed a dispute. Folks, there's a number of reasons why filing a dispute should be a last resort. First, we as a community need to keep as low a profile as possible. Getting paypal involved is not "low profile." Second, it won't make things any different. I will not refund the money until I have my watch back--if I send a refund while the buyer still has the watch, what's to prevent him from just keeping it? The buyer is protected by Paypal--if the buyer returns the watch, and doesn't get a refund, THEN file a dispute. Prove to paypal that you shipped the watch back (you kept the receipt and got tracking) and they will force the refund to occur. (I explained all of this to the guy, of course, and he chose to file a dispute anyway). This is my first paypal dispute as a seller, and now I know this additional piece of information: the only options I have to respond to the dispute are to refund the money right away (which I won't do) or deny it (which leaves us back at square one). So filing a dispute doesn't even do any good. And of course, now my Paypal account is frozen. I can't do anything with it. Specifically, if someone else needs a refund, I can't process it until the hold is taken off. So thanks a lot, now you've made everyone else's life more complicated as well. Paypal disputes are fine, as a last resort. But please, try to work things out (with the seller, and then get the mods involved) BEFORE involving Paypal. It's common courtesy, it's the way we try to do things here in our community, and (as I've just discovered) involving Paypal doesn't even help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 Sneed we need to know who the other party is, for the sake of the other members that may be dealing with this person right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneed12 Posted June 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 Buyer's name was watch4king. I haven't heard from him since yesterday, he said he'd return the item but hasn't said anything since. As soon as I have it back in my hands I'll refund his money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEKS Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 Sound like Watch4Douche. But hey, I don't mind calling an ass an ass. - J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serge D Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 Thanks for the headsup, thats one hell of a situation to be in. My nose feels there is a group of smart people working on an identical Paypal-like service webpage. I filed PP dispute only once in my life, thats when i was banned from RG for no reason, that really [censored] me off and i had no access to their webpage to communicate. Its just part of the game for now, go figure who youre selling stuff to, they all seem nice and cool, untill they get the item and abuse paypals policy. Something has to be done, really... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archierocks Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 i hate this i hate paypal i used to sell on ebay for many years from cheap silver jewellery to big gold and diamonds which i make everything in house i lost about $5000 over a month with people winning and then using disputes paypal always pay out the refund to the buyer as sellers we get [censored] royally from them and ebay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar1 Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 Have said it time and again about those bloody ludicrously unfair PP policies, sorry to hear about your woes sneed. Just shows that there are plenty of unscrupulous buyers in the rep game more than willing to take full advantage of those lunatic buyer protections on a whim. Sad to see tbh, I hope you can work something out, I was going to say withdraw PP funds to your CC and if paypal chargeback the CC, then you authorize you bank to re-chargeback to your account....but seeing as things are already frozen you are gonna have to sit this one out. Thanks for naming and shaming though, the rep community doesn't need these sort of folks, unfortunately they seem to be growing in numbers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r3zn Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 As soon as a dispute is filed the money connected to the transaction is "frozen" until the dispute is resolved either way. Your account shouldn't be frozen, just the funds for the transaction in question. As for the options of responding, you should deny it since he hasn't returned the item yet. When you do you will be given an opportunity to give the reason why and to also write a message. The buyer must have proof of return for him to get his money back so he will probably send it registered although you'd be surprised how many people don't. I have an ebay store and over the years have had to deal with people that file disputes at the drop of a hat. The thing to remember is that you are also protected by paypal as a seller. The system is still more in favor of the buyer but like I said, he MUST return the item and he MUST have proof of this for them to release the money back to him. Hope that helps mate. Good luck with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielv2000 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Oh boy! Happened to me a few weeks ago on aonther forum and it really threw my paypal account into a tail spin. Luckily, the buyer and I resolved it but the PP claim was opened within 24 hrs of the watch being received. I learned a valuable lesson. Even though everyone deserves a start, I will now deal with veteran members and only if I cannot sell will I move on. I've always been a first come first serve guy. No more! Hopefully, it all works out for you, Sneed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkay Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 r3zn: theres another layer of complication here ... Contraband. It's not exactly like regular eBay sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valinfrance Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 I had PP problems I sold a watch and buyer confirmed it received and all in order,left me positive feedback. then after he had owned the watch for 17 days he filed a complaint to PP saying the hands were bent (how do you bend the hands ).I disputed the claim with all my evidence,feedback etc but PP still made me refund his money .I got the watch back and sure enough the hands were bent (but not when I sent it to the buyer ) Expensive mistake for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiesn089 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 The thing I hate PayPal for is that you as a seller are forced to pay their ridiculously high fees (ever sold a high value item internationally - say hello to 100€+ fees) while the only one being "protected" is the buyer. There are plenty of horrible stories on gen boards as well. Buyers just claimed they received an aftermarket part instead of gen, were then told to destroy the "fake" item (which of course they never did) and the refunded their money without any proof. Imagine that happening to you on a high value item... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 So I take it watch4king does not want to comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar1 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 What's bugging me lately is 'certain' forums almost taking the stand of (or at least heavily discussing) enforcing these protections by banning sellers asking gift payments for rep sales, it's comical tbh. We are all aware that on occasions the buyer doesn't get his watach and the seller is the issue, but these days its become as frequent that the buyer is the issue as he has a great method of try before buy at his disposal. If anything its these disputes through paypal and the mention of reps or fakes (or even rep sites, who knows if the buyer is capable of disputing over nothing then they are capable of mentioning a bit too much about the rep community).... is actually bringing more attention to the forums. I had a gen sale not so long ago and the buyer who paid via BT kicked up a big storm with me over a bent bracelet pin on one of the unused extra links. I made the mistake of not looking at the link pin prior to sale as I didn't need it on the bracelet (smaller wrist) and it was a preused watch(not new to me) ....I offered to buy a new pin or link and pin even or whatever would make him happy..... nothing would make him happy, he wanted a refund. This watch was in immaculate condition recently serviced movement perfectly finished and operating within cosc and he makes a big palaver over the bracelet pin on an extra link. In reality what happened was he changed his mind, something else took a shine for him and wanted a refund to fund that. In the end after trying to work things out he wasn't anywhere near accommodating to anything so he was told where to go. I kinda miss that watch as it was a cracker, at the end of it what I really would have liked to done with that person was to buy him a whole new bracelet at my expense and deliver it to him in person then hand him his refund and insist on my old watch back(broken pin and all) then ram that brand new bracelet down his throat .....tbh if he bought it via paypal I have no doubt he would've been the type to jump head first into a dispute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draven451 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Sneed, Sorry to hear about this problem.It's unfortunate that some newbies can mess it up for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixers_610 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Sorry to hear it sneed. PayPal is extremely buyer centric. I know we haven't had the best dealings but that sucks Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 So still no comment by watch4king? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavidoc Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 FxrAndy, Why would he? He's being an a$$hat for no reason. To Watch4King: "Rebuy" the watch? Really? What kind of idiotic reasoning is this? You might want to be a bit more subtle next time or just tell the seller: "You send me money as I don't like the watch and then I'll just keep the watch." Paypal has a "refund" button for a REASON. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 FxrAndy, Why would he? He's being an a$$hat for no reason. To Watch4King: "Rebuy" the watch? Really? What kind of idiotic reasoning is this? You might want to be a bit more subtle next time or just tell the seller: "You send me money as I don't like the watch and then I'll just keep the watch." Paypal has a "refund" button for a REASON. Wont be a next time as he is now a banned asshat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r3zn Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) r3zn: theres another layer of complication here ... Contraband. It's not exactly like regular eBay sales. I hear you, although that would only come into play if the buyer specifically detailed the fact that he knowingly bought contraband with his paypal account which would see his account suspended as well. Any way you look at it, it's definately not the way to go if there are any issues with a transaction, especially if the seller is willing to resolve it. And especially transactions involving rep watches. But people are people, and contraband or not, there is no reasoning with those that are intent on enturbulating others. Edited June 13, 2012 by r3zn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porschespeedster Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 once this happens to you once...you don't use paypal anymore. this isn't 1996, there's about 100 other ways to do Internet commerce. if someone won't buy or sell to you unless you agree to use it...that's your tipoff right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macjulivert Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 I have never had a problem with my changes or sales. Not in this forum. But in others where I have sold a part, never put it is not possible to return. I always give the option that if a buyer is not satisfied, have the option of return. Do not give that option seems like "you take her!" and seems a little fake ... I believe in the honesty of people. If you do not like, it's okay, I give it back and give you back the money (paying the cost of shipping by the buyer, of course). I do not want people who tried, can feel deceived, cheated or upset by treatment, and the truth is that I never had a problem. Do not attempt to defraud or mislead anyone and sales, I have always lost money, always. Recently I sold a Pam crownguard a guy from Canada who assured me that he had never received the product. I trusted and returned the money. I think that says a lot about a person, right now, every shipment that I do, however small, I do with tracking number. Where appropriate Sneed, this buyer has done wrong, very wrong. You do not deserve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar1 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 The trouble is mac, sales universally work without the option of return, especially 2nd hand sales....unless there is good reason (a genuine fault). Fair play to you for being so trustworthy but I do not think it is misleading to not offer the option of return except in exceptional cir[censored]stances. Good photos and a proper description do help to combat problems later(With most people). Change of mind type scenarios on the buyers side are not acceptable in the real world, (at least not without very definitive conditions prior to sale) why should they be acceptable in the PP world! Most people once they have made a sale and the buyer receives the item which matches the photos and description in the listing accurately, then the seller is discharged of all responsibility after that point. I personally would not have time or patience under any cir[censored]stances to entertain returns from a buyer who complains "I don't like the fit/size/colour etc" It's up to the buyer to show due diligence and do their research and ask questions beforehand, if they don't, then that's their problem and its wrong that PP hand hold these idiots! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar1 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Did it really censor "cir[censored]stances" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwatch Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 once this happens to you once...you don't use paypal anymore. this isn't 1996, there's about 100 other ways to do Internet commerce. if someone won't buy or sell to you unless you agree to use it...that's your tipoff right there. Can you give some examples? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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