Australians Have A Warning For Americans

[kbh]

I just did. Now let me suggest that regurgitating commentary from the likes of the VPC, whose public & unconstitutional statements include the likes of 'Handguns should be banned from future sale except for military and law- enforcement personnel' & '(the ATF should) take immediate action to stop the sale and distribution of firearms', tends to delegitamize your point.

So, as usual, you didn't make any comment about the facts of the report or the 74% of their money that comes from the firearms industry. Just because you disagree with their position certainly doesn't make the facts that they reported either incorrect of wrong.

 

All you did was belittle the messenger which is no way to win a debate.

[freddy333]

So, as usual, you didn't make any comment about the facts of the report or the 74% of their money that comes from the firearms industry.

There is no point in debating 'facts' from a group like that.

[Nanuq]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/whom-does-the-nra-really-speak-for/266373/

[kbh]

Forbes:

 

The NRA’s main answer—arming our schools—didn’t work at Colombine High School, where two armed guards “were outgunned by the assault weapons wielded by the two teens” who attacked their school, said Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center, a research and advocacy organization focused on gun-control. The two officers on hand fired at the shooters but were unable to slow or stop them.

 

Once again, all BS since the VPC is involved, I guess.

 

The Nation:

 

 

The National Rifle Association portrays itself as an organization that represents “4 million members” who simply love the Second Amendment. The truth is much more murky.

In reality, the NRA is composed of half a dozen legal entities; some designed to run undisclosed attack ads in political campaigns, others to lobby and collect tens of millions in undisclosed, tax-deductible sums. This power has only been enhanced in the era of Citizens United, with large GOP donors in the last election reportedly funneling money to the NRA simply to use the group as a brand to pummel Democrats with nasty ads. (As The Huffington Post’s Peter Stone reported, even the Koch network now provides an undisclosed amount to the NRA.)

Despite the grassroots façade, there is much evidence to suggest that corporations that profit from unregulated gun use are propping up the NRA’s activities, much like how the tobacco lobby secretly funded “Smokers Rights’” fronts and libertarian anti-tax groups, or how polluters currently finance much of the climate change skepticism movement.

In a “special thanks” to their donors, the National Rifle Association Foundation lists Bushmaster Firearms Inc., the company that makes the assault rifle reportedly found with the shooter responsible for the mass murder today in Newtown, Connecticut. How much Bushmaster Firearms Inc. (a firm now known as Windham) contributes is left unsaid.

The Violence Policy Center has estimated that since 2005, gun manufacturers have contributed up to $38.9 million to the NRA. Those numbers, however, are based on publicly listed “sponsorship” levels on NRA fundraising pamphlets. The real figures could be much bigger. Like Crossroads GPS or Americans for Prosperity, or the Sierra Club for that matter, the NRA does not disclose any donor information even though it spends millions on federal elections.

And like other industry fronts, the NRA is quick to conceal its pro–gun industry policy positions as ideological commitments.

 

 

The reality is all out there. Alll you've got to do is read it.

[KB]

Monash University 

 

Been busy Googling I see.

 

Well for one I have stated from the start that it could still happen here, however in the above case there was 2 deaths in Monash, the main reason for that was the perp had a simple hand gun.

 

It does however raise another issue, we have excellent mental health care here in Australia and the shooter was mentally deranged so better mental health care whilst being an important social issue will not deal with mass shootings...only making it difficult to access these weapons can do that.

 

 

Ken

[Nanuq]

The Worst K-12 Shootings in History

 

#1- Sandy Hook, US in 2012 - 26 victims (20 children, 6 adults)
#2- Dunblane, Scotland in 1996 - 17 victims (16 children, 1 adult)
#3- Erfurt, Germany in 2002 - 16 victims (2 children, 14 adults)
#4- Winnenden, Germany in 2009 - 15 victims (9 children, 6 adults)

Two in Germany, and one in Scotland, both of which have much more strict gun control laws. In fact, at the time of the Scotland shooting, only .1% of the population owned a gun in that country."

 

 

 

Apparently, making it difficult to access a gun does not prevent mass shootings.

[kbh]

In Australia, a shooting massacre in 1996 prompted the government to ban the sale of semi automatic guns and buy back those in circulation, and require gun purchasers to register all weapons under their own names. Gun deaths there dropped 59 percent over the following decade, with not a single mass shooting since.

 

Slate.com

Edited January 15, 2013 by kbh

[JoeyB]

Been busy Googling I see.

I appreciate your belief that I know everything, but I don't. However, I do know where to find what I don't know. 

Well for one I have stated from the start that it could still happen here, however in the above case there was 2 deaths in Monash, the main reason for that was the perp had a simple hand gun.

And 5 wounded. But I didn't realize it was a contest. 

It does however raise another issue, we have excellent mental health care here in Australia and the shooter was mentally deranged so better mental health care whilst being an important social issue will not deal with mass shootings...only making it difficult to access these weapons can do that.

 

 

Ken

I disagree. I think if we had better mental health awareness and care that we would greatly reduce all shootings here. 

 

Pentagon officials say there are some 20,000 soldiers now back home who are suffering from PTSD and worse mental damage/disorders. I believe the number to be closer to 200,000. If we accept the low number, that is 20,000  varying violent acts by trained professionals that can go off at any moment. Or never.  

How should we find out? I don't think we should wait and see.  

[KB]

Joey has it struck you yet that no one but yourself sees you as the only informed participant in this debate.

 

Most of us have completely differing opinions than yourself, if you gave them some thought it is quite possible you might learn something.

 

Ken

[KB]

The Worst K-12 Shootings in History

 

#1- Sandy Hook, US in 2012 - 26 victims (20 children, 6 adults)

#2- Dunblane, Scotland in 1996 - 17 victims (16 children, 1 adult)

#3- Erfurt, Germany in 2002 - 16 victims (2 children, 14 adults)

#4- Winnenden, Germany in 2009 - 15 victims (9 children, 6 adults)

Two in Germany, and one in Scotland, both of which have much more strict gun control laws. In fact, at the time of the Scotland shooting, only .1% of the population owned a gun in that country."

 

 

 

Apparently, making it difficult to access a gun does not prevent mass shootings.

 

Nanuq that is a classic case of using distorted stats.

 

I think a far more accurate stat would be total mass shootings not just those associated to a certain weapon.

 

Ken

[JoeyB]

Joey has it struck you yet that no one but yourself sees you as the only informed participant in this debate.

 

Most of us have completely differing opinions than yourself, if you gave them some thought it is quite possible you might learn something.

 

Ken

Nope.

[Nanuq]

Nanuq that is a classic case of using distorted stats.

Ken

Ken, as stated in the title those are the worst K-12 shootings in history. Period.

[Nanuq]

KBH: you didn't make any comment about the facts of the report or the 74% of their money that comes from the firearms industry.

Your most recent quote claims the NRA received as much as $38.9 million since 2005 (7 years) from "the gun industry"

In fiscal year 2010 alone the NRA took in $228 million dollars.

How do you calculate your 74% as quoted above?

[KB]

Yes understood and no argument about that, however listed like that suggests that Germany has a bigger problem with mass shootings and gun deaths than the US

 

 

Ken

[Nanuq]

Ken, I'm not playing with shades of grey, I'm posting hard facts for the debate, as requested.

Added: Scotland had the 2nd worst mass shooting K-12, with a vanishingly small percentage of private gun ownership.

I contend the number of people in the USA that perform mass shootings, relative to the number of gun owners, is a vanishingly small fraction as well.

[kbh]

Your most recent quote claims the NRA received as much as $38.9 million since 2005 (7 years) from "the gun industry"

In fiscal year 2010 alone the NRA took in $228 million dollars.

How do you calculate your 74% as quoted above?

Apparently that's the amount of money from "corporate partners", not the total of all revenue. Here's how "they" calculated it:

 

The report, Blood Money: How the Gun Industry Bankrolls the NRA, reveals that since 2005 contributions from gun industry "corporate partners" to the NRA total between $14.7 million and $38.9 million. Total donations to the NRA from all "corporate partners"--both gun industry and non-gun industry--for the same time period total between $19.8 million and $52.6 million. The vast majority of funds--74 percent--contributed to the NRA from “corporate partners” come from members of the firearms industry: companies involved in the manufacture or sale of firearms or shooting-related products.

 

This is also relevant:

 

The Violence Policy Center has estimated that since 2005, gun manufacturers have contributed up to $38.9 million to the NRA. Those numbers, however, are based on publicly listed “sponsorship” levels on NRA fundraising pamphlets. The real figures could be much bigger. Like Crossroads GPS or Americans for Prosperity, or the Sierra Club for that matter, the NRA does not disclose any donor information even though it spends millions on federal elections.

And like other industry fronts, the NRA is quick to conceal its pro–gun industry policy positions as ideological commitments.

 

 

Whatever it is, the figures show that the NRA is firmly in the pockets of the gun industry, Just as a goodly portion of the Republican party is firmly in the pocket of the NRA. It's a big merry-go-round of money, like everything else in Washington DC.

[Nanuq]

Thanks for the links. So it looks like the NRA took in up to $52M over 7 years from all corporate partners, gun related or not. Let's say that's $7M per year.

During 2010 they grossed $228M, so corporate contributions of all forms would then be about 3% ish.

(edited)

[KB]

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-nra-has-sold-out-to-the-gun-industry-to-become-their-top-crisis-pr-firm-2012-12

 

Ken

[KB]

I find this very interesting too.... http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-the-debacle-of-gun-control/2013/01/14/313e4c84-5e78-11e2-9940-6fc488f3fecd_story.html?wpisrc=nl_opinions

 

 

Ken

[Nanuq]

You might like this one too:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

[lloyd]

The Worst K-12 Shootings in History

 

#1- Sandy Hook, US in 2012 - 26 victims (20 children, 6 adults)

#2- Dunblane, Scotland in 1996 - 17 victims (16 children, 1 adult)

#3- Erfurt, Germany in 2002 - 16 victims (2 children, 14 adults)

#4- Winnenden, Germany in 2009 - 15 victims (9 children, 6 adults)

Two in Germany, and one in Scotland, both of which have much more strict gun control laws. In fact, at the time of the Scotland shooting, only .1% of the population owned a gun in that country."

 

 

 

Apparently, making it difficult to access a gun does not prevent mass shootings.

You do not even need a gun to kill a lot of kids. The worst US school killing was in 1927 in Bath Michigan. He killed 38 kids and 6 adults with bombs.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Edited January 16, 2013 by lloyd

[txcollector]

I'd like to see show of hands of people that have been personally saved (real cases not imaginary ones to try to make a point) from harm by having a loaded gun ready (apart from law enforcement and those that live in the wilderness surrounded by dangerous wild life). 

 

I keep hearing that you would be safer with a gun around but I sincerely doubt that's the case. In all my years I can't recall one instance where being armed would have helped me. I have been robbed twice (small stuff) and in both cases it was group against me (never saw a gun though but there was an assumption they could be armed). Even if I was a marksman I would not take a gang of armed thugs, that would just be stupid.

 

One of the things that most concern me in Texas is some jackass with a gun in his car that decides to shoot someone that cuts them off and a bullet finds its way into my car. Having a loaded gun in the glove compartment wouldn't do me any good in that case.

[Nanuq]

I'd like to see show of hands

I can offer a perspective from the other side of the poll. My Grandparents and great Aunt had two 14-year old kids, a girl and a boy, come to their door at night asking to use the phone, then muscle their way inside. All three were murdered.

If Grandfather had his pistol handy when they forced their way in, I guarantee it would have ended differently.

[lloyd]

I'd like to see show of hands of people that have been personally saved (real cases not imaginary ones to try to make a point) from harm by having a loaded gun ready (apart from law enforcement and those that live in the wilderness surrounded by dangerous wild life). 

 

I keep hearing that you would be safer with a gun around but I sincerely doubt that's the case. In all my years I can't recall one instance where being armed would have helped me. I have been robbed twice (small stuff) and in both cases it was group against me (never saw a gun though but there was an assumption they could be armed). Even if I was a marksman I would not take a gang of armed thugs, that would just be stupid.

 

One of the things that most concern me in Texas is some jackass with a gun in his car that decides to shoot someone that cuts them off and a bullet finds its way into my car. Having a loaded gun in the glove compartment wouldn't do me any good in that case.

My mom stopped a home invasion with her pistol when I was a kid.

 

My weapon stopped a carjacking one time and an attemped home invasion after hurricane Ike

 

I did not have to fire a shot just seeing it made them leave. My mom fired a warning shot over their head.

[Ephry73]

To add to the above post, in the Caribbean, a warning shot saves everyone. Cannot do that with an unloaded gun.

Now in NY we have these new laws.....