Australians Have A Warning For Americans

[Mike on a bike]

Do we know these numbers are true;

" Israel has 1 of the world's highest number of guns per capita (nearly every family has at least 1 military-style firearm), but 1 of the lowest rates of gun-related crime in the world (both Switzerland & Canada have significantly higher numbers of gun-related deaths than does Israel)." 

 

Well they must be a crock if you are on a particular side of the issue.  We must investigate methodology on how they were compiled to refute them to support that position.

Oh what the hell they are a crock cause I think they are.

 

"The Federalist Papers." Yes sir re bob.

 

  We must seem strange to our friends in other countries keep in mind our country was founded by rebels who hated government, this is the reason we exist as a country. Now no one alive was there and most of us can only trace back a generation or two living here. (Indians are the only true Americans) But these were the risk takers the bold who came across the Atlantic with maybe a bag with some clothes to Ellis Island or jumped on and over crowed boat from Cuba. We are a cocky, arrogant and independent bunch for the most part but the ideals of those rebels are ingrained in us somehow. We are quick to give and quick to fight (I know the fighting you know check the numbers on giving we are # one) but when the chips are down you can count on us for blood or treasure. These ideals and traits make us who we are, gun happy Americans to some Neanderthals living in the past to others even some of our own. I agree with some of my fellow countrymen that we have lost our way in the quality of our society where the taking of human life is nothing. The failure of the change in mental health policy by well meaning people in the past has failed us. But I refuse to side with the premise that disarming good law abiding people will redress these problems because it will do neither.

[Ephry73]

Oh boy, let's not get started with pirate roots.

[Mike on a bike]

 Pirates we are pirates! That sounds like fun , gotta get a parrot for my shoulder.

 

Ephry how do explain the pro -gun group we all are deeply emotional on the subject that we need guns to keep government in check, protect family, it is my right,etc.

But my grand parents came of the boat in 1915 and I'll go down fighting to protect that right. Seems it is ingrained in us some how. Now a buddy of mine is old German stock family been here since 1800s thinks just like me. Have I guy i know at work Indian came over in teens now 35 makes me look like a liberal. I can not explain it just the way it is that was my point.

[StormTooper4]

As an Aussie I am embarrassed by that video , as KB said its a crock of #$%@. We dont need guns We dont want guns. SHame on the journalist  that put that Bollox together

[Mike on a bike]

Storm you guys really don't want guns, not being a jerk it is different here. Just about every guy wants one and if you can't afford one you dream about the one you want, the culture is so different it's unexplainable. i talk to you guys here all the time get along handsomely,  PM with friends there all the time families good guys just like us : we just think different on it.

[KB]

I dream about all those beautiful children who didn't go home that day, but yeah probably stupid putting flesh and blood before some nice cold steel.

 

 

Ken

[Mike on a bike]

Politicians use your emotions in a tragic tragic event like this to take advantage of you ,don't let them.

 

  Ken,

    We are diametrically apposed on this issue, you can play the children card all you want it doesn't change a thing just stirs up emotion, I will not let that cloud my judgement.

 A. In the states you will never get all the guns. (this is true, you know this)

 B. Bad people will get guns. (this is true, you know this also)

 C.Good people will not have them. (this is true because they will follow the law)

Now in your mind if it saves a bunch of kids by some odd chance you are for it OK, in mine it may may not so not giving up my right to bear arms for a host of reasons.

 

Done again, no point we are not changing each others minds.

[KB]

Sorry that's simply rot, when mass murder occurs it is one of the most emotional situations know to man.

 

The NRA tells you not to play the emotion card because if everyone followed their heart they wouldn't exist.

 

What I have trouble with in this whole argument is that no one wants to ban guns totally, just automatic guns and yet we hear the 2nd amendment quoted time and again.

 

No one who signed the 2nd amendment would have, nor could have, had even the slightest concept of what an automatic rifle was. 

 

 

Ken

[icoopernicus]

Lets take Chicago for example. Chicago has historically had the strongest gun-control laws In the US. Chicago also has one of the highest If not the highest homicide rates In the country. The same can be said for DC. Fact.

Mike

Let's look at a larger picture please. Yes, Chicago has strict gun laws, but it's smack dab in the middle of the United States of Guns. If there are less guns then their are less guns that can be used to kill someone. There is one really important statistic that you cannot overlook.

Per Capita civilian gun ownership in the United States is the highest in the world (not the developed world, the whole damn thing) They are in the top 10 countries in the world for gun related fatalities. Do you know what countries are not in the top 10? Glad you asked, because I am going to tell you- Not a single developed, first world country sits in the top ten with the United States.

There are other developed nations that are high on the list (about 1/3 the rate of gun deaths as the USA in Switzerland, dropping sharply to about than1/5 in Canada) What puts countries like Canada, Switzerland, Germany, France, Finland at 1-4 gun deaths/100,000 people? They all have really high gun ownership.

Who's at the bottom of both lists?

Japan (0.07 Deaths/100,000 - 0.6 Guns/Person)

Singapore (0.24 Deaths/100,000 - 0.5 Guns/Person)

South Korea (0.13 Deaths/100,000 - 1.1 Guns/Person)

These are not outlyers, the united states is not some exception to the rule, it is the rule. More guns = More gun deaths. This is simple math, very simple math. You can't kill someone with a gun if you don't have a gun to kill them with and if you don't have a gun to kill someone with, you are far less likely to kill someone!

[icoopernicus]

Regardless of which side you are on, here are a couple of facts -

2. Israel has 1 of the world's highest number of guns per capita (nearly every family has at least 1 military-style firearm), but 1 of the lowest rates of gun-related crime in the world (both Switzerland & Canada have significantly higher numbers of gun-related deaths than does Israel).

- Israel does not have one of the lowest rates of gun deaths in the world! They sit just below Canada in Gun related deaths per Capita.

- Israel does not have one of the worlds highest number of guns per capita! They are at about 1/4 the guns in Canada

Is this what passes for a fact these days?

If we simplify the actual facts regarding the countries that you mentioned then we see that indeed Less Guns = Less Gun Deaths

Hey, Math IS fun

[Mike on a bike]

Ken,

  We are not allowed to have Auto as in military we can have semi auto one pull one shot. Now as far as having clips the size of your arm I tend to lean against (really guys you need more than 10 ) but the I'm going to fight the government camp say hey the feds have big clips and auto. Our founding fathers were allowing us to be armed with the same weapons used on the battle field of the day (latest tech of the time)  if their intent was to keep government in check what's the point in having citizens armed with bolt action rifles against the government armed with machine guns.

[Mike on a bike]

More guns = more deaths, have you heard me disagree overall on that point.

However.

I am not giving up my rights for safety , I guess that was the picture I was trying to paint posts back on our mind set.

 

We know it, but we fell individually safer with our own protection from others and are willing to take our chances to that end.

 

With freedom comes risk less risk less freedom more freedom more risk.

 

There is one thing we are very afraid of that one day everyone will be so safe the government controls everything.

 

Decide how much freedom you want, I have.

[Ephry73]

Mike, I loooove my guns. First shotgun I ever owned I received as a two year old. I am a firm believer and defender of the second amendment. It IS there to keep the government in check and to give us citizens a sense of empowerment and security. This is one of those polarizing subjects and hands down we need to look at our society and culture and see where we steered wrong. I wish we could bring dodgeball back to the schools and that kids actually get recess, not just cafeteria hours. We need to encourage our next generation, not hinder them with all VIP trophies.

[Mike on a bike]

Ephry,

Everyone gets a pony !  They are molding them into good little drones. It seems other "civilized" western countries have already achieved there goal for the most part and have a docile unarmed herd it is even working here to an extent. Yes take my means to defend myself the government will protect me, my how naive. Trust them as far as I can throw them lefty.

 

PS  Ken, "Sorry that's simply rot, when mass murder occurs it is one of the most emotional situations know to man."

I agree that it is very very emotional, all the more reason to step back and look at the long term consequences of what you are going to do in regard least you let emotion cloud your judgement.

[kbh]

Citizen's owning guns to keep our Government in check is the funniest part of this thread. I can just see a bunch of fools with AR-15's fighting against a well trained army with tanks, armored personell carriers, aircraft, drones, submmarines and nuclear missiles. Good luck with that one.

 

Red Dawn was just a movie, not real life.

[automatico]

"What I have trouble with in this whole argument is that no one wants to ban guns totally, just automatic guns and yet we hear the 2nd amendment quoted time and again."

"No one who signed the 2nd amendment would have, nor could have, had even the slightest concept of what an automatic rifle was."

 

True automatics are not the same as semi-automatics (full autos are strictly regulated) but it is always semi-automatics that fuzz up hand wringing USA liberals after each shooting...and they always call them 'automatics'. I doubt they know the difference.

I see no real need for 30, 60, 100 etc round clips or full automatics.

 

Video...

I used to see Lance Thomas at NAWCC shows. I still have one of his business cards with the motto "No Obsene Profit Here."

A super nice guy...unless you try to rob him.

 

Look at 5:35 where the liberal leaning interviewer tried to blame a shooting on LT.

 

I keep a sawed off 12 guage pump handy.

The original 'point and click'.   

[mch2112]

The Federalist Papers.

OK, that's 85 essays written by three guys anonymously. I'd like to see where they write about it (not disputing just yet, but I'd like to see.) Also, it's quite clear that the authors (Hamilton, Jay and Madison) are a very small subset of the "founding fathers." They were influential but not the only game in town. Edited January 5, 2013 by mch2112

[icoopernicus]

This is what keeping guns in your house leads too, This is the reality that is your countries love of deadly weapons. Guns are what you cherrish over the safety of your friends and loved ones. By the way, almost all of these happened in the last couple of weeks. Take your second amendment and put it where it belongs - in your history books (which by the way need updating)

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/340430

http://www.krem.com/home/Court-documents-Its-my-fault-said-man-accused-in-deadly-accidental-shooting-185344291.html

http://www.ci.medford.or.us/News.asp?NewsID=4125

http://www2.nbc17.com/news/2012/dec/22/teen-killed-accidental-shooting-ar-2880659/

http://www.dailypress.com/news/crime/dp-hampton-teen-shoots-himself-0104,0,3639233.story

http://www.wcax.com/story/20478565/police-richford-man-died-from-accidental-shooting

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50358306/ns/local_news-anchorage_ak/

This links to several

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/accidental-shooting

[mch2112]

Excellent balanced discussion of the topic here: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-riddle-of-the-gun'>http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-riddle-of-the-gun

[maxman]

Let's look at a larger picture please. Yes, Chicago has strict gun laws, but it's smack dab in the middle of the United States of Guns. If there are less guns then their are less guns that can be used to kill someone. There is one really important statistic that you cannot overlook.

Per Capita civilian gun ownership in the United States is the highest in the world (not the developed world, the whole damn thing) They are in the top 10 countries in the world for gun related fatalities. Do you know what countries are not in the top 10? Glad you asked, because I am going to tell you- Not a single developed, first world country sits in the top ten with the United States.

There are other developed nations that are high on the list (about 1/3 the rate of gun deaths as the USA in Switzerland, dropping sharply to about than1/5 in Canada) What puts countries like Canada, Switzerland, Germany, France, Finland at 1-4 gun deaths/100,000 people? They all have really high gun ownership.

Who's at the bottom of both lists?

Japan (0.07 Deaths/100,000 - 0.6 Guns/Person)

Singapore (0.24 Deaths/100,000 - 0.5 Guns/Person)

South Korea (0.13 Deaths/100,000 - 1.1 Guns/Person)

These are not outlyers, the united states is not some exception to the rule, it is the rule. More guns = More gun deaths. This is simple math, very simple math. You can't kill someone with a gun if you don't have a gun to kill them with and if you don't have a gun to kill someone with, you are far less likely to kill someone!

Tell that to the evil mother [censored] who break Into your home and have very bad Intentions for you and your family. I'm sure they well be very Impressed with your stats. FYI many home security systems can be defeated by cutting a few wires on outside boxes. Much Information available on this topic alone.

 

Good luck.

 

Mike

[icoopernicus]

Tell that to the evil mother [censored] who break Into your home and have very bad Intentions for you and your family. I'm sure they well be very Impressed with your stats. FYI many home security systems can be defeated by cutting a few wires on outside boxes. Much Information available on this topic alone.

 

Good luck.

 

Mike

If someone wants to break into my house and murder me, I guess they can go right ahead. In the meantime the rest of my family, my neighbours, and my friends will be safe because I don't have a stockpile of guns for them to accidentally shoot each other with (see my last post with links to the plethora of accidental shootings that happen on a weekly basis) 

[KB]

Lots of problems with that scenario Mike.

 

For one people break into homes by stealth, they rarely kick your door down and come in with guns blazing so they would be standing over you when you wake, two I'm guessing you would have a hand gun in your bedside cabinet and not a semi automatic, and yes as I once belonged to a target shooting club, a skeet club and hunted I do know they are different from automatics and for the layman it is just a matter of rate of fire, three unless the person breaking in is some kind of nut job (which is rare) he is not there to kill your family he is there to take what he can and get out, if he is a nut job you probably would never wake up again anyway.

 

But again you want a hand gun for protection fine but a semi automatic! You might take out the perp but in a house with thin plaster walls you will probably take out half your family too.

 

 

Ken

[JoeyB]

No one who signed the 2nd amendment would have, nor could have, had even the slightest concept of what an automatic rifle was. 

 

 

Ken

 The assault weapon in 1775 was the musket with mounted bayonet. Our militia turned and ran from the battlefield when the bayonets were mounted. Different weapon. Same effect. Our militia didn't have muskets or bayonets. When they were deployed with the weaponry they did have, and used to that strength, they were successful. 

[JoeyB]

Citizen's owning guns to keep our Government in check is the funniest part of this thread. I can just see a bunch of fools with AR-15's fighting against a well trained army with tanks, armored personell carriers, aircraft, drones, submmarines and nuclear missiles. Good luck with that one.

 

Red Dawn was just a movie, not real life.

I disagree, and believe it is the purpose of the 2nd Amendment to this day.

 

If you'd like to see "a bunch of fools with AR-15's" or AK47s fighting against a well trained Army with tanks, big guns, air power and fully automatic light and heavy machine guns, tune in the nightly news. Any battle experienced soldier will tell you he'd rather face a uniformed Army or an insurgency, they'll answer the uniformed Army. Insurgencies have a way of winning. We won our Independence with an insurgency, adding in our Army later.  But more recently we have seen Egypt and Libya win, and the Syrian insurgents winning again those weapons. 

Small arms can capture larger arms, IEDs are very effective. Add to that no nukes would be used, and roughly half the standing Army would be with the insurgents. 

 

'Red Dawn' is Hollywood, but it is no joke. Ask anyone who was a member of the underground in WW2. 

[JoeyB]

 two I'm guessing you would have a hand gun in your bedside cabinet and not a semi automatic, and yes as I once belonged to a target shooting club, a skeet club and hunted I do know they are different from automatics and for the layman it is just a matter of rate of fire, 

 

But again you want a hand gun for protection fine but a semi automatic! You might take out the perp but in a house with thin plaster walls you will probably take out half your family too.

 

 

Ken

My handguns are semi-automatics. Why would the walls or my family be in more jeopardy with a 9mm or .45 Colt than with a revolver?