Paris attack

[hambone]

This is indeed an act of war and the French are never to be trifled. Nationalistic resolve will seek out and destroy the heinous perpetrators of this affront to humanity and administer appropriate summary justice.

these cowards masquerading as profits of Islam shall be damned and cast to the depths of hell.

[andreww]

This is indeed an act of war and the French are never to be trifled. Nationalistic resolve will seek out and destroy the heinous perpetrators of this affront to humanity and administer appropriate summary justice.

these cowards masquerading as profits of Islam shall be damned and cast to the depths of hell.

I bet they won't. Nightly bombings have proven to be nothing more than an inconvenience to ISIS. If the world wants to rid itself of ISIS we are going to have to step up the action to a lot larger scale. Not sure that France or anyone else has the balls to do that either.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pcardoza]

War is ugly and winning a war requires more ugliness than most people can imagine.    With the instant media coverage of every event in today's world, the general public will be privy to the reality of war and that's why nobody has the balls to make it happen.   Every time a single bomb drops, we see video of bleeding women and children on the internet, 6:00 news, Youtube, CNN, etc., etc., etc.......

WWII had both sides carpet bombing entire cities and towns.   The general public was never allowed to see the results of that effort on the civilian population of those areas.   The collateral damage and casualties were most certainly enormous, but in the end it was either them or us and the military did what had to be done to win the war.   The nuclear attacks on Japan that ended WWII were as horrific as it gets.   Once photos of the results were shown, it quickly became apparent just how horrific.    However, at that time the Japanese were ready to fight on for years and to the death.    In the end, the decision likely saved many millions of lives and casualties, but that still was the beginning of the end of warfare as we knew it. 

These radical extremists have the advantage, in that they have no problem with collateral damage.  In fact they encourage it as a way to get attention!    They also know that by living among innocent civilians, they are effectively shielding themselves from harm in today's world.    

I'm not sure it would ever be possible to totally black out the media from the details of war, but that is the only way for the military to be effective, without causing an uproar around the world.

Edited November 17, 2015 by pcardoza

[436NR]

I fought alongside Muslims in the Middle East. They are good people. Religion itself creates the ideology that will drives a small portion of the population to take their beliefs to the extreme.

Look back through history at the violence that existed in the name of Christianity. Wage war against religion and you end up feeding their cause. The Crusade, the Inquisition, are just a few.

To end this "war", you'll need to remove their cause… the very reason that a few have the power to twist ideology to fan the flames.

Settle in for a long one… if history has shown us anything, it's religious wars last centuries.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mule play]

One of my favorite quotes which captures how I feel about this situation.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."  -B. Pascal

[andreww]

The nuclear attacks on Japan that ended WWII were as horrific as it gets.   Once photos of the results were shown, it quickly became apparent just how horrific.    However, at that time the Japanese were ready to fight on for years and to the death.    In the end, the decision likely saved many millions of lives and casualties, but that still was the beginning of the end of warfare as we knew it. 

I'm beginning to think that would be the best way to go. 

 

To end this "war", you'll need to remove their cause… the very reason that a few have the power to twist ideology to fan the flames.

 

Do they actually have a cause other than not wanting to share the planet with anybody that isn't muslim?

[436NR]

I'm beginning to think that would be the best way to go. 

 

Do they actually have a cause other than not wanting to share the planet with anybody that isn't muslim?

Yes. To rid the Middle East of outside influence that will allow them to live life based on their ideological beliefs.

Fortunately, the civilized world would never allow a human rights tragedy like that to occur. Therefore, unfortunately this is what we have to endure until beliefs and policies evolve.

To end the war, we'll need to change the way people think… globally. That will take time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[andreww]

Yes. To rid the Middle East of outside influence that will allow them to live life based on their ideological beliefs.

Fortunately, the civilized world would never allow a human rights tragedy like that to occur. Therefore, unfortunately this is what we have to endure until beliefs and policies evolve.

To end the war, we'll need to change the way people think… globally. That will take time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good luck with that. You know that there were likely Muslims around the world that were high fiving each other after these attacks right? I know for a fact that they were after 911 as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Beachcomber]

This thread is getting a bit carried away and heading south.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kernow]

A small proportion of the worlds Muslims are evil, of that there is no doubt. In the same way that a small proportion of the worlds Christians, Hindus, Buddists etc are evil. I know some very nice Muslims and have lived near some nasty evil ones, ones who were part of the London bombings around 10 years ago. I didn't know it at the time unfortunately, otherwise things would have turned out very different: I'd probably be doing time for murder but at least dozens of people would have been saved. 

[Guest rg21044]

War is ugly and winning a war requires more ugliness than most people can imagine.    With the instant media coverage of every event in today's world, the general public will be privy to the reality of war and that's why nobody has the balls to make it happen.   Every time a single bomb drops, we see video of bleeding women and children on the internet, 6:00 news, Youtube, CNN, etc., etc., etc.......

WWII had both sides carpet bombing entire cities and towns.   The general public was never allowed to see the results of that effort on the civilian population of those areas.   The collateral damage and casualties were most certainly enormous, but in the end it was either them or us and the military did what had to be done to win the war.   The nuclear attacks on Japan that ended WWII were as horrific as it gets.   Once photos of the results were shown, it quickly became apparent just how horrific.    However, at that time the Japanese were ready to fight on for years and to the death.    In the end, the decision likely saved many millions of lives and casualties, but that still was the beginning of the end of warfare as we knew it. 

These radical extremists have the advantage, in that they have no problem with collateral damage.  In fact they encourage it as a way to get attention!    They also know that by living among innocent civilians, they are effectively shielding themselves from harm in today's world.    

I'm not sure it would ever be possible to totally black out the media from the details of war, but that is the only way for the military to be effective, without causing an uproar around the world.

you are 100 percent correct. People don't have the stomach for what it takes to actually win a war. That's why America hasn't won a war since 1945. Embedded journalists are assuring that it might be another 70 years before we win another one.

[freddy333]

Look lets be clear here, does anyone really think ISIS can be wiped out by military force?

I mean when has this ever worked?

Vietnam? Korea? Ireland? Iraq? Afghanistan?

I support bombings and even troop actions against ISIS but I am not blind enough to think anyone is going to wipe them out any time soon.

And I most certainly do not support a war against Islam simply because it is the religion shared by the few that do perpetuate these atrocities.

Ken

When there is WILL, there is a way.........................& it looks like the French (and Russians) now have the WILL.

[KB]

So just looking on the flip side.

If a hand full of Christian nut jobs went to Pakistan and shot up a lot of civilians they would be justified in putting a few nukes into most of the major American cities?

After all these nut jobs are Christian so they represent all the Christians right?

No?

Thought not.

Ken

 

[kernow]

So just looking on the flip side.

If a hand full of Christian nut jobs went to Pakistan and shot up a lot of civilians they would be justified in putting a few nukes into most of the major American cities?

After all these nut jobs are Christian so they represent all the Christians right?

No?

Thought not.

Ken

 

I agree with what you're saying wholeheartedly. However, Christianity stopped (in general) trying to force people to convert hundreds of years ago. It seems that these Muslims, who kill 'infidels' in the name of Islam, are somewhat behind the times. 

[Mike on a bike]

This thread is getting a bit carried away and heading south.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No not yet really but I'm sure it will in time, just remember to please forget political correctness NO opinion is suppressed here. The fact that some feel a fight /war is in order does nor mean the thread is going south nor does Kens stance or 435NR's mean it is either , all are entitled to there view.

 

PS Oh forgot to mention Freddy333's post , love your crusader pic !

[kernow]

No not yet really but I'm sure it will in time, just remember to please forget political correctness NO opinion is suppressed here. The fact that some feel a fight /war is in order does nor mean the thread is going south nor does Kens stance or 435NR's mean it is either , all are entitled to there view.

 

PS Oh forgot to mention Freddy333's post , love your crusader pic !

Ok then Mike. 

As Kenny Everett's General Cheeseburger once said "We'll round 'em up, put 'em in a field and bomb the bastards"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hnOHPZ51hAc

Happy to say that the French seem to be on the case this morning :)

[andreww]

So just looking on the flip side.

If a hand full of Christian nut jobs went to Pakistan and shot up a lot of civilians they would be justified in putting a few nukes into most of the major American cities?

After all these nut jobs are Christian so they represent all the Christians right?

No?

Thought not.

Ken

 

For one thing, that probably would never happen Ken. And we are not simply talking about isolated incidents either. We are talking about decades worth of bombings on ships, planes and buildings, all directed solely at civilians. These actions seem to be increasing in both frequency and severity.

Tell me one place on earth where you believe there are tens of thousands of Christians plotting to kill Muslims?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KB]

Well Andrew going by this thread the obvious answer is the USA and Canada.

The whole issue I have here is this totally indiscriminate idea of 'Kill em all and let God sort them out'

You believe it will never happen, what do you call the Iraq war?

Ken

[436NR]

The whole point is that labeling all Muslims as terrorists or Islam as an evil religion is not heading in the right direction.

Should terrorist be killed, captured, and punished? Yes!!! Should we label an entire religion or its followers as evil? No!!! Doing so will only galvanize fanatical cause and breed more followers. Kind of a a self fulfilling prophecy!

In essence, you end up fueling their recruiting machine.

My whole point is that this is far more complex than going in and bombing them back into the stone age. Defeat the enemy, don't create it!

It begins by the way we think. At a recent American Football game, during a moment of silence, a fan yelled out, "Muslims suck!" Muslims don't suck! Terrorists suck!!! Knowing who is your enemy is, is the most important thing in defeating them. Be a friend to their recruiting pool and you'll end up strangling their cause. In the end, they'll just die out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pcardoza]

What do the terrorist organizations want?   That will determine the strategy to defeat them.    Are they after world domination?   Or, are they wanting the rest of the world to get out of the middle-east and leave them to themselves?    While I'm no middle east expert by any means, I'm guessing the latter is the right answer.

My solution would be clear and to the point.......   Pull out of the region completely.  Make it crystal clear that once we are out, if we are attacked, the country where attack originates from will be obliterated within 3 days.    Then we need to be ready to do it.    Then make it crystal clear that a second attack will result in the obliteration of Mecca.   And, we need to be ready to do it.   The threat against Mecca will get the attention of the entire Muslim world, especially the Saudis.    They will reel in the terrorists in short order, once they know the rest of the world is serious and has had enough. 

Unfortunately, this kind of response is the only one that extremists understand.   Negotiation is not part of their cultural make-up.

Now, will any of that ever happen?     IMO, NEVER...........

Correct in that all Muslims are not terrorists.    However, virtually all terrorists are Muslims.    The rest of the world is not going to put a stop to this mess we are in.    Muslims themselves, need to rise up against the terrorist organizations and squash them, themselves.    A number of Parisian Muslims spoke out against the attacks in France over the past few days, but that's not enough.   They need to rise up and take back control of their religion.    The rest of the world cannot do it without massive attacks that no one has the stomach for.

The whole point is that labeling all Muslims as terrorists or Islam as an evil religion is not heading in the right direction.

 

Should terrorist be killed, captured, and punished? Yes!!! Should we label an entire religion or its followers as evil? No!!! Doing so will only galvanize fanatical cause and breed more followers. Kind of a a self fulfilling prophecy!

 

In essence, you end up fueling their recruiting machine.

 

My whole point is that this is far more complex than going in and bombing them back into the stone age. Defeat the enemy, don't create it!

 

It begins by the way we think. At a recent American Football game, during a moment of silence, a fan yelled out, "Muslims suck!" Muslims don't suck! Terrorists suck!!! Knowing who is your enemy is, is the most important thing in defeating them. Be a friend to their recruiting pool and you'll end up strangling their cause. In the end, they'll just die out.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike on a bike]

A very complex situation in the Muslim world with the Shiite, Sunnis internal struggle, tribal and national rivalries w/ century old axes to grind. This has proven itself to be beyond any western leader or power to remedy and to put or hope on a solution coming from within is a great leap of faith. We have found however despite the power to take the real-estate we get back to square one or an even worse sit. ala now, maybe pcardoza is on the right track. So we pull out and instead of us killing them they kill each other and let Allah sort it out, OK what could go wrong with that.....................tongue firmly implanted in cheek. So hopefully the guys 435NR knows take the day and all is well or perhaps not and we are deeper in shit than now.
To that end let us one and all watch the video by the learned professor that Steel shared:   https://youtu.be/t_Qpy0mXg8Y?t=8

A real can of worms we have here gents.

[crazyaboutwatches]

I'm not going to get involved with the discussion about war but, my thoughts are definitely with the French right now. It likely caught them off guard, and has struck quite a blow on them, sort of like 9/11 did for us in the United States. They have a lot of mourning for those that passed.

[Beachcomber]

I was in the Navy for more than 23 years, there during Beruit, Gulf War I/II, Sharp Edge, Enduring Freedom, Provide Promise Promise, Provide Comfort etc. been IA'd to Iraq in my 22nd year and been deployed more than 300 days to the Middle East without seeing my family and I'll tell you this is never going to end. It's a big shit sandwich. I hold no ill will towards anyone, I respect all cultures but there is no way to fix this with the current leadership the US has in the Whitehouse. When our government considers that global warming is more of a threat than radical Islam, that's a problem. When the Pope wags a finger at the brutality that is going on, that's a problem. When the First Lady dons a red dress and dances the night away two days after the killings in Paris, that's a problem. The US must take the lead, but unfortunately we won't. I've been living in Europe for more than 10 years partly because I have lost faith in my country. I just hope the world can find a solution.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pcardoza]

If 98% of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims are truly peace loving, only they can take back control of their religion and eradicate the extremists.   We (all non-Muslim countries) need to exit the middle east and determine what to do to protect Israel, even if it means relocating the entire country.

Just remember though......   2% of 1.5 billion is still 30 million!   Hopefully, that 2% is very much exaggerated.....

[danielv2000]

The problem is that wars are no longer fought as they were during the first two world wars. Also, with the constant Twitter feeds and endless news cycles, collateral damage is no longer acceptable.

Israel as careful and precise as they are often hit civilian casualties because the terrorists are hiding and firing within these civilian populations and UN shelters. Every time an innocent life is lost, the Western world is in an uproar and the terrorists are left to fight another day.

It takes courage. France, the USa and Russia hAve to get in there and bomb the [censored] out of Daesh and kill them all. There will be casualties and innocent life lists. That is unfortunate. Now is the time to act. Strike while the will is there and the people have the resolve.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk