Age old question - how much is too much?

[Sogeha]

We all know there are people who's only interest in counterfeit goods is to project themselves as something they are not. I think most or all the people who regularly read this forum are really interested in watches. Maybe some have champagne taste and beer money, maybe not. I get the impression that there are some very wealthy members here.

I like vintage watches mostly. I have a few genuine ones and although I like them, I have to admit that like most things one buys, the buzz only lasted a short time and then they kind of just became something nice I own. The watches I've hunted down parts for, learnt how to do stuff on and found talented, knowledgable friendly guys to help me with still give me a buzz every time I glance at them. Not all my franken watches are expensive, I play about with seiko modding and that's really cheap. I have a seiko with a pilot type dial and dagger hands that took me almost a year to build because I did it all myself with no prior watch repair knowledge. A watch like that is special no matter what the cost of the parts was.

I live in rural Ireland. Very few people I meet would know the difference between a Swiss watch and Canal Street's finest. I was once asked if my genuine Omega Speedmaster was a Fossil. I said "no it's just something I picked up secondhand".

As to where I am on the list, well I think I'm still at every point except 8.

[automatico]

"I think most or all the people who regularly read this forum are really interested in watches."

I like watches and have traded and worked on them for many years as a hobby but did not fool with higher grade replicas and Frankensteins until prices for genuine (rolex) watches and parts went from absurd to insane about 15 years ago. Here is the kicker...I still work on watches and stick a Franko together now and then along with going through the chore of wearing it long enough to 'road test' it but I usually do not wear the same watch for more than a few days nor can I 'fall in love' with any watch, especially an automatic that has to be worn to make it run (no watch winders for me). So...I tend to wear quartz watches, usually Citizen, Seiko, Casio, Mallard (!), etc. Today it is a 'put together' TAG Heuer Formula with a steel case, full glow pissgreen/yellow dial with a red minute chapter, and a bright yellow plastic bezel from a no name cheapo dive watch that happened to fit. It is on a black nylon mesh strap with deployant buckle. It is a 'summertime watch' and looks better than it sounds. The watch was made from parts and probably cost about $40. I would say $25 to $75 each (my actual cost, not retail or selling price) is the average for my 'wearing' watches. I wear one for a while, then swap it out.

The reason how I can put Frankensteins together without breaking the bank is that I have vintage (1530 base) parts, movements, parts watches etc left from when I did a lot of trading and things cost less. Now I will put something together, take it apart after a while or put it away and move on. It's just something to do. I guess at the end of the run I will sell the watches on this forum or part them out.

[mymanmatt]

I never tell people I'm wearing a fake. But if they ask, I say yes, 100% of the time. Hell, sometimes I have to remind myself it's a fake. LOL

[panerai153]

To this day, I have never had someone ask if any of my watches are reps. I do have a colleague who got a pretty crappy 16613 rep. Given to him by a family member who bought it on a trip. One day he saw my 16613 that Matt built or me. He asked me about the watch, and I went through the entire watch, showing him the gen dial, 18k aftermarket bezel, gen insert, crown and ST case and explained to him what it entailed and approximately what it cost. He was very impressed, but felt that it was too costly for him to build one like it. He is still searching for a good 16613 rep, but really likes the idea of a watch for maybe 10% of the cost of a gen. What this proved to me is for the most part outside of the purist that think that owning a "fake watch" is blasphemy, most people are impressed with the quality of reps and are accepting of them.

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[Sogeha]

11 hours ago, panerai153 said:

. What this proved to me is for the most part outside of the purist that think that owning a "fake watch" is blasphemy, most people are impressed with the quality of reps and are accepting of them.

That totally agrees with my experience. I recently bought a Ulysse Nardin Maxi Marine from Toro, partly because it was only a hundred Dollars and partly because the genuine isn't too expensive secondhand. I thought I'd see what I thought before splurging on the gen. As it happens I find the dial fussy and sometimes difficult to read at a glance.

Anyway a friend who likes watches, but isn't really knowledgable admired it. I took it off and passed it to him saying it was quite nice but just a cheap fake. He didn't believe me and even went over to a mutual friend who was with us to ask his opinion. To be fair we know the dial isn't much like the gen, but the watch is nicely finished, has a weight to it and does feel impressive. 

I think a lot depends on where you live and the kind of people you mix with. Last year I spent a lot of time in Hatton Gardens, London (watch and jewellery area). I think a fake would be spotted in seconds there. 

[alterego]

Quite a topic and a wide array of opinions about the fundamental question. How much is toomuch ?

In my humble opinion - as said by many - it's hard to decide when you cross the limit between the right amount of money to put in a rep or Frank. This because it depends on your "angle of viewing" when you think of non gen watches.  For some of us buying a rep or frank has to do with owning a piece that resembles the a gen watch that you definitely like.  Remember that  we are talking about a "copy" of an ariginal. Some 20 years ago replica swatches were called fakes and most people knew these were just that. Then, at a certain moment, wiht the advent of replica forums in the internet, the whole thing changed as with  hundreds and later, thousands of forum members around the world, gave origin to a critical mass that gave a differeent sense to collecting fake watches, the result of which was topic that generates todays discussion. 

If you ask me about the amount of "senssible" money you may spend buying a replica or having a frank built will depend on how you approach the act of owning that piece. You may spend 300 dollaras buying a decent rep and feel as happy with it as when you wrist the real thing (my case). Or you may spend  thousands of dollars to have the nearest to gen replica available, to fulfill your need.

So, I think that deciding about how much is too much to spend in a non gen watch is a metter of individual perception, a decision that is not exclusively made by economic variables.

 

 

 

[Mendota Explorer]

Leaving aside the grail builds, such as 6538, 5513, and 1665 that the masters have created, where do you draw the line?

I find the 6538 very appealing and plan to do a grail build someday. It would be something for life long enjoyment. On the other end of the spectrum, I am attracted to the budget builds that I can tinker with and assemble myself, so those are appealing to me in a hands on, hobby/enjoyment way.

But in the middle there is a grey area, and where do you say no? For instance, is it worth the time and resources to assemble a daily beater 16610 franken using a Startime case, serviced Yuki 3135, and gen dial, hands, crown, and insert? Yes, the cost of the parts is only a fraction of the cost of a used 16610, but is that money better spent as a down payment towards a 16610 or would this be a great quality and reliable watch that you could get years of enjoyment from?

With the 6538 the answer is obvious. Those gen prices are astronomical, so the franken is a no brainer. But with the 16610, I'm not sure if that is money well spent or not. :-/

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[508-Fanatic]

 

I think it boils down to semi-wealthy craftsman, tinkerers and people with disposable income. It's the pursuit of happiness, for many it looks like sourcing the exact parts, haggling, trading and cobbling them together expertly gives great pleasure. Look at that stunning PCG that DBane just built, complete with cal.1530 movement. 

I think there's a sense of pride in it, I know there is for me and my 5513 which is garbage by a lot of standards but yet I've had offers (before they were told what it was, or if I was just phishing for compliments for $12,000 to $17,000)

Still need a good 7206 for it and a less broken insert haha (but hey it's a well faded gen MKII)

[Nightwatch]

Lots of fantastic and well thought-through answers in this thread. Let´s try a pragmatic approach:)

Simply being realistic a good/upperscale vintage build with gen parts in 2016 will always be in the $1500 range and easily place You somewhere between $2000 and $3000 (if not higher).

Talking of Europe AD´s any new or vintage 9k or 10k watch will be between $2000 and $3000 more expensive than in the US (the weak Euro against the USD or CHF since one and a half Years is somewhat deceiving when making comparisons, that doesn´t help us over here or change the fact).

Buying a 9k or 10k watch new at the AD and walking out of the store will also set You back between $2000 and $3000 (exceptions granted if it´s a Rolex, the right model and/or You put a lot of time, effort, marketing and risk into re-sellling it).

Given both latter scenarios, those would leave You with nothing to show for, while an individualized grail-build in the same range is justifiable in my opinion and may very well be worth it. There´s a fascination and thrill when wearing a beauty like the pcg in the post above and while it´s not "the real thing" the lines between rep and gen get somewhat dissipated along the lines (specially if the vintage gen would cost 8k, 17k, 35k, 60k and other crazy prices  that are demanded nowadays and simply make it unaffordable for the common mortal). 

 

[Mendota Explorer]

Yes, I completely agree with those examples where the vintage pieces are easily pushing $10k and higher. On the flip side, I also know that you have to go gen with the 1675. There just isn't any other way with that piece.

But how about something like a dime a dozen sub where the gen is only 4 grand? Or a vintage date or Oyster Perpetual that is only $1,500 to $2,000?

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[Sailordude]

Well, I've owned three gen Rolex's and three rep Rolex's. I've sold all my gen's at a profit and kept all my reps.

My next watch will be another rep. Quite simply because buying a rep doesn't jeopardize my marriage while buying another gen most certainly would... unless it's for my wife.