JF 16610LV vs. Gen early 16610 (orginally thought a 16800)

[Pombok]

 

I've started this post to help our esteemed colleague@Sogeha , the hypothesis is whether the JF 16610LV can be used as a base for a 16800 franken. On to the comparative photos...

 

This 16800 is very aged, the bezel notches are smoother than the 16610 due to wear over time:

 

The rehaut is the same depth, making a sanded and polished 16610 rehaut a legit option.

 

The 16800 bracelet is slightly more polished due to wear over time.

 

The SELs are different with the 16800 having the wings on the underside:

 

The 16800 has drilled lug holes on the outside.

 

Obviously the dial and hands are different and would need to be swapped:

 

The crown on the 16800 is a 702 (smaller) crown versus the 16610 703 trip lock crown which is larger

 

With the legit 3135 movement in the JF 16610, it's seems that with a few parts and a bit of work, the JF could be modded into a 16800.

@Sogeha keep us posted on your progress if you decide to go ahead

 

 

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[pam007]

Would be some work reshaping the lugs and drilling them. Alternative would be to source an ST case with lug holes.

 

Also if you build a 16800 you need to build it with a matte dial or what's the point?

 

 

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[themannier]

I like very much this post, thanks for sharing...

 

I am waiting for the JF 16610 LV....would share also some wrist shots and some pics of the SEL fitment ?   

[Sogeha]

Well drilling the lugs can be done by post and cheque book, matte dial definitely, probably a Yuki as I'm planning on a very beaten up look. An ST case would be better, but the good one for this build is no longer available

[DVNE]

1 hour ago, pam007 said:

Would be some work reshaping the lugs and drilling them. Alternative would be to source an ST case with lug holes.

 

Also if you build a 16800 you need to build it with a matte dial or what's the point?

 

 

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As a previous owner of a ST case, it sucks. CG shape is bad and the lugs are fat. I replaced it with a TC case and had the lugs drilled. It has a much better shape profile.

 

@sogeha I had the same intentions as you but I am waiting for the LN as a base to start out with. I figure I could just vintage lume the jf LN hands.  My next issue is the open 6 datewheel. I regretfully sold a old franken of mines with a open 6 3135 date disk. I had no idea how rare and how hard it is to find one.

[automatico]

"Also if you build a 16800 you need to build it with a matte dial or what's the point?"

 

Agree.

Otherwise it is just a 16610 with lug holes and a bracelet with hoods.

[Pombok]

Just quoting my original post;

 

 

 

Obviously the dial and hands are different and would need to be swapped:

 

 

 

It's a totally different dial, including the Swiss made text less 25

 

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[Pombok]

@manodeoro


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[manodeoro]

My 2 cents about DIALS ...

 

It all depends on "how old" you want your 16800 to be :

- 16800 production years are about 1979/1888.

- "early" 16800s (1979/1984) came with a matte dial with paint/lume indexes (3 sorts of matte dials : MARK I / MARK II / MARK III)

- "late" 16800s (1984/1988) came with a glossy dial with circled indexes (white gold circled).

- glossy dials are supposed to be used only since 1985 but the "Comex" 16800s (1984) came with glossy dials.

So, depending one the period you want your 16800 to be, and the money you want to put on your build you may have to :

- modd your 16610 dial to a 16800 glossy dial (that's what I did)

- modd your 16610 dial to a 16800 matte dial

- swap for an aftermarket dial (only matte available I think)

- swap for a gen dial (matte and/or glossy ... rare and $$$$$$)

 

For my "year 1984" 16800 Comex 16800 I just kept the 16610 dial and modd it :

- popped the indexes off

- sanded the dial to get it completely blank

- chamfered the date window

- designed a 16800 dial with Illustrator (with "COMEX" branding and "SWISS-T<25" text)

- printed the design on white decal paper

- placed on the blank dial

- sprayed 5 coats of glossy varnish

- put the indexes back on

 

I really think I could have done better but ... once again ... that was my very first complete build and a 150$ project altogether

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2017 by manodeoro

[QueTip]

The 16610LV case is all wrong for a 16800. I don't need to compare the JF or look at pics. The only case that has the correct dimensions was the EARLY EARLY ST 3035 case, Phong or gen for obvious reasons. 

 

Dial wise, it's matte or gtfo if you ask me. There's no use in doing a 16800 build with a gloss dial. Might as well just get a TC, drill the holes and throw in a tritium dial and call it a 16610LN. 

 

 

Also, the gen in OPs pics should be a 168000 and not a 16800.

Edited May 12, 2017 by QueTip

[Sogeha]

I was kind of fearing you would say that. An early ST is difficult to find and after $1450 for a Phong case just to start the project, one might as well just buy a genuine. Certainly it will be more expensive, but only possibly twice as expensive as a nice build and I think the gen matte dial versions will appreciate nicely.

[manodeoro]

The 16610LV case is all wrong for a 16800. I don't need to compare the JF or look at pics. The only case that has the correct dimensions was the EARLY EARLY ST 3035 case, Phong or gen for obvious reasons. 
 
Dial wise, it's matte or gtfo if you ask me. There's no use in doing a 16800 build with a gloss dial. Might as well just get a TC, drill the holes and throw in a tritium dial and call it a 16610LN. 
 
 
Also, the gen in OPs pics should be a 168000 and not a 16800.

Apart from the 904L vs 316L and the ref number on the case @6 ... How can one distinguish a 168000 from a 16800 ?
@Pombok
Could your friend check the ref number @6 ?.. 16800 or 168000 ?

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[manodeoro]

Apart from the 904L vs 316L and the ref number on the case @6 ... How can one distinguish a 168000 from a 16800 ?
[mention=78113]Pombok[/mention]
Could your friend check the ref number @6 ?.. 16800 or 168000 ?

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Sorry for self quoting ... and@QueTip will correct me if I write compete [censored]

Movement ???
@Pombok ... could you ask your friend if he can check which movement is in his watch ?
If I'm true ... 16800=3035 / 168000=3135

I think it can be checked even whitout opening the watch.
On a 16800 the crown should sit about the center height of the case.
On a 168000 the crown should sit a little lower ... the 3135 movement being a little thicker.



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[Pombok]

I'll be able to check the movement on Monday by the crown height, but I won't be opening his case .


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[jigelow]

I don't believe the 3135 appeared until the 16610. The 3035 still resides in the 168000, to my knowledge. 

 

All youd have have to do to check is change the date. If it goes clockwise, it's a 3135. Counterclockwise, it's a 3035. 

Edited May 13, 2017 by jigelow

[manodeoro]

I don't believe the 3135 appeared until the 16610. The 3035 still resides in the 168000, to my knowledge. 
 
All youd have have to do to check is change the date. If it goes clockwise, it's a 3135. Counterclockwise, it's a 3035. 

+ 100

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I don't believe the 3135 appeared until the 16610. The 3035 still resides in the 168000, to my knowledge. 
 
All youd have have to do to check is change the date. If it goes clockwise, it's a 3135. Counterclockwise, it's a 3035. 

@Pombok ... if you can check the engravement in the case @6 you only need to remove the bracelet.
Its the only place, as far as I know, where the 168000 have the "+0".

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[Pombok]

The movement flips the date by rotating the crown clockwise. Does this mean it has the 3135 movement?


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[Tribal]

What about Wings on the SEL???

SEL means Solid end Link, a 16800 has no SEL's.

A 16800 has a different case than a 16610 the Rehaut is smaller.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Tribal

[manodeoro]

On 15/05/2017 at 1:15 PM, Pombok said:

The movement flips the date by rotating the crown clockwise. Does this mean it has the 3135 movement?


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NOPE ... or unsure

 

You have to set TIME (not date) :

- counterclockwise >>> 3035

- clock wise >>> 3135

And to be completely certain you have to check the engravement @6 ... 

So could you please ask your friend ?

9 hours ago, Tribal said:

What about Wings on the SEL???

SEL means Solid end Link, a 16800 has no SEL's.

A 16800 has a different case than a 16610 the Rehaut is smaller.

 

 

 

I suppose when the PO writes "Wings on SEL" he refers to the "wings" of the endlinks

 

 

If the only differences between a 16800 case and a 16610 case proved to be only :

- the height of the rehaut

- the "Rolex ..." engravement on the rehaut

- the drilled lugs

then I would consider that, albeit QueTip clear-cut opinion, that the JF16610LN could be a good start watch for a 16800 build (not Franken of course).

 

@QueTip ... You said everything is wrong on a JF16610 case for such a build

I'm not tying to argue with you ... I am just here to learn about watches

So could you please explain us what is definitely so wrong (besides the rehaut height, the engravement and the non-drilled lugs) ?

Edited May 17, 2017 by manodeoro

[Pombok]

So, new development, I managed to persuade the owner to let me remove the bracelet to check the model and serial numbers. It's a 16610 L series from 1989, it is not a 16800.

My apologies for the mistake and thank you to the super sleuths who provided the queries.

I will see if I can change the thread title.


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One interesting fact about the watch, is that it no longer has any lume whatsoever. The original substance for the lume had a half-life of 15 years and as such is now depleted.


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[Sogeha]

Well that explains why the rehaut looks the same depth as yours?

Ive edited the title for you.

[Pombok]

Well that explains why the rehaut looks the same depth as yours

Ive edited the title for you.

 

Yes it does, thanks mate. Sorry for the confusion, it was the "SWISS-T 25" dial text that had me on the wrong path.

 

 

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[DVNE]

I saw a member on RWI remove the rehaut engraving already and it looks great. Aside from the wokky-ness of the rehaut, it is a great base to use. Commission a RWG legend to drill out the lug holes and voila, swap the hands and dial to gen tritium pieces and you got yourself a decent franken.

[manodeoro]

I saw a member on RWI remove the rehaut engraving already and it looks great. Aside from the wokky-ness of the rehaut, it is a great base to use. Commission a RWG legend to drill out the lug holes and voila, swap the hands and dial to gen tritium pieces and you got yourself a decent franken.

Sanding the engravement on rehaut is a 10 minutes work ... very easy.

Drilling the lugs ?...
All you need is a 30$ "dremel kike", a 50$ drill stand, a 15$ adapter and a 10$ st of 1.2mm HS drill bits ... 105$ altogether.
So get an old cheapie or a canal street, ruin it while training, then get your nice 16610 and drill the lugs yourself.
Just get your 93150 bracelet and endlinks before drilling so you can drill in the right position.

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[preacher62]

I appreciated DVNE's observation of the rehaut.  It is tooooo wokky.  I would not wear that watch when the TC is readily available.  It would drive me crazy every time I looked at it.