Explosions Manchester England?

[dieselpower]

17 minutes ago, HaydenM said:

 

Main difference being that when a nutter in prison hears voices he's just that, a nutter. When a person can read a holy book or the example of a prophet and be told to kill kaffir it's surely insanity, but of a different sort.


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IMHO it's insanity of the same sort.

 

If you believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden you're a nutter. If you believe Jesus was the son of a virgin and his father father was 'God' you're a good Christian.... It beggars belief!

[HaydenM]

 
 
IMHO it's insanity of the same sort.
 
If you believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden you're a nutter. If you believe Jesus was the son of a virgin and his father father was 'God' you're a good Christian.... It beggars belief!

Somebody thinking there are fairies in their garden probably won't kill me for it. Just pragmatic.


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[dieselpower]

Agreed. They 'probably' won't. But I bet if millions believed there were fairies and you said there weren't there'd be a few who would kill you for it. And that's the problem.

[Sogeha]

Jesus refused to be drawn on the subject and never claimed to be the son of god in the sense that anyone else wasn't. In the original Greek it is abundantly clear that Mary is described as a young woman, not a virgin. In Jewish society of that time one wasn't really a man until married and it is doubtful anyone would have listened to a boy preaching. All pretty mainstream Christian theology and has been for the last hundred years or so, yet it will come as news to many. Then again Jesus wasn't a blued eyed blond and Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion.

 

I don't care what anyone believes, my father is an Orthodox priest, my eldest daughter is a secular Muslim like her mother was, I'm neither. We can sit down and talk, laugh and love together because that is what decent sane people do. If you can't do that and have to kill for your beliefs, I still don't care what you believe, to me it is irrelevant, you are murdering scum

[Mike on a bike]

This has happened before it will happen again.

  

 Of course with different players and vehicles and I use vehicle as the Nazi's were not religious per say but conducted genocide to a hellish extent. I will give you religion is the vehicle of choice most of the time. ( and no diesel religion ain't going away yet so that's out) But no point looking back at all nor to far forward for the next one.  So let us be the pragmatist we are, how to we stop this one?

 

 Don't think the turning the other cheek gonna help.............. no that's out, you send your kid to the next concert they are going to blow up, I think not. OK cheek thing out the window.

 

  We could go old testament on it eye for eye sort of deal sure the SAS could go in and kill a whole bunch of ISIS guys here and there around the world. I'm sure if you talk to a few families who lost little ones they would be all for it. If it were my kid I'd sign up to do it myself and don't take the high road bull with me here if it were yours' you would. (or at least you should) Doubt that gonna happen to bad to would not do much good long term(to small scale) but surely send a message. You know the French sent fighters over after attacks on them to blow up the bad guys they got it done, it did not stop.

 

  Then again we could go on fighting as we are now with one hand tied behind our backs feeding the military industrial complex. (they love this shit , you know this) We are basically funding both sides, with tax dollar on one and petrol dollars for the other. This sucks but it is what we are doing now, have no doubt.

 

 You see this problem is complex the causes are irrelevant: who drew the map of the middle east after WWI, no opportunities for Arab youth, whatever doesn't really matter, how are we going to stop this one is the question.

 

Now the high minded discussions of this thread have made be proud to counted among you, but we got a big problem here gents and going back and forth over the merits of having or not having religion ain't gonna get'r done. Neither is the peaceful coexistence of multiple religions in your little world, it ain't working out side of it.  Blow up kids at a concert, case and point.

 

Did I miss something? Do you have a a plan/scenario I missed , I'm all ears..................

 

 

[HaydenM]

2 hours ago, Mike on a bike said:

This has happened before it will happen again.

  

 Of course with different players and vehicles and I use vehicle as the Nazi's were not religious per say but conducted genocide to a hellish extent. I will give you religion is the vehicle of choice most of the time. ( and no diesel religion ain't going away yet so that's out) But no point looking back at all nor to far forward for the next one.  So let us be the pragmatist we are, how to we stop this one?

 

 Don't think the turning the other cheek gonna help.............. no that's out, you send your kid to the next concert they are going to blow up, I think not. OK cheek thing out the window.

 

  We could go old testament on it eye for eye sort of deal sure the SAS could go in and kill a whole bunch of ISIS guys here and there around the world. I'm sure if you talk to a few families who lost little ones they would be all for it. If it were my kid I'd sign up to do it myself and don't take the high road bull with me here if it were yours' you would. (or at least you should) Doubt that gonna happen to bad to would not do much good long term(to small scale) but surely send a message. You know the French sent fighters over after attacks on them to blow up the bad guys they got it done, it did not stop.

 

  Then again we could go on fighting as we are now with one hand tied behind our backs feeding the military industrial complex. (they love this [censored] , you know this) We are basically funding both sides, with tax dollar on one and petrol dollars for the other. This sucks but it is what we are doing now, have no doubt.

 

 You see this problem is complex the causes are irrelevant: who drew the map of the middle east after WWI, no opportunities for Arab youth, whatever doesn't really matter, how are we going to stop this one is the question.

 

Now the high minded discussions of this thread have made be proud to counted among you, but we got a big problem here gents and going back and forth over the merits of having or not having religion ain't gonna get'r done. Neither is the peaceful coexistence of multiple religions in your little world, it ain't working out side of it.  Blow up kids at a concert, case and point.

 

Did I miss something? Do you have a a plan/scenario I missed , I'm all ears..................

 

 

 

The difference being that in WW2 the people had no qualms saying that the problem was germans. The UK has a modern history of suppressing justice for fear of being called "racist" for investigating adherents to a religion, just look at Rotherham, 1400 young girls and it was known about for years but the police did not want to be called racist. The current status quo is not working, but national newspapers like the independent and mayors like Kahn say that the British people need to accept that the masses of people with a frankly disgusting ideology that the political and financial elite have brought in for decades will try to kill you, the same thing has been said in France. Well I can't say I'm sorry to Kahn to say that young girls being slaughtered should not be "part and parcel" of life in the west, we're better than that. 
Though I myself am certainly not religious and advocate against many of its tenets I accept as a rational pragmatist that it's not going anywhere, but I have yet to see buddhists blow up the tube or sikhs bow down people on the streets of London. Not all religions are equal.

[Sogeha]

To a large extent I'm with @Mike on a bike if our political leaders who are to a man (or woman) doing such a jolly splendid job elsewhere, were to stop playing both ends against the middle the solution would be more simple.

 

Rats are intelligent creatures, there is much I admire and respect about them. In the distant past I have had one or two pet rats I was very fond of. Yet if I get rats in my barn or worse, my house, I don't agonize over what to do, I don't consider over much where the rats came from, what motivates the rats. I eliminate the rats because they are vermin and I do so with any tools available. A few rats, I might take the BB gun out, or send the dogs in. More rats, traps and poison go down. 

 

There are I think about 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, including a good few brothers on this here forum and my daughter. She is a neurosurgeon by the way and her best friend is Jewish. If being a Muslim was that big a problem I think we would know about it. The unreligious of all shades account for only about a billion, so the vast majority of the global population are religious. it is not 1.6 billion Muslims that are a problem it is a few thousand vermin.

 

Oh and did anyone notice that 68 schoolchildren died in a school bus bombing yesterday which was carried out by the same species of vermin?

[kernow]

Indeed, not all religions are equal. However what is currently happening is due to extremists, not the general masses. I am not religious is any way, I actually have a deep seated distrust of all religions. I don't need someone telling how to live my life righteously - my parents instilled a sense of right and wrong in me. If I ever decided to act a certain way it would be because I'd thought it through and not because of some higher order calling me. 

[HaydenM]

I most certainly agree that it is not all Muslims. One of the people with whom I live is only a recent apostate but to say that it is only a few vermin is a gross under representation of the amount who justify their actions. I believe it was pew polls which places it at 20% of British Muslims believe that suicide bombing against the kaffir is justifiable, and the numbers get worse when looking at younger generations. 1 in 5 Muslims in the U.K. Thought the 7/7 bombings were justified while 31% of British young Muslims thought they were justified.
In Austria 1 in 5 Australian Muslims believe the death penalty should apply to apostasy, 25% in the US think that violence is justified for blasphemy and offending the Islamic faith.

I 100% accept that it is not a problem of 1.6 billion people. Many, especially in the west are Muslim effectively in name only but when 20+% of those living in the west hold imho disgusting views as to what should be done to the kaffir the problem is not "a few thousand vermin" it's many thousands of vermin and even more who will not be vermin, but will be happy when vermin do what vermin do.


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[MAHLER]

for my point of view the problem is the human factor, not the religion for it's self. Only a tragic mix in the life of good people and bad people in the same place, like a serial killer that walk same street close to other innocent people.

Tapatalk

[HaydenM]

for my point of view the problem is the human factor, not the religion for it's self. Only a tragic mix in the life of good people and bad people in the same place, like a serial killer that walk same street close to other innocent people.

Tapatalk

If that were the case would we not see the exact same distribution of terrorist attacks as the population of any place? If terrorism is just a natural occurrence of any group of people then why do we not see a whole bunch of Aussie farm blokes blowing themselves up here down under?


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[MAHLER]

If that were the case would we not see the exact same distribution of terrorist attacks as the population of any place? If terrorism is just a natural occurrence of any group of people then why do we not see a whole bunch of Aussie farm blokes blowing themselves up here down under?


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I put aside the things I know about doing research on crime and Islamic terrorism (15 years have passed and my life has taken me far away from these bad things). What I'm saying (from a country where there is political terrorism and organized crime) I just say that there are obscure things in all men. Can be money, a beautiful woman, can be the football team, can be politics, can be religion but it is just the excuse to kill. It is not the money, not the women's fault, it is not the fault of football, it is not the fault of politics or religion. Some people would kill so any reason could serve to justify bad action. But this is only my point of view and not the universal truth.

Tapatalk

[HaydenM]

I put aside the things I know about doing research on crime and Islamic terrorism (15 years have passed and my life has taken me far away from these bad things). What I'm saying (from a country where there is political terrorism and organized crime) I just say that there are obscure things in all men. Can be money, a beautiful woman, can be the football team, can be politics, can be religion but it is just the excuse to kill. It is not the money, not the women's fault, it is not the fault of football, it is not the fault of politics or religion. Some people would kill so any reason could serve to justify bad action. But this is only my point of view and not the universal truth.

Tapatalk

Though I agree to a point it then just raises the point of why Oft Arab, African or certain parts of Asian men cannot suppress these urges of terror while the rest of us do. Not really a line of reasoning I think bears fruit.


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[Nanuq]

It seems to me the very nature of religion is to get ignorant masses "connected" to an unknowable Being.  Those who are in the inner circle have already made progress down the paths of making this Being more knowable. 

 

Having this knowledge, they are confronted with a moral dilemma: to use it for good, or for evil.  They realize that knowledge is power, so too often they convey this knowledge to the ignorant masses with a little twist added in.  Invariably, this twist supplements the power of the one conveying it.  Power corrupts.

 

The ignorant masses confront no such moral dilemmas.  They are told to obey or face dire consequences, spelled out by the ones doing the twisting to their own ends.

 

This gives us ignorant masses inculcated with "truths" corrupted by evil leaders with agendas.  These masses dare not disobey, for fear of the often-imaginary consequences.  They will likewise not listen to other religious leaders than the ones doing the twisting, for fear of creating an offense.

 

This gives corrupted men incredible power over masses of ignorant followers.  Among these masses will be extremist devotees, ready to do anything to please their leaders.

 

So it seems to me the answer is to isolate these leaders that corrupt the message to their own end, and eliminate them.

 

Problem solved?  No.  We still have those poisoned by the erstwhile "leaders".  They need to be talked back off the ledge, so to speak.  But who does the talking?  All too often it's the next generation of leaders with an agenda. 

 

It's corruption in the hearts of men that produces this carnage, and as long as that corruption exists, these attacks will too.

 

Ironically, religion claims to possess the secret to eliminating this corruption.  It's all lies.  If you want to change a man's heart it's done through personal relationships.

 

[Sogeha]

2 hours ago, HaydenM said:

I most certainly agree that it is not all Muslims. One of the people with whom I live is only a recent apostate but to say that it is only a few vermin is a gross under representation of the amount who justify their actions. I believe it was pew polls which places it at 20% of British Muslims believe that suicide bombing against the kaffir is justifiable, and the numbers get worse when looking at younger generations. 1 in 5 Muslims in the U.K. Thought the 7/7 bombings were justified while 31% of British young Muslims thought they were justified.
In Austria 1 in 5 Australian Muslims believe the death penalty should apply to apostasy, 25% in the US think that violence is justified for blasphemy and offending the Islamic faith.

I 100% accept that it is not a problem of 1.6 billion people. Many, especially in the west are Muslim effectively in name only but when 20+% of those living in the west hold imho disgusting views as to what should be done to the kaffir the problem is not "a few thousand vermin" it's many thousands of vermin and even more who will not be vermin, but will be happy when vermin do what vermin do.


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On the clear understanding that this is nothing more that an interesting way to spend a coffee break, that I bear no malice against you or anyone else who disagrees with me. I long ago got used to being in a minority of one on many subjects. I will respond.

 

I will accept your figures for the moment, though I believe that while one can reasonably argue any position in a discussion, facts should be established as such and statics are easily manipulated, so perhaps we should always question how objectively statics were gathered. My philosophy tutor told us to question everything, perhaps unsurprisingly I was the only one that asked why.

 

The figures you quote are indeed alarming, yet let's look a little further. For many year science believed the adolescent brain to be essentially an adult one. Yet many parents over many generations have felt there was something seriously wrong with their children during this time period. Recent breakthroughs in neuroscience and neurology have revealed that the teen years encompass a vitality important stage of brain development. The adolescent brain undergoes among other things a period of "housekeeping" where redundant neural pathways are deleted. Furthermore synapses in a healthy adult brain which much like wiring, carry electrical charges and need insulating. In the brain a fatty substance called myelin fills that requirement. This is created over time taking many years. The process starts at the back of the brain and slowly moves forward meaning the frontal and pre frontal cortices are the last beneficiaries. These are strongly connected with insight, empathy and risk taking. The results are time honoured complaints against adolescents of untidiness, disorganisation, seeking of novelty, self discovery and of relevance here, mood swings, risk taking and aggression.

 

All of the above is a long winded way of saying, if teenagers are giving alarming answers on surveys perhaps it is because they are immature, prone to giving answers that are aimed at getting a rise out of the questioner, generally more disposed to knee jerk reactions, violence and feeling alienated than older adults. I was by my own admission bat shit crazy as a young man, and also given to resorting to violence much more quickly than I would now, both on a personal level and advocating it as a solution to world problems. Currently the scum we are dealing with are largely from Muslim backgrounds, yet there are still other groups waging terror who are not Muslim. When I was young, we had the Red Brigade, Baader Mienhof, Basque Separatists and our British problem of the IRA. If the younger me had been asked about dealing with the IRA, the answer might well have involved strafe bombing the whole of Ireland and adding it the British fishing rights. Such is the nature of young men.

 

Add to this that many young feel sidelined from society as do many Muslims, so if you are young and Muslim you carry a double load. 

 

In short if they say they support X, Y and Z, shrug and shake your head knowing that is how young people act. On the other hand if they actually act on these thoughts, then they should face criminal charges and in fact there is currently an arrest every day on terror related charges in the U.K. Many of those arrested can be and are reformed into reasonable citizens. Others, the more hard line need removing from society.

[HaydenM]

 
On the clear understanding that this is nothing more that an interesting way to spend a coffee break, that I bear no malice against you or anyone else who disagrees with me. I long ago got used to being in a minority of one on many subjects. I will respond.
 
I will accept your figures for the moment, though I believe that while one can reasonably argue any position in a discussion, facts should be established as such and statics are easily manipulated, so perhaps we should always question how objectively statics were gathered. My philosophy tutor told us to question everything, perhaps unsurprisingly I was the only one that asked why.
 
The figures you quote are indeed alarming, yet let's look a little further. For many year science believed the adolescent brain to be essentially an adult one. Yet many parents over many generations have felt there was something seriously wrong with their children during this time period. Recent breakthroughs in neuroscience and neurology have revealed that the teen years encompass a vitality important stage of brain development. The adolescent brain undergoes among other things a period of "housekeeping" where redundant neural pathways are deleted. Furthermore synapses in a healthy adult brain which much like wiring, carry electrical charges and need insulating. In the brain a fatty substance called myelin fills that requirement. This is created over time taking many years. The process starts at the back of the brain and slowly moves forward meaning the frontal and pre frontal cortices are the last beneficiaries. These are strongly connected with insight, empathy and risk taking. The results are time honoured complaints against adolescents of untidiness, disorganisation, seeking of novelty, self discovery and of relevance here, mood swings, risk taking and aggression.
 
All of the above is a long winded way of saying, if teenagers are giving alarming answers on surveys perhaps it is because they are immature, prone to giving answers that are aimed at getting a rise out of the questioner, generally more disposed to knee jerk reactions, violence and feeling alienated than older adults. I was by my own admission bat [censored] crazy as a young man, and also given to resorting to violence much more quickly than I would now, both on a personal level and advocating it as a solution to world problems. Currently the scum we are dealing with are largely from Muslim backgrounds, yet there are still other groups waging terror who are not Muslim. When I was young, we had the Red Brigade, Baader Mienhof, Basque Separatists and our British problem of the IRA. If the younger me had been asked about dealing with the IRA, the answer might well have involved strafe bombing the whole of Ireland and adding it the British fishing rights. Such is the nature of young men.
 
Add to this that many young feel sidelined from society as do many Muslims, so if you are young and Muslim you carry a double load. 
 
In short if they say they support X, Y and Z, shrug and shake your head knowing that is how young people act. On the other hand if they actually act on these thoughts, then they should face criminal charges and in fact there is currently an arrest every day on terror related charges in the U.K. Many of those arrested can be and are reformed into reasonable citizens. Others, the more hard line need removing from society.

Once again I'd have to say I partially agree. There is of course no shortage of violent tossers around just jonesing for a fight, one need only look at American AntiFa movements but it is a common talking point that amongst these immigrant communities that as time passes they grow more mellow and more assimilated which I would say some statistics point to the inverse.
As for the "if they act on these thoughts" logic it simply doesn't work with a Muslim terrorist, they have to seriously screw up their MO for you to catch them alive when the goal is martyrdom. Saying "if they act on it we'll prosecute them" just leads to a pile of young dead girls and a dead terrorist too.


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[Sogeha]

Well I think there is a growing number of Muslims both in the West and in majority Muslim countries who are openly saying this behaviour is not something they can condone or see as compatible with Islam. 

 

The figures of arrests every day in in the U.K., show that pulling them for acting on thoughts of terrorist activity are working. We haven't seen anywhere near a terrorist attack every day, in fact the authorities have been expecting one for two years. Generally it is computer surveillance that gets them often before their radicalisation is complete. On a number of occasions it has been the Muslim community or even their own families that have given them up to the authorities. On the other hand a policy of arresting and questioning people for being Muslim and of brown skin tone will only lead to mass alienation and drive willing recruits into the hands of these manipulative scum. We need to target the core of these terrorist groups and I'm all for using extreme prejudice there. On the edges of sympathy a hearts and mind approach will bring better results.

 

I would urge everyone that if you see a person of different ethnicity to yourself on the street or cueing to be served, smile, maybe say hello or nice day. It will not change the mind of a terrorist, but it might just make someone feel less invisible and more included. Hell why even bother with ethnicity, let's just be nice to each other and demonstrate that our way is better.

[HaydenM]

Well I think there is a growing number of Muslims both in the West and in majority Muslim countries who are openly saying this behaviour is not something they can condone or see as compatible with Islam. 
 
The figures of arrests every day in in the U.K., show that pulling them for acting on thoughts of terrorist activity are working. We haven't seen anywhere near a terrorist attack every day, in fact the authorities have been expecting one for two years. Generally it is computer surveillance that gets them often before their radicalisation is complete. On a number of occasions it has been the Muslim community or even their own families that have given them up to the authorities. On the other hand a policy of arresting and questioning people for being Muslim and of brown skin tone will only lead to mass alienation and drive willing recruits into the hands of these manipulative scum. We need to target the core of these terrorist groups and I'm all for using extreme prejudice there. On the edges of sympathy a hearts and mind approach will bring better results.
 
I would urge everyone that if you see a person of different ethnicity to yourself on the street or cueing to be served, smile, maybe say hello or nice day. It will not change the mind of a terrorist, but it might just make someone feel less invisible and more included. Hell why even bother with ethnicity, let's just be nice to each other and demonstrate that our way is better.

As somebody who has read much of the Quran and many of the hadiths I have to disagree with these actions being incompatible with Islam, I don't know of a single thing that ISIS does that the prophet himself would not have.

As for being nicer to people, absolutely. I come across many Muslims every day, currently living in a heavily Muslim populated area and I've no issue with many of them and if they do me no wrong then live and let live as far as I'm concerned.


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[Sogeha]

I have likewise read the Quran and Hadith as well as having a degree in Christian theology. Just because something can be found in scripture does not mean that a majority of adherents choice to take it literally. Take that as the illogic of religion or of the human condition as you will, but it is never the less true. Perhaps it is a good sign that more Muslims are choosing to not take a literal view of every word of the Quran, but instead take a more enlightened view.

 

"The Devil himself may site scripture to his own ends". William Shakespeare

 

The clip is funny because it is factually correct yet we choose not to follow it. The Old Testament is scripture to Jews, Christians and Muslims

 

 

[HaydenM]

I have likewise read the Quran and Hadith as well as having a degree in Christian theology. Just because something can be found in scripture does not mean that a majority of adherents choice to take it literally. Take that as the illogic of religion or of the human condition as you will, but it is never the less true. Perhaps it is a good sign that more Muslims are choosing to not take a literal view of every word of the Quran, but instead take a more enlightened view.
 
"The Devil himself may site scripture to his own ends". William Shakespeare
 
The clip is funny because it is factually correct yet we choose not to follow it. The Old Testament is scripture to Jews, Christians and Muslims
 
 

Brilliant show and some wonderful point from Bartlet. I'm more than happy to have people not taking holy books literally. The problem comes in the scriptural differences between a book like the bible and the Quran. Though all claim divine inspiration the Quran makes the largest claims of being the literal word of god through the messenger (first pillar) and that it is the final perfect book.
When the shahada is the primary tenet of the Islamic faith and the revocation of the shahada is punished by death under Islamic law it is much much harder to reform. One of the reasons that the bible was reformed was because it claims to be the written word of many men, and men are fallible, Allah and the messenger, not so in the views of adherents.


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[Sogeha]

All true and yet there is no central authority other than the Quran in Islam, just as there is no central authority other than the bible in Christianity and both are open to different interpretations.  As with the church that divided first North from South, then East from West, So too did Islam divide and has many, many branches and flavours. 

 

There isn't a Christian not under excommunication from someone and there isn't a Muslim not under fatwah from someone. As with all religions there are tolerant and liberal ends and intolerant extremists.

 

In my home town the Jewish population has shrunk to the point it could no longer maintain a synagogue and were looking to move all services to Leeds. The local mosque heard of this and said, hold on a minute, our holy day is Friday. We don't use the place on Saturday, have your services in our building. This has been great for the community.  Unfortunately it is not the kind of thing newspapers wish to print as they are looking for scandal to drive sales.

[pcardoza]

This is a problem that the WEST can never solve.    Not Western Europe, not the USA, not NATO, not the UN.    This problem must be solved by the government leaders of the countries who harbor these extremists and allow them to operate and proliferate.    They will out-wait and outlast any attempts from outside forces to defeat them, as we have seen over and over in the last few decades.

 

What the West can do is isolate those countries and pen them in, until those leaders make it happen.    Yes, that'll result in many "good" people suffering along the way, but following the present strategy is clearly not working.   The level of hatred that these extremists harbor against anyone not directly in line with their beliefs is unimaginable to those of us outsiders.    Unfortunately, this is not a war that can be won with any substantial level of compassion.   We'll be fighting it this way for many, many generations if the strategy remains the same.

[HaydenM]

A brilliant act to hear. And while we're on a west wing theme:

It is certain that both are open to interpretation but once again we come to a core difference between the books. The bible is a fairytale to the Quran's cookbook. The bible is known for long allegorical stories and metaphors. It is very much a book that must be read and studied and pondered. The Quran I would say far less so. The Quran is both drastically shorter and drastically more blunt. It oft bluntly says the rules in a way far less open to interpretation.


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[Sogeha]

Well this has been an enjoyable exchange. Thank you to all who took part, especially @HaydenM and @dieselpower. I think to continue would bore other members to tears and make us look much more divided and argumentative than we actually are to new members and visitors.

 

It is time to place the emphasis back on the lamentable loss of innocent young lives.

 

Peace,

Paul

[HaydenM]

Well this has been an enjoyable exchange. Thank you to all who took part, especially [mention=41328]HaydenM[/mention] and [mention=2563]dieselpower[/mention]. I think to continue would bore other members to tears and make us look much more divided and argumentative than we actually are to new members and visitors.
 
It is time to place the emphasis back on the lamentable loss of innocent young lives.
 
Peace,
Paul

Of course Paul, was a lovely educated conversation and you were surely a gent in disagreement. Have a wonderful day.


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