Little White Lies We're Supposed To Tolerate?

[Pugwash]

....aaa ya had to take Mini Morris example, with so many small Italian and French cars around

Ok, put a Dino 308 engine in the running gear of a 2CV. Better?

[FxrAndy]

What you really wish to know is whether those movements are Chinese made Swiss ETA produced by an ETA-owned factory in China or the Chinese made copy of the Chines made Eta movement made by a Chinese factory that makes copies of Chines made ETA movements that otherwise ETA calls "Swiss", right? Simple.

We would all like an answer to that but i am not sure if i would understand it.

[tvt]

Just to clear the noob question out of the way:

It is likely (though who klnows these days) that "Swiss ETA 2836" movements are in fact genuine ETA, thoughy not Swiss. This gets into a whole speculation game that NO ONE really knows the answer to. Not movement experts like The Zigmeister, not those of us who have been around for years, probably not even the dealers. This is as close to "fact" as we get here:

ETA owns factories in Asia, they produce genuine ETA movements though they cannot be labled "Swiss" because they are produced in Asia. There is debate over whether the parts are sent back and assembled in Switzerland and then qualify as being "Swiss" but I personally do not believe that to be the case because to be officially called "Swiss" a movement must have the majority of parts MADE in Switzerland, and then be fully assembled in Switzerland. MAYBE some parts are made in Asia, others is Switzerland and then the movement is assembled in Swizterland out of all of these various parts... thus qualifying as "swiss" but who knows. What we thik we know and people more or less agree on is that the ETA movements that dealers call "Swiss ETA" are in fact genuine ETA but coming out of the ETA Asian factories. I do not believe any of them are "Swiss" in any true sense of the word, but again, speculation.

So it is quite likely that the low end, cheap ETA movements such as the 2836 are in fact genuine ETA, just not SWISS ETA... but made to the exact same quality. I wish dealers would simply cal them "Genuine ETA" instead of Swiss but I doubt that will ever change.

Now, when you get to higher cost ETA movements such as the 2892 or the 7750 then you see the shift happen. Most all fakes do not house genuine ETA movements at this level but rather Asian copies. In the case of the 7750 the dealers tend to be honest for whatever reason. You will see then lebeled as "Asian 7750", "Asian copy 7750" or sometimes, confusingly, "Asian ETA 7750". The last one would really be a lie because there is nothing ETA about the movement and it im[plies that it is made in an Asian ETA factory, which it is not. Confusing enough?

When it comes to the 2892 movement the dealers often flat out lie, calling them "ETA 2892" or even "Genuine Swiss ETA 2892" and in fact they are copies made in China, not having ANYTHING to do with ETA and not built to the same quality. I USED to think that you could tell when a watch had a gen movement or not based on cost, but dealers sometimes charge more and tell you it is genuine, when in fact it is not. And the "Seagull" movemnet which is the Chinese copy of the 2892 tend to suck and break.

It is all a confuysing mess and the dealers are not equal across the board. Some movements they use proper terms and others they use deceptive terms and it becomes harder and harder to know which is which.

[eddhead]

Just to clear the noob question out of the way:

It is likely (though who klnows these days) that "Swiss ETA 2836" movements are in fact genuine ETA, thoughy not Swiss. This gets into a whole speculation game that NO ONE really knows the answer to. Not movement experts like The Zigmeister, not those of us who have been around for years, probably not even the dealers. This is as close to "fact" as we get here:

ETA owns factories in Asia, they produce genuine ETA movements though they cannot be labled "Swiss" because they are produced in Asia. There is debate over whether the parts are sent back and assembled in Switzerland and then qualify as being "Swiss" but I personally do not believe that to be the case because to be officially called "Swiss" a movement must have the majority of parts MADE in Switzerland, and then be fully assembled in Switzerland. MAYBE some parts are made in Asia, others is Switzerland and then the movement is assembled in Swizterland out of all of these various parts... thus qualifying as "swiss" but who knows. What we thik we know and people more or less agree on is that the ETA movements that dealers call "Swiss ETA" are in fact genuine ETA but coming out of the ETA Asian factories. I do not believe any of them are "Swiss" in any true sense of the word, but again, speculation.

So it is quite likely that the low end, cheap ETA movements such as the 2836 are in fact genuine ETA, just not SWISS ETA... but made to the exact same quality. I wish dealers would simply cal them "Genuine ETA" instead of Swiss but I doubt that will ever change.

Now, when you get to higher cost ETA movements such as the 2892 or the 7750 then you see the shift happen. Most all fakes do not house genuine ETA movements at this level but rather Asian copies. In the case of the 7750 the dealers tend to be honest for whatever reason. You will see then lebeled as "Asian 7750", "Asian copy 7750" or sometimes, confusingly, "Asian ETA 7750". The last one would really be a lie because there is nothing ETA about the movement and it im[plies that it is made in an Asian ETA factory, which it is not. Confusing enough?

When it comes to the 2892 movement the dealers often flat out lie, calling them "ETA 2892" or even "Genuine Swiss ETA 2892" and in fact they are copies made in China, not having ANYTHING to do with ETA and not built to the same quality. I USED to think that you could tell when a watch had a gen movement or not based on cost, but dealers sometimes charge more and tell you it is genuine, when in fact it is not. And the "Seagull" movemnet which is the Chinese copy of the 2892 tend to suck and break.

It is all a confuysing mess and the dealers are not equal across the board. Some movements they use proper terms and others they use deceptive terms and it becomes harder and harder to know which is which.

I would love to hear from some of our dealers (other than Neil) on this. The silence is sending a message you may not intend for it to send. This really needs to get cleared up.. I do not think it is going away.

[Devedander]

Just to follow up on TVTs statement, to be deemed "Swiss Made" the movement must have 50% of it's value manufactured in switzerland. Thus on a $50 movement, replacing one screw with a $25 Swiss manufactured screw is enough to make it "Swiss Made".

Not saying that's how it necessarily is, but it's possible.

[Pugwash]

I would love to hear from some of our dealers (other than Neil) on this.

I posted Silix's reply here. Jay would have done it himself but he can't connect to this board.

[Spatten1]

"@...what the [censored] does it matter what's inside....."

1) I've bought two "Swiss ETA" non-chrono watches from Josh, both very quiet. I bought one "Asian movement" auto, sounds like [censored] when the rotor even thinks about moving.

2) I'd like to think if a minor part in a real ETA goes bad I can get a replacment and the watch is not disposable.

I don't care at all what country it is manufactured in, but standardized parts and quality sound/feel are worth extra money. If all of my reps sounded like my "Asian movement" I'd just stick with Seikos.

[eddhead]

I posted Silix's reply here. Jay would have done it himself but he can't connect to this board.

yes you did. my mistake... I would still like to hear from a couple of others...

[Finepics]

Well look at it this way - VolksWagen have factories all over the place including Shanghai - all their cars irrespective of where they are made are a VW so in my opinion an ETA (which is a trademark) should mean exactly that - an ETA (wherever it is made/assembled) so I think our dealers should stop using the word ETA unless it is!!! Ironic really that we are buying fake watches but concerned if our movts are genuine but nonetheless I do fell somewhat cheated.

[Finepics]

Another thing - the B&R 46mm was described as having Superlume on the dial and hands - definitely not!!!

[Pugwash]

Another thing - the B&R 46mm was described as having Superlume on the dial and hands - definitely not!!!

I didn't even mention that one at the beginning. Are you going to give the dealer the thumbs down?

[tvt]

>>>Just to follow up on TVTs statement, to be deemed "Swiss Made" the movement must have 50% of it's value manufactured in switzerland. Thus on a $50 movement, replacing one screw with a $25 Swiss manufactured screw is enough to make it "Swiss Made".

Not saying that's how it necessarily is, but it's possible. <<<

I am not saying this is incorrect, but where did you get this info and have you cross checked it?

I ask because generally speaking it is not the value but the actual number of parts that determine the origin of a product. This gets more and more confusing as the world gets more and more global in it's economy. For example BMW X5s are made in the US, however the engines are assembled and made in Germany, then shipped to the U.S. to be installed. Though the engine is very expensive it does not make up enough of the total parts to make the car "German". The engine is German, the car is made in the U.S.

But again, Swiss or not does not matter to me at all, hat does matter is genuine ETA or not. If a watch does not have a GENUINE ETA movement than dealers should not advertise it as such, it is really just that simple.

[ShrinkWrap]

So it is quite likely that the low end, cheap ETA movements such as the 2836 are in fact genuine ETA, just not SWISS ETA... but made to the exact same quality.

Thanks, Ted, that makes sense. Glad I like DateJusts (and stainless ones, at that).

[Watchmeister]

And the funniest about "Swiss made" movements are that they are most likely not made by Swiss people but rather by guest workers. Would you care to guess where from? No native Swiss works in anything other than banking.

[olga]

As TVT and Devedander said the swiss made label is governed by a swiss law which states that the assembly work must be carried out in switzerland as well as any testing that is done. The language states that 50% of the COMPONENTS must be manufactured in switzerland, but as Devedander said that is determined by the value of the components not the physical count or mass. One last note. In researching this subject I have been unable to confirm that ETA manufactures mechanical movements in Asia. They do make movements in China and Thailand for the Hong Kong market, but so far I have been unable to confirm anything but quartz movements for this market. This does not mean they don't, but that I have been unable to find a source to confirm that they do.

[tvt]

People have been trying to confirm what movements ETA makes where for a long time. It does not seem to be readily available anywhere and ETA does not spefocy what is made where. So It really becomes a guessing game.

One thing people need to remember is that ETA makes many, MANY different models and millions and millions of movements a year. They range from inexpensive basic movements to faitly expensive models. Just because it is ETA does not mean it is superior, however, to bring it all back on topic, if it is advertised as ETA, and priced as an ETA, then the dealers should deliver ETA and not a copy of it.

[Devedander]

I am not saying this is incorrect, but where did you get this info and have you cross checked it?

I ask because generally speaking it is not the value but the actual number of parts that determine the origin of a product. This gets more and more confusing as the world gets more and more global in it's economy. For example BMW X5s are made in the US, however the engines are assembled and made in Germany, then shipped to the U.S. to be installed. Though the engine is very expensive it does not make up enough of the total parts to make the car "German". The engine is German, the car is made in the U.S.

As per my post http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=174887

and it may have been updated since this document but I haven't been able to find evidence of it nor reason for it...

http://www.ftc.gov/opp/jointvent/madeusa/ftp/usa/047.txt

[TJGladeRaider]

"Little White Lies" is far too kind a description. Most are outright fraud.

My suggestion is to start a new topic called "Dealer Lies" and have everyone post the truth about individual models being offered by various dealers. Then the buyers can decide for themselves. After all, isn't that one of the main purposes of this forum and the others???

Start with Josh and Andrew and then take on Paul at W0-Mart........It would be great reading.

--Doc

EDITED

My original reply to this was along the lines of a somewhat scathing rebuke.

Since then, I have been made aware of various things I would not have believed could be true.

Therefore, I must apologize to Doc and redact my defense of the dealers and I do think there should be a specific section where dealer's [censored] claims are exposed.

Knowing that the dealers do read these posts, I can only say that continuing to call mineral glass "synthetic sapphire" after we discussed this at length some time ago can no longer be explained as a language error, and calling some piece of [censored] garbage movement an ETA 2892 is outright fraud.

Bill

[fitmic]

Another thing - the B&R 46mm was described as having Superlume on the dial and hands - definitely not!!!

F*CK!!!

Yesterday you showed a pic of the movement, clearly not an ETA, and now this.

I ordered this watch especially because of the movement and superlume!

[Devedander]

TJ I hate to say it but pretty much your whole post was based on some shaky logic...

Noob bash? Low post count? That's a bad way to judge someone as often as it is good... I am not saying I don't think his post was a bit out of line, but it's no excuse to lower your own standards.

I have never believed you have to actually be screwed by someone to demand they shape up. I mean, would you suggest that he, now knowing the truth about the B&R, go ahead and buy one so he has a "right" to talk about the issues?

Have you ever been murdered? Well then better not speak out against violent crime.

Ever been raped? Better not speak out against a rapist unless you were actually his victim.

Would you stand up against a man who beats his kids even if he has never beat you? see how that doesn't work?

Sythetic saphires IS saphire... it's the same stuff, same chemicals, same parts... just minus naturally occuring flaws.

Glass is NOT in anyway saphire and the slope has to be pretty slippery to get those two terms anywhere near each other. You know what, $1 is really close to $.99 and that is really close to $.98 and that is really close to $.97... so tell you what, you give me $1 and I will give you nothing and in the end they are both pretty close so we can call it a wash.

Slippery slopes are very much the core of why this post finally came along.

First off, it doesn't matter who else does what where, we are talking about certain specific people here and now. That's along the same lines as saying "well our dealers aren't screwing us like goreplica does". It's true, but it's nether here nor there.

If you tell a cop "hey, those guys over there are speeding more" do you think he will say "well gosh... then I won't give you a ticket afterall"? Exactly. Because one does not bear on the validity of the other.

As for what 1:1 means, it means that for every 1 over here, there is an equal 1 over there. Unless it is specified (ie TTK does use it specifically in one section of his description like case size) it means any and everything must have a 1:1 ratio:

1:1 case size means everything pertaining to the case and it's size are equal.

1:1 crown means everything pertaining to the crown is the same as the other.

1:1 Timex Watch means for every part of the timex watch, whatever it is being compared to has one that is measureably the same.

I don't know how anyone can see wiggle room in something so exact as 1:1... it's about the most exacting statement I can think of...

As for what ANY of the dealers are sitting back and wondering... what's going on is the damn finally burst... there are not enough fingers to plug the dyke and now a lot of people who have been biting their tongue have stopped biting. Look at the dealer review section... it's not human to be that perfect... something was amiss... you can't honestly be surprised that eventually something like this comes along... for those who have done their best to keep there noses clean, I think they aren't wondering or worrying too much at all...

It happens in all aspects of life... camels, backs and straws... we see it every day... I don't see why it's at all surprising to see it here.

Edited January 23, 2007 by Devedander

[NRG]

The language states that 50% of the COMPONENTS must be manufactured in switzerland,

The language states VALUE, see: http://www.fhs.ch/doc/osme.pdf

Finepics made a succinct comment earlier, you are buying illegal counterfeit/fake/replica products advertised as a Rolex, IWC, Patek etc. But are obsessing over the movement being genuine or not! It's not what was advertised, well duh! Nor is the watch...Now that *is* ironic!

[r11co]

So if this is the Asian ETA 2892 then what is the one that looks like the 2892 in the Omega???

That looks complete [censored]! What exactly makes that a '2892' copy?! It doesn't have the larger rotor bearing that distinguishes the 2892/ST-18. It doesn't even have the microregulator that the ST-18 (Seagull) carries. Is it the same thickness as a proper 2892?

I've had two reps with Seagull movements in them (an ST-18 2892 copy, and an ST-25 which is 2892 derived with PR function). Both looked infinitely better finished than this and proved ultra reliable and accurate.

Even the corroded 21J Miyota copies I got in my Asian POs (from Trusty) looked better than that!!

When the ST-25 based power reserve PAM reps first appeared no-one ever misrepresented them as 'ETA' even though the movement design is closer to ETA than this POS. Looks like someone just decided to start taking the [censored] one day....

[Pugwash]

Finepics made a succinct comment earlier, you are buying illegal counterfeit/fake/replica products advertised as a Rolex, IWC, Patek etc. But are obsessing over the movement being genuine or not! It's not what was advertised, well duh! Nor is the watch...Now that *is* ironic!

You miss the point. They say they're replicas of Rolexes with genuine ETA movements. They lie when they think we won't notice.

[NRG]

You miss the point. They say they're replicas of Rolexes with genuine ETA movements. They lie when they think we won't notice.

I don't think I do. Josh's site may say replica on it but Andrew's dosen't and if it does it's not obvious. Click on one of the brand names what do you see? " OMG0001A - Omega Planet Ocean Black 45mm with SS Bracelet" or " OMG0001A - Omega Replica Planet Ocean Black 45mm with SS Bracelet ". This whole hobby/industry is a lie and illegal it's hypocritical to be moralistic over the description.

[Pugwash]

This whole hobby/industry is a lie and illegal it's hypocritical to be moralistic over the description.

Thanks for playing. I'm glad you're happy to be lied to.

Please don't call me a hypocrite. I don't appreciate it.