Andrew & Josh's Response To The Little White Lies Thread...

[eddhead]

I am a little confused why a consumer should have to ask if "ETA" means "ETA"? Could it mean quartz? Why not just describe it as a copy to begin with.

I also don't understand why a purchaser should ask if "sapphire" means "sapphire" and not glass or plexiglass?

Why is "superlume" being treated as an adjective and not a verb?

This is somewhat of a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line between when someone should ask questions and when you can trust the description. When does it become a scam?

Why not just call a spade a spade? Why call a diamond a club? I believe the words we use to describe our watches have meanings. Those meanings are being lost.

Keep in mind those of us posting don't have to worry, we are informed purchasers. It is the uninformed masses that will be mislead.

You need to ask why the description does not say "ETA copy" when that is in fact what it is. This is one rhetorical question I will answer - you call an ETA copy an "Asian ETA" because you believe you will sell more of them that way. This means a purchaser is being intentionally mislead so the seller can have a higher profit.

I really fail to see how one can state "just as questions' when it would be easy to create descriptions that require no questions. Do I have to question the responses to the questions? When does it end, and why let it begin?

Why should I have to ask if you mean what you say? You should just say what you mean!

I have done some good transactions with Josh, so this is just a little surprising to me.

I do not have the buying experience that many of you have on this forum, I own a grand total of 5 reps all obtained within the past 9 mos and 4 of those have been purchased within the past 5 months or so, but I do intend to continue collecting at this pace so this is an important issue to me. And I have limited dealings with these dealers, but clearly, they are major providers to this market, and potentially market makers, so again, from that perspective this is an important issue to me.

To me, this post as well as Pug's earlier wherein the question of weather the B&R movement in question is a clone, was raisded nails it. While there have been a lot of thoughtful responses on both sides of the issue on this I have l yet to read a proper justification for calling something what it is not. This is not an ETA movement... ETA IS a noun... call it a copy, call it 28.k beat movement... call it Fred... I don't care, but please do not call it an ETA movement if it is not one. Samething with Sapphire. These are real terms and have real meanings in the world.. there should be not room for interpetation as to what we are referring to. Using words like Asia ETA is a step in the right direction but it does not go far enough.. it is like Code for the insiders... just say what it is.

Like most others posting here, I am not interested in slamming individuals or making personal attacks. I have said all along, the issue here is in naming convention. We need to get is straight and move on so we can proceed with business as usual.

[r11co]

I’ll say it again, ours is a hobby based on purchasing counterfeit goods. We know what we are doing and we should be smart enough to understand the risks and the items we receive may not be exactly what we where told they would be. To bang on about ETA movements and Swiss etc. when the watch we buy is a false hood in its own right is beyond my understanding.

This would be all well and good if it weren't for the fact that there are dealers who do not misrepresent their goods from the outset, do not wait for someone to notice before 'fessing up, and do not treat us like a bunch of happy mugs and so called 'experts'.

Andrew and Josh, have for a long time now, provided a Wall Mart shopping experience with really great back up considering the legality of the product that is really amazing IMHO. Short of making them fall on their proverbial swords as a way of an apology I can’t see what else there is to be gained in beating them to depth....

Neither do I actually. For me personally, Trusty's reputation withered with the '7750, oops sorry, Swiss quartz' Breitling which actually had a Citizen movement in it, then died with the rusty Planet Oceans with straps that didn't fit and never fitted. I'm just watching it rot in public now.

I never bought from Josh, but it looks to me he fell into bad company.

[crystalcranium]

Hi Andrew, Josh -- I am gratified to see that you have responded to the concerns of the members.

As you both well know, I have bought a lot of watches from both of you, and I have never hesitated to say that I like both of you personally, and I like the way you do business. To see either of you accused of dishonesty bothers me; I know from experience that you try very hard to keep your customers satisfied.

I also know, from personal experience, that Joshua has, on occasion, "pushed" certain watches to me, personally recommending them as being exceptionally nice. Several times I have bought watches based solely upon his recommendation, and each time I have found that they were all that he represented them to be. There have also been occasions where he suggested that I reconsider buying certain watches as he did not feel I would be satisifed with their quality.

I have never had any transaction with either of you that I was dissatisfied with in any way - not even a little bit.

Having said that, I would also say that there are "yes or no" words that have specific meaning - like "pregnant" for example. One cannot be "sort of pregnant," or "a little bit pregnant," either they are pregnant or they are not.

Words like sapphire, Swiss and ETA may not quite fall into that sort of absolute category, but most people think they do, especially those who actually buy watches, rather than just talk about them. I say that because I believe that the highest posting members on these boards rarely buy watches, and I believe that most of your sales are to those who talk the least. To me, that is all the more reason for you to be selective in how you describe your products.

I hope all is well with you and yours.

Bill

Well said.

All along, I have stated that, while the dealers here have earned good reputations for honesty and customer service, any sales endeavour is going to be subject to exaggeration. But there are no truth in advertising laws here, just word of mouth and self policing. I think Josh and Andrew know they crossed a line, a line that has been getting pushed, a little swiss eta lie here, a little sapphire lie there, closer and closer to something we would not tolerate. Pugwash had some major brass balls to push back. It's not a topic I would have started. I would have been afraid of offending the establishment. I've enthusiastically ridden in his slipstream during this discussion and I think we owe him a major thank you for shining the spotlight.

I guess the reputational cost/reward of admitting "yeah, we went too far in "Switzerlandizing" a wholly Asian replica" doesn't make sense to them. I'm actually much more interested in how this is going to affect future advertising. When the next "2892 Whatever" comes out, you can be sure it will be brutally scrutinized.

[ubiquitous]

These are real terms and have real meanings in the world.. there should be not room for interpetation as to what we are referring to. Using words like Asia ETA is a step in the right direction but it does not go far enough.. it is like Code for the insiders... just say what it is.

Agreed. Why call it an ETA if it's not? They don't call the Asian 21j a Miyota... Or even a Miyota clone. Rather, they simply call it a 21j Asian movement, as it should be.

[r11co]

I guess the reputational cost/reward of admitting "yeah, we went too far in "Switzerlandizing" a wholly Asian replica" doesn't make sense to them. I'm actually much more interested in how this is going to affect future advertising. When the next "2892 Whatever" comes out, you can be sure it will be brutally scrutinized.

No bad thing in the current climate, but why did it have to happen? We've come a long way even in just the time I've been here (and over in the old place), but this was definitely a case of dealers shitting on their own doorstep, and we are all going to be more careful about where we step in future.

A step backward IMO.

[archibald]

OK, so now Jos and Andrew have responded. Their response is: We've changed, sort of, just because we were asked to. But we really didn't do anything wrong. The translation of which, of course, will not be lost on anyone familiar with this type of response: "[censored] you."

Keep in mind that Andrew and Jos's earliest response to the "ETA" issue was that calling Seagull movements ETA movements was standard operating procedure in China which I personally found amusing since running over people with tanks was also standard operating procedure in China, too. Apparently the SOP excuse didn't fly, so now Andrew and Jos say it's reasonable to call a Seagull movement an ETA movement because it is a copy...er...clone...of an ETA movement. They won't do it anymore, because those wacky admins asked them not to...but, hey, it was reasonable.

Andrew and Jos also pretend they don't know what the term super lume means. "What does 'super' mean," Andrew asks. As you know Andrew, the meaning of super is determined by the word that comes after it. And, as you also know, when the word "super" is followed by the word "lume" it indicates that the watch has been lumed with Superluminova. Now it's the perfectly reasonable Superb Lume.

Of course the biggies are not even addressed: Using the terms "1:1" and "Perfect" to describe watches that are not even "best of class" reps. Maybe reasonable explanations for those are a little harder to come by?

As I suggested on TRC, there is a simple solution to this whole issue. If we assume that rep forums, as the all their respective Admins state, is designed to help prevent rep collectors from getting mislead, then there is an easy way to fulfill that inteded purpose 100%: There should be a prominenetly placed, stickied thread or, better, a "welcome" PM sent to all new members, that clarifies any misleading advertising terminology in use. If anyone joins and does not read the PM or thread, getting fooled is their problem, and the purpose of the rep boards will have been fully accomplished. Nonforum members who get fooled by misleading ads are not our problem.

In fact, I think quoting liberally in a Post or Email, from Andrew's response would greatly help people decide who they should buy their watches from.

We owe the RWG powers that be a thank you for quietly asking Andrew and Jos to change their ad copy. It will be interesting for long time members, especially those of us who moved over from the original RWG, to see if the admins act further based on the content and tone of Andrew and Jos's "response."

[namor]

...

I am sorry for those people who thought they were buying one thing and got another. If you ask questions and are blatantly lied to that is unacceptable. That has never been the case with me with any dealer. And I know. All my better reps go to Rob for either relume or service. And by the way, my FM 2892 conquistador is 100% ETA.

I would be remiss however if I didn't say thanks to Neil and Jay for standing up in the prior thread. I will try and buy more from them. Of course, this does not bode well for my pocketbook.

You are absolutely right when you say you have to ask questions - and so I did !

But, and now comes the tricky point, I didn't know that I have to ask every Detail of a watch even if it is described very well ???

Where's the difference to the good ol' Photobuckets then ?

Does this mean I have to ask if a fiddy is described as "SuperLumed, Sapphire, Swiss 6497" if it has SuperLume-Dial, Sapphire and Swiss 6497 ???

This must be a joke ! Stuff like this NEVER happened to me before !

Trustys quote about his initial description was not 100% right: it wasn't just described as Superlume-Dial (where I would expect a really good Lume too !) NO, it was decribed as "SuperLume applied to Dial and Needle" !

So here is where your opinion about a "super" lume is NOT of interest anymore. If it is stated clearly that "Superlume" was applied, it should be applied.

And the Lume was not good as again stated by Andrew - it was really worse.

I bought my B&R from Joshua - his description did NOT include the Term "Superlume" (but he added later !), therefore I asked him

especially if it is the same as Andrews WITH Superlume - he said yes - I ordered !

This simple. If you need to confirm the facts written in the description - what do we need this Webshops ? Back to the Photobuckets and if you like anything, write a huge mail with detailed questions ("is the brushing at the lugs of your Submariner REALLY 45° ?").

I asked Joshua about a Detail which was not in his description - got an answer and ordered.

BTW: glad you like your FM-2892 !

That's why I said that if josh and trusty have replied to an enquiring email that the watch has ETA SWISS 2892 they must get him this movement or give a refund.

+ kruzers reply above...

Mmh, yeah - I didn't ask about the Movement, but the Superlume - and the answer I got was obviously not correct, therefore I sent the Watch back and I am waiting for a refund (including both shipping costs as it was NOT my fault!).

Plus I want to see JUST ONE mail from the 'experienced' members who asked very normally Joshua (as i would do if i was interested for the B&R) :

'Hey Josh, how come you can supply a watch with a genuine ETA 2893 for 300$ ??? '

You don't need to see such a mail because it's in a possible price-range. See kruzers post about Ziggy confirming him his FM-2892 was 100% ETA ? The watch is in this price-range you mentioned. I also have an Omega AT with ETA-2892 too. Same price-range and was confirmed by my watchmaker too.

Usual prices you see at Ofrei are not applicable to China...

You get a Pam 196 with A/R, Sapphire, S/S-Bracelet AND Swiss-ETA-7753 for about 700,- USD.

For this price you'll have a hard time finding a comparable nice watch from ANY manufacturer...

Just to mention another Experience: I wanted to order an "Ultimate" Fiddy from Silix - they immediately replied to my order stating that the current batch has problems with the movement and the crystals are not yet confirmed to be real sapphire. This is honesty.

I told them at this point that I'm currently not interested in any other watch - so they get no order from me for now.

"No Problem, you're welcome" was the reply...

[Steve G]

Just curious and really not trying to start anything but....I personally have dealt almost exclusively with one of the mentioned dealers here and personally haven't had any issues with the products I've received over 30 watches. I feel I got what i paid for and any issues along the way were resolved in a professional manner. Now I don't claim to be an expert on watches, I know a little to me it's always been about how accurate the rep is. Maybe I see through the advertising wording...Maybe I don't put much value on words such as 1:1, Sapphire, ETA...Maybe I don't care. After all these are fake watches right? Most people that are buying are taking $200-$300 that they could have purchased a citzen or seiko and decided they would rather have a knock off of something they most likey cannot afford or don't want to pay for.

Who is so honest in selling fake illegal products, giving you're money's worth and providing good service after the fact?

This board is great for information and for each buyer to learn and absorb as much as they can or want to.

[namor]

Forgot to say:

I will of course update you about the refund...

[andreww]

Although I agree with most of what has been posted here, I also realize that Josh & Andrew are different than most of the dealers on this site. They have large sites, and a huge catalogue of watches. I would guess that our community is not their only source of business, and that they compete mostly with all the other rep sites out there. When looked at in that context, they are actually probably the most honest, and highest quality rep dealers on the internet. If they are in fact competing with vendors that gladly tell you that an asian 775o is actually Swiss, then it would be unfair of us to demand that they stop using any "Asian exaggerations" on their sites because we perceive ourselves to be above the rest of the buying public.

If I am correct, then I would not be surprised at all to see Andrew & Josh leave our community, and solely work the "dumb buyer" market.

These guys are business men dealing in a dirty business mostly founded on lies, deceit and illusion. If they are to compete, abandoning these deceptions may be impractical. So think about what you are asking, before you demand it, as we may lose two of our best dealers in doing so.

If this is the case, I still believe that Andrew and Josh should at least have clarified these "exaggerations" here, if not on their sites.

[Pugwash]

Who is so honest in selling fake illegal products, giving you're money's worth and providing good service after the fact?

Honestly and legality are not the same thing.

[eddhead]

Honestly and legality are not the same thing.

... we have been through this multiple times... i agree.

[crystalcranium]

Just to mention another Experience: I wanted to order an "Ultimate" Fiddy from Silix - they immediately replied to my order stating that the current batch has problems with the movement and the crystals are not yet confirmed to be real sapphire. This is honesty.

I told them at this point that I'm currently not interested in any other watch - so they get no order from me for now.

"No Problem, you're welcome" was the reply...

Wow, there's hope!!!!

Maybe it's just me, but honesty such as this goes SO far in earning my respect and trust. I have bought my last three cars from the same salesman at the same dealership because my first buying experience with him was refreshingly above board, no games, no "I've got to walk away from this negotiation at least 3 times to get a decent offer, 5 times to get a good offer, and a dozen times to get the best offer" [censored], that he got my business for a lifetime. I know I can walk in there, state what I'm looking for and have it presented to me honestly. Does he make a profit...of course...might I save myself another $300 by playing hardball for another month, ...maybe but I'll tell you one thing. The fact that I can walk in there and KNOW that step one is not going to be bending over and being offered the worst rip off deal under pressure that "these babys are going fast...take it or leave it" takes 98% of the worry off my mind. If you'll be honest with us, we will come!!!

[r11co]

Wow, there's hope!!!!

Indeed, although why do you sound so surprised. As I say - some dealers do not treat us like fair game for a bit of 'non-disclosure' to see what they can get away with. It all comes down to how they want to do business, and how they want to be perceived by the customer.

[eddhead]

Just to mention another Experience: I wanted to order an "Ultimate" Fiddy from Silix - they immediately replied to my order stating that the current batch has problems with the movement and the crystals are not yet confirmed to be real sapphire. This is honesty.

I told them at this point that I'm currently not interested in any other watch - so they get no order from me for now.

"No Problem, you're welcome" was the reply...

Without going into great detail,I had a similar expereince with Silix on a 45MM PO. He was completely upfront and honest even thought it meant not getting the sale, at least not this sale.... maybe he realizes there will be other opportunities.. or maybe he is just that kind of person.. either way, i will be working with him again

[jonthebhoy]

We owe the RWG powers that be a thank you for quietly asking Andrew and Jos to change their ad copy. It will be interesting for long time members, especially those of us who moved over from the original RWG, to see if the admins act further based on the content and tone of Andrew and Jos's "response."

Be assured that there is no more important a topic in Admin at the moment, however, the debate, for the time being belongs to you the membership. We have continuously, since the topic was borne, pushed Andrew and Joshua for a response and finally we have a response. There may be more to offer and these gentlemen have, as always, the forum at their disposal.

We, in Admin, have no wish to rush into any decision until we are satisfied that the membership have had enough time to absorb and opine on the issues at hand.

Thus far there have been some very good points raised by both camps and it would be unfair to pre-empt the discussion with a knee jerk action, one way or the other.

On a personal note the two dealers in question have been around for a long time with a solid and trusting customer base, much of which was developed from the old RWG and here and the other boards and as such it is only fair that we should leave the door open to them to bring forward any other information that may help to clear up or clarify this problem.

JTB

[andreww]

Not really hard to be honest about a product that you don't have!

Without going into great detail,I had a similar expereince with Silix on a 45MM PO. He was completely upfront and honest even thought it meant not getting the sale, at least not this sale.... maybe he realizes there will be other opportunities.. or maybe he is just that kind of person.. either way, i will be working with him again

[Pugwash]

Be assured that there is no more important a topic in Admin at the moment, however, the debate, for the time being belongs to you the membership.

It is for this very reason that I urge people who haven't spoken out to do so now. I know from my PMs that there are a lot of people that agree with me but would rather not say so publicly for fear of damaging their relationship with their dealer, but this is it; this is the last chance. Speak now or forever hold your peace, because if the Admin team believe that we're all happy being mislead by dealers, they will take that as the policy of the board.

I hope I'm not being over-dramatic, but let's take the other point of view. If you're happy for the dealers to use misleadign terms because you understand what they really mean then speak. Tell us worry-mongers how much we're over-reacting and convince us we're just worrying over nothing. We will shut up if the forum tells us that they don't have a problem with the dealers using potentially misleading terms.

[eddhead]

Not really hard to be honest about a product that you don't have!

I do not want to go into detail but suffice to say he had a very similar model that i mistakenly thought was the 6th gen, and he was very clear about what the differences between what the two were, and why he thought his version was not suitable for me. Based on what I am reading, I am not at all clear that is a common practice.

[olivia]

Nouns and adjectives...good one.

I have not dealt with Josh but I have Andrew and believe he is very reliable and certainly has good communication skills. Glad to see his response here. Seems to me that the solution to all of this is just to simply say clearly what the components are, if you are going to list them at all. If the movement is Seagull ST-XX, just say that and show a picture and give specs. If it looks like an ETA2892, but does not have the same movement design, it would not bother me to say 2892 “Look a Like”, but “clone” may be a little misleading, although not totally inaccurate by definition of the word, which includes "imitation”. But most people probably think of clone as an exact duplicate.

Now, the 1:1 description is something I have been dealing with lately on the vintage explorers 6610 and 1016. If Andrew is being given the 1:1 information by suppliers, it would be helpful if we could get a clear definition of what this means. The 1:1 is more important to me than the movement because it affects case parts replacement, which are more difficult to ferret out than movements.

Edited February 1, 2007 by olivia

[eddhead]

It is for this very reason that I urge people who haven't spoken out to do so now. I know from my PMs that there are a lot of people that agree with me but would rather not say so publicly for fear of damaging their relationship with their dealer, but this is it; this is the last chance. Speak now or forever hold your peace, because if the Admin team believe that we're all happy being mislead by dealers, they will take that as the policy of the board.

I hope I'm not being over-dramatic, but let's take the other point of view. If you're happy for the dealers to use misleadign terms because you understand what they really mean then speak. Tell us worry-mongers how much we're over-reacting and convince us we're just worrying over nothing. We will shut up if the forum tells us that they don't have a problem with the dealers using potentially misleading terms.

I agree. even if your points have already been raised, it is important to step up and let yourself be heard, and now is the time, if for no other reason than to dimension the debate and get a sense as to how important the issue is to the membership.

[Pugwash]

if for no other reason than to dimension the debate and get a sense as to how important the issue is to the membership.

I was considering a poll as it allows anonymity, but it seemed to trivialise the whole thing.

[HauteHippie]

i for one always read between the lines and never felt misled by anything from andrew or joshua. they are very honest people and a great asset to our community. they always deliver fast and make right any issues you have without question. if you are confused by anything just ask them a question. they will treat you as a friend and are 100% trustworthy.

This sums it up for me as well.

[watcher]

Can I just mention one thing that bothers me about nearly all the dealers, the pictures do not always marry up to the description.

This is a perfect example posted by Andrew yesterday.

Cartier Santos 100 chrono with swiss 7753 movemet but none of the pictures actually show one. The movement pics are crappy asia7750 and the watch dial has got a sunken date and not representitive of the swiss at all. Why on earth would I spend that much not knowing what I would really be getting!!

http://www.ttwristwatch.com/index.php?main...roducts_id=1233

Here is the link and see for yourselves.

That said I have always had good service from all the dealers and always suspected the B&R did not have a swiss movement as they did not brag about it with movement pics as they usually do!

[b16a2]

The replica forum board is a minorty for both of these dealers sales. The reason that we are unfolding these 'white lies' is due to our interest in watches. To the everday person who buys one replica watch to impress, it would make no difference. This is who the marketing is aimed at, they are stretching the application of descriptions.

I personally think that when new watches are advertised on this board, in their dealer section, they should tell us exactly what we are getting.

Edited February 1, 2007 by b16a2