The Legality Of Replicas

[cenobyt]

Someone mentioned Greece. I do not know the specific laws in regards to replicas, however, take a stroll through, a not to be mentioned here, part Athens after about 6PM and you can buy absolutely anything that can be replicated. It's so out in the open they can't possibly care. No one does anything about it. I saw every brand of high end watch, bag, software, music, and movies. Not only is it out in the open but they're pushing it. I also saw police officers stroll on by. The only thing the guys selling the stuff do is walk away and act like nothing is going on. But it's so obvious.

[Pugwash]

Someone mentioned Greece. I do not know the specific laws in regards to replicas, however, take a stroll through, a not to be mentioned here, part Athens after about 6PM and you can buy absolutely anything that can be replicated.

Needless to say, that doesn't make it legal.

[Marc283]

I heard a customs officer telling that to a fellow traveller when I was returning from holliday in Malaysia.

Where did you get this information from? I couldn't find anything official on internet to confirm this.

I did find lots of official information about bringing a maximum of 3 replicas per category (jewelry, clothing, CD's and DVD's etc.) into this country coming back from holidays.

Also curious to know what the law says about possesion of reps....

[cenobyt]

Needless to say, that doesn't make it legal.

You're right it's not. But honestly, in some countries they just can't be bothered. Too much paperwork means they'll look away rather then create more work.

That being said, I'd really like to find out what the actual law states. Especially here in the states. There is always that gray it's not illegal if you're then one buying it, just illegal if you sell it. I don't totally believe that, if they want to bust you, they'll bust you. Just because it's one watch doesn't mean I'm not selling it and they can use that if they wish.

[scoobs1971]

Anyone that has ever lost a rep to customs will be able to answer that. Firstly, it's smuggling, even strictly on import duty before we even get to counterfeiting. Are you specifically asking about Holland?

I'm specifically asking about Holland.

So far I've been reluctant to buy from collectors outside the EU, because I'm assuming it can be lost to cust*ms. But I was also assuming that it is not allowed to bring reps in your bagage . To my surprise this appears in Holland to be officially allowed to 3 pieces per person!

Makes me think there might be some tolerance for internet import as well.... Can't imagine, but you never know

That's why I'd like to see something official stating it's either totally illegal or tolerated to a certain amount.

Edit: See post 107

[JMCC]

Well, I know this threads been dead for months, but perhaps someone will find this on a search...

Seems that US customs law (at least Cali law) is what has been described, unless of course I stumbled into an ignorant or lazy customs official. Had 4 boxed $75 roly watches arrive today (might I add that they appear to be of beginmariner caliber) that were shipped by a vendor I took a chance on and marked "gift...$30 value". Homeland Sec/ Costums went all through it, retaped w/special tape and had my postal carrier hand me an import tax form for 120 bucks. They said value was $2k. This was Oakland customs up north through SF, but I'm in Socal.

I definitely won't be selling these or defrauding anyone, so I should be good. I've actually got a small bachelor party for a friend coming up, and will give these to my best friends...

[SportsterRider]

Did some quick digging for US/State laws concerning 'counterfeit' goods. Found a couple intersting articles.

These deal with a relatively new Federal legislation aimed specifially at counterfeiting:

http://tinyurl.com/3x5t4l

http://tinyurl.com/2sy9d9

I found this particular quote quite interesting:

"In addition, H.R. 32 clarifies that the statutory prohibition on trafficking in such illegal goods extends to barter transactions in which no monetary consideration is exchanged, and to transactions in which the payment for the goods is either deferred or is made in the form of some future considerations."

Here is an excerpt from the Pennsylvanie Crimal Code concerning counterfeit goods:

[Toadtorrent]

Here is a quote from the Canadian RCMP (Canada's national police force) Web Site: "Possession of counterfeit items is not a criminal offence in Canada as long as there is no intent to distribute them" and another from the RCMP web site on downloading music. "Downloading music for personal use is currently not a criminal offence in Canada."

Here is the link to the RCMP web sites where the quotation have been taken: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/fio/intellectual_e.htm

In Canada there is distincition between buying a rep for personal use and buying reps for resale in a commercial venture. The former is legal and the latter illegal.

Here's my second post...super-noob to the rescue. HAH.

I'm no lawyer, but looking at the official Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) website outlines specifically what is supposed to be followed. For reference:

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/E/pub/cm/d19-4-3/d19-4-3-e.html

Under the heading: "When does an [intellectual Property] Infringement Occur?" we get the following:

"a) applying a trade-mark without the authorization of the right holder to a watch that is not manufactured by the company that holds the trade-mark;"

This obviously covers manufacturing, and outright, says it is illegal. This does not however, cover importation, possession, etc.

The agreement CBSA has (from what I can read and understand) with IP owners, says the owner of the IP rights can apply for the Minister to take "reasonable measures to detect and detain alleged infringing goods", but that this application requires certain info in the "order" to be specific enough for CCRA (Canada Customs and Revenue Agency) officials to be able to detect the goods prior to detainment...or

"18. To assist in detecting shipments of any goods under the order, the CCRA may require some or all of the following information to be provided by the applicant:

(a) Complete description of the goods;

( Classification of goods under the Harmonized System;

© Quantity and value of goods;

(d) Identity of importer, e.g., name, address (location), Business Number;

(e) Identity of exporter and vendor;

(f) Country of export;

(g) Country of origin;

(h) Place of importation or release;

(i) Approximate date of arrival;

(j) Mode of transportation (e.g., sea, rail, land); and

(k) Notification procedure for the applicant in the event of the detection of the goods (e.g., letter, fax)."

After detaining of goods, they have to notify the IPR holder and the importer.

It seems CCRA (aka Customs) won't (can't??) detain goods without specific court orders. These orders have to be specific enough to reference specific shipments in order to facilitate detection. This means small "personal" shipments won't hit the radar, but the big ones could.

"Canada Customs and Revenue Agency only acts upon the direction of the court" i.e. CCRA is not in the business to enforce the spirit or letter of copyright law without specific orders from the court.

Maybe somebody else more qualified in these matters can provide more direction.

[Toadtorrent]

One more reference:

Intellectual Property Congress notes

"In its February

2005, USTR submission, the IACC draws a very negative

comparison between the approach of Canadian and US

border authorities, contrasting a handful of customs

seizures in Canada to more than 37,000 in the US

over a comparable period. Historically, the Canada

Border Services Agency has only been prompted to

act in limited situations, handcuffed by legislation that

never deals squarely with counterfeit issues. Large

scale seizures are extremely rare, due in part to

cumbersome procedures in the relevant statutes.

Under s 44-45 Copyright Act and s 53.1 Trademark

Act, goods can be detained at the border, but only

with a court order that precisely identifies the counterfeit

shipment well before it arrives. This process has only

been used six times in the past 10 years, usually after

Anton Piller Orders have identified incoming shipments

on the water."

[coffeegeek]

Australia:

This is good news for any in Australia who are unsure about the relative legalities of bringing reps (for personal use, not trade, sale, lease, hire, etc.) into the country. It's important to know where you stand, and it gives you peace of mind that unless you're importing a Georgio Armani, or, no kidding, a Darth Vader watch, you don't need to worry about fines/confiscation etc.

It also shows that unless we keep a low profile we will end up bringing a "Notices of Objection to Importation" upon the brands we all love.

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/notices/ACN0607.pdf

Here's the meat:

"Goods referred to in this [Australian Customs Notice], that are manufactured outside and imported into Australia, and

are subject to the control of Customs under the meaning of the Customs Act 1901 are liable to

be seized by Customs if:

− They have applied to them, or in relation to them, a sign that is substantially identical

with, or deceptively similar to, a trade mark listed in the attached Schedule; and

− are goods in respect of which the notified trade mark is registered;

unless it can be established that:

− the goods are being imported other than for the purposes of trade (sale, lease, hire, etc);

or

− the goods do not infringe the relevant trade mark."

Please, if I'm off track here, or have missed something entirely, let me know. Always base your decisions on your own, solid research.

Coffeegeek

[Toadtorrent]

CANADA:

I see a lot of people are reading this...but not a lot are providing actual documentation...so, I'll add a little more.

The Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network (CACN) is a coalition of individuals, companies, firms and associations that have united in the fight against product counterfeiting and copyright piracy in Canada and internationally. They are essentially a lobby and policy group that has partnered with the RCMP and the Federal Government in addressing counterfeiting issues.

The CACN FAQ setion which can be found HERE, reads:

Question 5. If I contact the police or the company because I think I

[giorgio]

Canada's been on the global radar for years now. Here's a quote from 2005:

In fact, the coalition says China -- notorious for being the single largest manufacturer of counterfeit items -- offers better enforcement against counterfeit products than Canada.

Full article here

Gotta love it!

[abat]

UK law for anyone who wants to wade through it:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/20020025.htm

[jfreeman420]

The FBI, Interpol and the World Customs Organization indicate that U.S. businesses lose between $200 billion and $250 billion in revenue each year due to counterfeiting. In addition, the United States economy loses millions of dollars in tax revenue and has lost over 750,000 jobs due to the manufacture, sale and distribution of counterfeit goods, according to U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

Where do they get these numbers? Who is buying counterfeit watches or handbags that would have really bought the genuine article if no counterfeits were available? I know I wouldn't own 20 Rolexes if there were no fakes available.

[Kollektor]

JF - agreed. Statistical BS. All based on axioms, presumptions and... air.

[solicitor]

For most American members of this forum, the most relevant portion of H.R. 32 [109th]: "Protecting American Goods and Services Act of 2005", which was signed into law by President Bush in March of 2006 (Public Law No: 109-181), is the "trafficking" section making it a criminal violation of federal law to IMPORT any counterfeit goods with the intent to transport, transfer, or otherwise dispose of, to another, for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain.

Edited November 2, 2007 by solicitor

[BobM]

Nope, Bill the detective: TJGladeRaider.

I have tracked Bill GladeRaider's posts back to 2006 but found nothing on this topic ... no layout of U.S. laws. I have something I want to contribute to this topic but I want to append my contribution to the right thread. Can you provide a link to the relevant postings by GladeRaider on U.S. law about replica goods and illegal acts thereunder?

Thanks.

[ferrariz]

This is for Australians....

I found the Customs website which bascially says that company's have to lodge a Notice of Objection if they want customs to stop and seize goods that infringe on their copyright/trademark. If the objection Notice is not there, Customs wont do a thing... This link has a list of all current companies and their trademarks which have current objections lodged....

Rolex & Tag are there but...Omega isnt there.. even IWC isnt there..... heh...

"This is a list of the companies that presently have Notices of Objection in place with Customs under section 132 of the Trade Marks Act 1995.

Where goods are imported into Australia and have applied to them a similar or identical trade mark that has been applied without the consent of the trade mark owner in Australia , they may be seized by Customs."

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=4683

[offshore]

Where goods are imported into Australia and have applied to them a similar or identical trade mark that has been applied without the consent of the trade mark owner in Australia , they may be seized by Customs."

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=4683

ferrariz,

Note my highlight.... could also read "may not"

I have bought in excess of 1000 watches in to Oz, (most gen), and have NEVER had a package opened, or challenged.

FYI.

Offshore

[ferrariz]

ferrariz,

Note my highlight.... could also read "may not"

I have bought in excess of 1000 watches in to Oz, (most gen), and have NEVER had a package opened, or challenged.

FYI.

Offshore

Sounds good.. heres hoping trends dont change...

[cdv]

Obviously I'm coming late to the party, but just checked Florida (US) law and possession is not illegal, unless you intend to sell. Sale over $1000 is felony, under $1000 is misdemeanor.

On a side not, if anyone reads this, as best I can tell the illegal act is the fact that the rep has a mark that is not authorized by the mark holder. So, if I build my own rep, but leave off any marks, then I should be legal, right?

Most of the watches I buy are based upon looks and not whether it is a name brand, it just happens that the cooler watches are typically the expensive brands.

[ferrariz]

On a side not, if anyone reads this, as best I can tell the illegal act is the fact that the rep has a mark that is not authorized by the mark holder. So, if I build my own rep, but leave off any marks, then I should be legal, right?

Most of the watches I buy are based upon looks and not whether it is a name brand, it just happens that the cooler watches are typically the expensive brands.

Umm... maybe not!

"Trademark violations: Counterfeit watches are divided into two groups. The first group comprises low-priced timekeeping imitations. A cheap counterfeit watch features the name of a prestigious brand, but lacks its design and functions.

Trade-dress or Design Violations: The second group involves counterfeit watches designed to resemble the original (a trade dress violation). Some high-priced counterfeit watches are produced from better materials and have golden parts and leather straps. "

[HammerTime]

Looks like this thread has been resurrected.

In the USA you can WEAR and POSSESS your replica watches with impunity but sell them (in volume) at your peril.

In the 3 states where I own property, there are laws on the books (e.g., spitting on the sidewalk, anti-miscegenation) that have not and will not ever be enforced, thus relegating them as meaningless.

A more relevant thread would be about ENFORCEMENT of counterfeit goods laws in various countries, specifically regarding watches. The fact that something is illegal may or may not be cause for alarm or concern.

Edited March 26, 2008 by HammerTime

[Shundi]

While not having the PAM name on a watch might seem ok, certain other feature (such as the crownguard on PAMs and I'm assume the Triplock mechanism in Rolex crowns) may be subject to trademarks and therefore, even if your watch doesn't say "OP," if it has the same crownguard, its still in violation of an existing trademark.

[Victoria]

Obviously I'm coming late to the party, but just checked Florida (US) law and possession is not illegal, unless you intend to sell. Sale over $1000 is felony, under $1000 is misdemeanor.

Recently, I heard of a Floridian on Craigslist being threatened by Hublot for selling an obvious copy on the site (it was mentioned in passing in the Miami New Times, and I should've posted about it). I believe the person just claimed they didn't know it was a fake, having bought it on Fleabay.

I presume the authorities didn't prosecute because it wasn't worthy of their time, and it's a civil matter now, perhaps.

Whilst some marques are more aggressive than others, this reminds me of that Belgian chap who just got his watch seized by Customs this week. He might be in hot water, because the authorities of that country are more vigourous in their law enforcement of reps.

I also seem to remember the sad case of a member who wasn't given a simple fax letter by a collector, landing him in much monetary trouble in Germany, IIRC. If the item you receive isn't a fake, then it must be real -- you will pay duties on it.

This thread is now 101 posts long, and it may well be one of the most important threads ever posted on RWG.