The Time has Come to Say Something....

[r11co]

Oh I quite agree with what you're saying about how it will eventually allow the Cartel to charge what they want, and I find that disturbing as well, however, what I find more disturbing, and a more pressing issue, is that people have been lied to about product.

At the risk of splitting what is at the moment a united front, I still say that the lies are related to price. Price might not be the reason we object to being lied to, but if you read Andrew's justification for lying about the not-even-close-to-ETA2892 movement in the B&R is that if we'd actually wanted what they were claiming the watch had then they would had to increase the price. In other words if we wanted to live our fantasy, get a B&R and believe that the watch was good we could pay 'X', whereas if we wanted them to go to the 'great risk and trouble' to actually put in it what they claimed was already there the price would have been 'X+a lot more'.

That is why I went ballistic with him yesterday. He was suggesting he was doing us a favour by lying to us therefor saving us money. Talk about inverted thinking - that verges on delusional.

Price is a subjective thing and ultimately driven by market forces so we can't use price alone as a reason to be aggrieved. It is still though at the heart of the issue if the lies are told in order to give truth to the lie about the price too.

To summarise - price might not be our justification for being aggrieved, but it is most definitely the reason they have been motivated to lie, and an arrest of the cash flowing to them will be the only thing that will stop the lies.

[TeeJay]

At the risk of splitting what is at the moment a united front, I still say that the lies are related to price. Price might not be the reason we object to being lied to, but if you read Andrew's justification for lying about the not-even-close-to-ETA2892 movement in the B&R is that if we'd actually wanted what they were claiming the watch had then they would had to increase the price.

In other words if we wanted to live our fantasy, get a B&R and believe that the watch was good we could pay 'X', whereas if we wanted them to go to the 'great risk and trouble' to actually put in it what they claimed was already there the price would have been 'X+a lot more'.

Price is a subjective thing and ultimately driven by market forces so we can't use price alone as a reason to be aggrieved. It is still though at the heart of the issue if the lies are told in order to give truth to the lie about the price too.

To summarise - price might not be our justification for being aggrieved, but it is most definitely the reason they have been motivated to lie, and an arrest of the cash flowing to them will be the only thing that will stop the lies.

I completely agree with you there, I was just saying, as Olivia seemed to not understand what people's issues were, that Edge's (and everyone else's) issues was not primarily about price increases, but the dishonest and manipulative behaviour on the part of the Cartel (which would eventually lead to price rises) and that the best way to prevent those rises occuring, was to act against their dishonest and manipulative behaviour.

That is why I went ballistic with him yesterday. He was suggesting he was doing us a favour by lying to us therefor saving us money. Talk about inverted thinking - that verges on delusional.

This is the thing though. He/they were doing us a favor by getting the B&R made, where they went wrong was by lying about the movement that was put inside it. This isn't an expression I'd heard before visiting forums, but this is a classic case of 'buddy [censored]ing'... Doing someone a favor, but also ripping them off at the same time.

[andreww]

So the bottom line in this for me is that all the dealers need to keep sight about the value added services. They could probably make more money if they offer a properly QC, mod'ed and serviced watch. Think along the lines of Davidson except perhaps a little more communicative (for the life of me I can't get Davidson to say what he has done to the watches he sells but they are obviously of a higher quality than the norm). The Zigmeister and others might not be as busy, but I am sure there is enough work out there for everyone.

/Tim

I have seen conclusive evidence that "serviced" watches from one of the cartel members are not serviced at all. Bone dry!

Another fraudulent act perpetrated on unknowing buyers.

[b16a2]

I have seen conclusive evidence that "serviced" watches from one of the cartel members are not serviced at all. Bone dry!

Another fraudulent act perpetrated on unknowing buyers.

That is something that has always worried me. Ask me about the look of a watch I'm fine. Ask me about the internals of one, and the in and outs, Im not so good! I have always bought a watch without being serviced, and if I want it serviced I will get it serviced, then i know the work has been done.

If this is the case, again price comes into it indirectly. We're paying too much for a product that is of lesser value = Edge's point, we're being lied to!!!

I used to have such high regards for the few dealers mentioned here, but over the past few days I am gradually feeling cheated by them. I hope that this thread, along with the previous white lies and B&R thread and the current poll leads to some action that will make a change in their ways!

[Tim]

At the risk of splitting what is at the moment a united front, I still say that the lies are related to price. Price might not be the reason we object to being lied to, but if you read Andrew's justification for lying about the not-even-close-to-ETA2892 movement in the B&R is that if we'd actually wanted what they were claiming the watch had then they would had to increase the price. In other words if we wanted to live our fantasy, get a B&R and believe that the watch was good we could pay 'X', whereas if we wanted them to go to the 'great risk and trouble' to actually put in it what they claimed was already there the price would have been 'X+a lot more'.

And again, the thing they lost sight of is that many (if not most) of the buyers of the B&R project watch would have still bought one even if the price were higher. Sure, they would have lost a couple of sales but those would have been made up doubly once By-Tor, Pugwash, and others tore into the watches and reported a good product.

Speaking of which, and I think this was mentioned before, they had to have known that we, being who we are, would eventually tear into the watches. That is the puzzling part to me. Why did they think we wouldn't have a problem with this?

/Tim

[warburg]

The below is the e-mail I received from Joshua of perfect-clones aka WatchWindersWorld.

I asked if he could get me a better price on the Breitling Chronomat Evo.

After that e-mail, I just stopped buying from those 4 dealers.

Whatever they say is NOT justified, because they charge at least 200%-300% of the GuangZhou street price, and who knows how much more they charge out of factory price.

---------e-mail from joshua-------------

HI ,

Sorry .. no deal..you will not get this watch other than andrew, angus, king and me..

Quit trying cos we have all tied down the price..

thanks

joshua

But that isn't true because I received quotations of the lowest price on this watch with both the Asian 7750 movement and the Swiss 7750 movement from one of the "approved" dealers on this thread outside the accused gang of four in the cartel, and the prices were more or less the same as Joshua's. There were also other factors that made Joshua's offerings more attractive, such as the simplicity of clicking on a credit card rather than getting and posting an international money order.

[olivia]

..., I was just saying, as Olivia seemed to not understand what people's issues were, that Edge's (and everyone else's) issues was not primarily about price increases, but the dishonest and manipulative behaviour on the part of the Cartel (which would eventually lead to price rises) and that the best way to prevent those rises occuring, was to act against their dishonest and manipulative behaviour.

I understood Edge's assertion without reading it twice. I would not say everyone else's issues were exactly the same. I was only addressing the Cartel assertion/suspicion for which at the time there was no real evidence in this thread. More evidence has come forth since then, both here and in other forums. Just because I didn't address the Lies issue does not mean that I did not understand what was being put forth. The white lies ( now black lies? ) issue has been known for some time..at least since Pugwash's thread. As I see it, the only effective way to deal with any of these issues is to have a place( scammed?) in this forum where these issues are posted for fair warning to all members. As to whether King is a part of this, I still do not know...only Andrew's statement( do you believe it...yet you think he has lied about other things?); yet, look at Angus's statement( another lie?) about Josh and Andrew...seems that they will cut each other's throat to get business. Seems to me you cannot believe anything anyone says in the Replica world.

[r11co]

Speaking of which, and I think this was mentioned before, they had to have known that we, being who we are, would eventually tear into the watches. That is the puzzling part to me. Why did they think we wouldn't have a problem with this?

Which is why this thread was inevitable. The 'Little White Lies' thread was a warning shot that was treated with contempt.

[TeeJay]

I understood Edge's assertion without reading it twice. I would not say everyone else's issues were exactly the same. I was only addressing the Cartel assertion/suspicion for which at the time there was no real evidence in this thread. More evidence has come forth since then, both here and in other forums. Just because I didn't address the Lies issue does not mean that I did not understand what was being put forth. The white lies ( now black lies? ) issue has been known for some time..at least since Pugwash's thread. As I see it, the only effective way to deal with any of these issues is to have a place( scammed?) in this forum where these issues are posted for fair warning to all members. As to whether King is a part of this, I still do not know...only Andrew's statement( do you believe it...yet you think he has lied about other things?); yet, look at Angus's statement( another lie?) about Josh and Andrew...seems that they will cut each other's throat to get business. Seems to me you cannot believe anything anyone says in the Replica world.

Olivia, I already posted an email I received from another member who also pointed out that King was part of the Cartel. I am not naming names as it was a private transaction, but they had absolutely no reason to lie, or to mention it if it was not true. I believe Andrews comments about King being part of the Cartel for two reasons 1) he has no reason to lie about it. 2) I have heard independant of anyone who posted in this thread that King is part of the Cartel.

[TeeJay]

But that isn't true because I received quotations of the lowest price on this watch with both the Asian 7750 movement and the Swiss 7750 movement from one of the "approved" dealers on this thread outside the accused gang of four in the cartel, and the prices were more or less the same as Joshua's. There were also other factors that made Joshua's offerings more attractive, such as the simplicity of clicking on a credit card rather than getting and posting an international money order.

That email, is little more than propoganda on the part of the Cartel. They know that (untill yesterday) they had spotless reputations, and people believed anything they were told by them. If they tell someone that something isn't available (as a way of stopping someone looking further) then someone is likely to believe them. I emailed Joshua a while back about the possibility of purchassing one of the new SMP dials which are sans 3 marker, only to be told flat that the dials were not available.

Hi,

i am sorry sir. I do not sell spares.

thanks

joshua

At the time, I accepted that. But thinking about it, it is a load of BS. How many times has someone said they got a watch with a dodgy dial, only to then be shipped a new dial to swap over? If they can do it for X watch, they can do it for Y watch. The difference in circumstances, is that I was not seeking a replacement for a faulty item I had purchassed from them, so they have nothing to gain in letting me have a dial. The pittance they could charge for the dial would be nothing compared to what I would pay if I decided to just buy the whole watch... Sure, Joshua might not sell spares as a part of his website, but he could sure as hell lay his hands on one of the dials if he wanted to, or failing that, give the name of a contact who could... Of course, the price of a replacement dial, is simply not worth it, so I got a very swift and polite rejection.

[Pugwash]

Sure, Joshua might not sell spares as a part of his website, but he could sure as hell lay his hands on one of the dials if he wanted to, or failing that, give the name of a contact who could...

Just like an authorised service centre will have access to parts, it doesn't mean they will sell them, I see no fault in Josh's not selling parts.

[warburg]

I feel like a parrot. Prices are NOT THE ISSUE!!

Prices are NOT the issue? Now I am really confused!

[Aquaracer]

Price is THE ONLY THING-

That's why we buy these not so accurate, not so reliable, not so waterproof watches form not-so-honest guys in Not-so-democratic China- isn't it??

Otherwise we'd buy gens.

[Edge]

Just thought I would throw this into the mix......... Oh how the tables have indeed turned.......

Lately this has surfaced from some amatuer dealers and drop shippers who doesn't even get their hands on their watches or even take their own pics. Whether they are being misrepresented by their supplier or they delibrately misrepresent to trying to outbeat the competition.. I dun think this should be tolerated by the public here..

So guys , ask the right questions before you put your money on someone who does not even see, feel and have the knowledge to know the watches far enough ... Sapphire or Mineral, 21600bph vs 28800bph, AR vs Non AR, 14K vs 18K... Eta 2892 vs Swiss Eta 2892....

For the dealers who are misrepresenting to get the sales, compete on level playing gound....... I am really glad that these dealers are now doing this and that the sale went to them cos I know by misrepresenting , you have more to loose in the long term !

Thanks

joshua

Hi Pug,

First of all, I dun drop shipped watches. Every photo except the bags are shot by yours truly.. Every order went thru me and I personally picked up the watches myself ... If I dun do it, my employee will do it. I shipped all my packages myself.. I can give you trackings at a snap.. If I am drop shipper, I will not be able to do so.. As for the daytona.. well, we are dealing with a somewhat special situation.. with a very "special client". I still get the shorter end of the stick despite the efforts I put in..

Lemania, Seagull, Venus 75, Venus copy... Every dealer call them differently.. And there are many versions of it.. Some look like lemania, some look like Venus.. It is not a one description fits all situation.. I still prefer to call it lemania. But I will never say its swiss.

I am not bad mouthing the competition.. Look at the offers.. and you will see the misrepresentations.. I am merely pointing this fact out and telling the board members not to be misled by such misrepresentation.. As for sales... Its is never my concern for this post..

Thanks

joshua

some amatuer dealers and drop shippers who doesn't even get their hands on their watches or even take their own pics.

Now, Neither do YOU!!

Whether they are being misrepresented by their supplier or they delibrately misrepresent to trying to outbeat the competition.. I dun think this should be tolerated by the public here..

Neither do we, I wholeheartedly agree hence you will feel our wrath.

ask the right questions before you put your money on someone who does not even see, feel and have the knowledge to know the watches far enough ... Sapphire or Mineral, 21600bph vs 28800bph, AR vs Non AR, 14K vs 18K... Eta 2892 vs Swiss Eta 2892....

So that would be you then???......Or not!

For the dealers who are misrepresenting to get the sales, compete on level playing gound.......

Agreed, so please start...

I know by misrepresenting , you have more to loose in the long term !

Oh God I hope so...

I dun drop shipped watches.

Rubbish, your watches are made and shipped from china, and you don't live in China, your wife does but you don't visit that often

Every photo except the bags are shot by yours truly..

Oh really, I beg to differ, Photoshop is good but not THAT good, can anyone say Honpo's pics!!

Every order went thru me and I personally picked up the watches myself

More Verbal Diatribe!

Look at the offers.. and you will see the misrepresentations.

Oh we do josh, We DO!!!

I am merely pointing this fact out and telling the board members not to be misled by such misrepresentation

Thanks, much appreciated, but who protects us from you???

These quotes are directly taken from a thread at RWI, which can be found HERE, I amn't Lying this is GOSPEL, he said it, go and see for yourself.

Josh orers watches which are made and shipped from China by a third party, I have it on good authority from MORE THAN ONE dealer, and in fact from one of the Cartel, that he DOES NOT collect every watch and send them personally, it is another party in ANOTHER country from Josh who does this work.

SO MORE LIES, FOLLOWED BY MORE LIES!!!!!

[TeeJay]

Just like an authorised service centre will have access to parts, it doesn't mean they will sell them, I see no fault in Josh's not selling parts.

Then why sell straps and other accessories?

[Edit to add]

My point was not to find fault with Joshua not selling spares as a regular occurence, but to point out an example of how the Cartel tell people what they want them to think, knowing that their reputations (at the time) would mean people would take them at their word and stop looking for the item they were looking for.

[beancounter]

I don't post much, but have been a member of RWG and its predecessor for a long time. Which reminds me, at some point I need to take the ten seconds and start paying the board back for some of the knowledge I've gathered here. Over the months and years, I've dealt with a number of the dealers, and a number of members.

Edge is absolutely right about his main point; I am most concerned about the fact that some dealers lied to this community about the specifications and quality of their products, and they seem to be able to do so and get away with it.

I don't really care what price gets charged for what watch with whatever specs. In that regard, even if some dealers are colluding and fixing prices, market forces will eventually win out. Charge $300 for something that costs $80 to make, someone else is going to figure out a way to make the same thing and sell it for $299, and down the slippery slope to competitive pricing you go. The only way a cartel works in this forum is if the admins are in on the game, and refuse to allow any other dealers to post. We know that ain't true, and ain't happening, so price fixing is a temporary game, at best.

What really rankles is that some of the "trusted" dealers have been outright lying about what their products actually are. Saying something is an ETA 2892 means, at least to me, that it is a movement built from an ETA 2892 ebauche. I don't care if it is assembled in China, Switzerland, or Swaziland. If it was assembled by gnomes under a mountain in the Alps, let me know that and I might even be willing to pay the premium, but at least telling me it is an ETA 2892 gives me some comfort about the quality of mechanical components. But tell me it is an ETA 2892, and slip in a Seagull clone, and I feel cheated; in that case, tell me it is a "Seagull clone of an ETA 2892", and I will go find a The Zigmeister review to tell me if that movement is worth spending money on. Tell me the watch has an ETA 2892 and it comes equipped with a movement pulled out of a 1970 Chinese army watch, and I feel more than cheated, I know I have been ripped off.

This board was supposed to help prevent replica watch ripoffs. What it looks like right now is that RWG is helping to support these dealers and their fraudulent practices. So, why is the Board, which is really the community of members, allowing those who have lied to this community to continue to post their goods for sale here? Until those dealers who lied to this community not only apologize publicly for doing so, but also make good on refunds to those who bought goods based on their lies, ban them. We do it for members that negatively impact this community, shouldn't the same apply to dealers whose actions negatively impact a substantial number of members, too?

I believe others are also right about the fact that the dealers in question can change their web site names without issue, so long as they inform this board and a select few others. This community is a significant source of revenue for the replica dealer community. If we want to change the way those dealers deal with us, hit them in the wallet. Ban them until they make good on their past fradulent practices. Note this does not mean the members of any dealer network, without question, but the specific dealers who misrepresented, no, LIED, about what they were selling to us. And note I don't have any axe to grind on this, I didn't buy a B&R with Chinese Army movement, my last purchases were driven simply by looking for the best price with a dealer I believed I could trust to deliver the product promised, and those items were exactly what was advertised. But if we can't, as a community, trust a dealer to tell us the truth about what they are marketing, we have no obligation as a community to make it easy for them to rip us off.

[eddhead]

Two reasons you don't see the price fixing effect clearly and immediately.

1. Price has already been fixed and averaged.

2. It usually applies to NEW & HOT releases, such as Breit Chrono Evo, Steelfish, PAM 092, etc... No one else can carry them unless they also set the price high enough....

Why is price fixing bad? We already know the answer. They can manipulate the price as if it's a monopoly.

But the WORST THING is that we pay $$$$ and get LIED to and SCAMMED to.

If the 4 gangs want to fix the price, fine.

At least they will have to deliver WHAT WE ORDERED, but they didn't.

Anyway, I just don't buy from them (Andrew, Angus, Joshua, King).

And it's not even funny how they keep their silence for so long as if they are ignoring the situation.

If in fact they aree fixing prices, it is likely that they are doing so by cornering the supply of especially hot items. By so doing, they would be creating a scarcity on the wholesale or dealer market which in turn would make it more difficutl and in turn expensive for other dealers to purchase.

[Yannou]

So the 4 are (in no particular order)

Andrew

Josh

Angus

?

Who is the 4th?

I'm agree with this topic ...We have to be solidar and faced to this business practices...

In all businesses (legal or not) dealers have to respect their customers and don't lie them...Basics

The strenght of this forum is the power and influence on these dealers (delete their topics maybe...)

I'm sure that it'll be resolved...Just remember to them someday that we are not "milkcows"

Edited March 28, 2007 by Yannou

[Edge]

Have you read the thread??

Andrew, Josh, Angus, and King.

[Yannou]

Have you read the thread??

Andrew, Josh, Angus, and King.

yes.....sorry just modified my post..thks

[willster]

Have had the feeling something like this has been happening for a long time...my orders from two of the gang have been wrong and all screwed up...just attributed it to drop shipping issues

really sadt that trust has gone......a little like being violated

[bodhy]

Edge, congratulations because you had the big balls to start this....a huge thruth.

Why dont we ALL stop buying this dealers? if they not change this policy....we dont buy anymore, easy

[WatchDude]

Thanks to everyone that is contributing to this and most importantly to Edge.

The more I read about the situation, the more I want to *throw up*

Edited March 28, 2007 by Admin
Picture removed after complaints from members

[Physher007]

Thanks to everyone that is contributing to this and most importantly to Edge.

The more I read about the situation, the more I want to *throw up*

yeeuuugg....

You kill me.

I just hope that all of those we are simply reitteraterating Edge's sentiment (such as myself) are taking the time to go vote in on the poll happening next door.

And go donate.

[zetterdawg]

I don't really care what price gets charged for what watch with whatever specs. In that regard, even if some dealers are colluding and fixing prices, market forces will eventually win out. Charge $300 for something that costs $80 to make, someone else is going to figure out a way to make the same thing and sell it for $299, and down the slippery slope to competitive pricing you go. The only way a cartel works in this forum is if the admins are in on the game, and refuse to allow any other dealers to post. We know that ain't true, and ain't happening, so price fixing is a temporary game, at best.

Price fixing will also work if supply is controlled. In a lot of cases only the 4 cartel dealers can get the watches. Thus the artificially high watch prices are held up. Market forces won't win in that case. It is kinda the same thing with AD's. They get access to merch as long as them agree to sell at a certain price.

When folks say "price isn't the issue", I believe they mean if it WAS a fair playing ground where dealers represented the watch for what it was, and a bunch of dealers had access to the watch we'd see price become a non issue as the magic "market forces" would work it out.

Now as soon as you control supply or are willing to lie about what the watch is then your ability to figure out what you would feel ok paying for the watch gets broken.