Why Joshua (perfect clones) and Andrew (trusty time) are bad for rep collectors

[Victoria]

If this gentleman is the person I suspect you to be refering to, I would not consider his opinion as unbiassed.

But no opinion is unbiased in the rep world. If you mean that they have a stake in continuing to tout Andrew/Joshua/King/Angus for whatever reason, such as monetary or kickbacks, then I would have to have that proven too.

The thread 'The Time Has Come to Say Something', linked to above, features plenty of sources, including quotes of emails and forum posts by both Andrew and Joshua.

Two prime examples (literally 'from the source') being:

Page 8, Post # 146

That's important, but still second-hand information from a newbie with 16 posts to his name.

I'm an Historian. I know first-hand sources are of utmost relevance and importance to any retelling. This link below, quoting directly from Joshua, is much more damning:

Page 14, Post #262

"Guys .. dun be a Pug", says Jos Nana. (Now I know where that comes from, Puggy!)

But if you read closely, he clarifies that someone has used Madison Avenue trickery in advertising their product as "Super", so he had to go one better and call it "Outstanding".

I presume later on it became "Ultimate", today, the sine qua non of rep descriptions.

(Amusingly, there was a thread on RWI where it was claimed for Ruby that she didn't know what an "Ultimate" was. That perhaps her English was substandard, or that she simply wasn't in the know, because some dealers use different terms. Come on)

So. Do you still believe this gentleman who says there is no Cartel, or do you believe what you have seen with your own eyes?

What I read is that Joshua claims only 4 dealers have a certain model of a certain marque. They have tried to outdo themselves in their description, though basically it's the same 2 models -- one Asian, one Swiss.

I don't want to be trenchant about this, but this doesn't amount to a cartel, IMHO.

It's not even sharp business practise, though it is close, I'll say that.

But until someone can prove to me that these 2/4 people have in some way closed off supplies in the whole of the rep world, so that they form an indissoluble monopoly where they have price-rigged all watch brands, then that is not what is being claimed -- a cartel.

That is a partnership. And a loose one at that.

[Highflyingclive]

Too funny, really. With all the hundreds of scam dealers out there, Teejay and Slayer want to attack two of the best that we have.

I understands Slayer's motivation... he got angry when Jos wouldn't give him the level of discount he demanded.

TeeJay? Dunno. Sees himself as a saviour, I suppose, constantly repeating other people's posts, whilst never having dealt with either Jos or Andrew. Never will, now. His loss.

[FxrAndy]

There was a post of an email somewere (I cant be botherd to find it though) from one of the other collectors and i think it was Silix stating that the 4 would not allow him access to the newer better models, i think it was ref the HBB. And knowing a thing or two about under world and tactic therein i doupt they would be asking him nicely not to sell them!

[Victoria]

TeeJay? Dunno. Sees himself as a saviour, I suppose, constantly repeating other people's posts, whilst never having dealt with either Jos or Andrew. Never will, now. His loss.

A defence of TeeJay:

He presents his points in coherent sentences, unlike many others...

He has shown himself honest and generous in other occasions (to me personally, though he may be embarrassed to read this).

And at heart, I think TeeJay ONLY cares for this board's well-fare. That to me, isn't a crank.

He just has very stiff principles, and like FxrAndy apparently, has put his foot down about these dealers. The difference is that he wants us to put our feet down too.

But that doesn't make what he's doing dishonourable. Tiresome, but not dishonourable.

@Corgi: I just echoed a lot of what you said about owning reps, in the DSN Fiddy thread!

[jeff g]

Lies, no lies?

It seems to me that the entire issue is the pricing that these guys have begun to charge, and whether or not the product is worth the price.

For me as a consumer the real issue is what you get for what you pay, as well as the service that goes with it.

One of my gripes has been the cartels shipping charge in the last 6 months. 30.00 per item. It is crazy.

EMS tracking numbers are useless. Put it in the mail...take your chances. When dealing with King (Cartel member?) - No shipping charge - same pricing as the others. ??? Go figure.

Waterproofing? Correctly aligned bezels or..QC? - Non existent.

These guys, and many other dealer/collectors are drop shippers. They know NOTHING about what you are going to receive.

How many 'collectors' on this or the other Forums really examine the watches you receive? Good question. Any of us really know the answer? One of our most vocal dealer/collectors continually reiterates that he examines/tests all watches he ships. In a deal with him a few years back I received an Omega with a Rolex crown. I guess he missed that.

It is a crap shoot...plain and simple...'Rep is just rep.'

If you find a dealer that you personally trust...and he or she does right by you, consider yourself

lucky, and stick with them.

[Pugwash]

I'm going to stay out of this one apart from to confirm one thing. The so-called Cartel is real. If you don't believe it, that's fine, but don't be a d1ck about it.

"Only dealers that have this watch... Myself and Andrew.. Maybe Puretime and King cos we let them have it." - Jos Nana on the Ultimate Planet Ocean, Nov 2006.

"Guys .. dun be a Pug

Only 4 dealers have this watch... Slight difference in decriptions...and you guys think maybe there is 4 different versions ? noticed the simialrity in prices ? there is only 2 versions.. Swiss and Asian version...from one maker.

Someone pugtent the word "super" so I have no choice but to decribe the lume of the watch as "Outstanding" Lume.. Any relume modder in the house doing "oustanding" lume for USD 90 ? Please tell me....I do not want to step on their tail again....." - Jos Nana on the SFSO, Feb 2007.

"For your information, this price will always REMAIN at USD308. Swiss ETA 2824-2 movement is getting real scarce and even the Maker has to buy them in lots to keep. If you dont have connections with some Makers, you cannot even get a Swiss ETA 2836 cheaply. Like Josh say...there are ONLY 4 dealers offering this and they are all the same specs. Every dealer has a different way of calling it. I call my wife... DEAR.... Joshua call his wife..Darling...and the others.. I dont know. LOL... " - Trustywatchguy on the SFSO, Feb 2007.

[pabra]

...

Pug ... dun be a Pug!

[TeeJay]

But no opinion is unbiased in the rep world. If you mean that they have a stake in continuing to tout Andrew/Joshua/King/Angus for whatever reason, such as monetary or kickbacks, then I would have to have that proven too.

If they 'have a stake in things', no, I have no proof of that whatsoever, I am just pointing out that someone who is involved in the industry, and says "There's no Cartel" when those involved have admitted there is, comes across a nothing but a spindoctor on a damage-control exercise.

That's important, but still second-hand information from a newbie with 16 posts to his name.

Who cares how many posts the guy had. What is important, is the information presented. Second hand, it may be, but, it was still something Joshua himself wrote.

The same goes from the posts Andrew made on another forum, which I re-posted. They were something he personally said. That is not me making anything up, or even quoting another person's opinion about them, but Andrew's own comment.

I don't want to be trenchant about this, but this doesn't amount to a cartel, IMHO.

It's not even sharp business practise, though it is close, I'll say that.

But until someone can prove to me that these 2/4 people have in some way closed off supplies in the whole of the rep world, so that they form an indissoluble monopoly where they have price-rigged all watch brands, then that is not what is being claimed -- a cartel.

That is a partnership. And a loose one at that.

Regardless of how you want to define their business relationship, there is no denying the opinions in the two threads linked, which prove that there were outright lies about the products they were selling. Look at the comments of those who had good service from them, yet chose to boycot them because of their business practices. Surely that is sign enough that people's confidence in them is not unshakeable.

Too funny, really. With all the hundreds of scam dealers out there, Teejay and Slayer want to attack two of the best that we have.

Clive, how many of those 'hundreds of scam dealers' come on forum and cosy up to people to sell their watches, then pull dishonest tactics as mentioned in these threads?

TeeJay? Dunno. Sees himself as a saviour, I suppose, constantly repeating other people's posts, whilst never having dealt with either Jos or Andrew. Never will, now. His loss.

Never will? Says who? You? A&J? Either way, I really couldn't care less. I said before, and I'll say again, I wouldn't want to buy anything from either of them because they have been proven to be untrustworthy. So, apart from not giving someone the opportunity to [censored] me in the ass without even having the courtessy to give me a reacharound, what exactly am I missing out on,? Oh yeah, big loss there

Edited August 24, 2007 by TeeJay

[Pugwash]

Oh, and in defence of the price increases, it is clear that ETA movements are significantly more expensive than before and the dollar is significantly weaker.

[deltatahoe]

TeeJay? Dunno. Sees himself as a saviour, I suppose, constantly repeating other people's posts, whilst never having dealt with either Jos or Andrew. Never will, now. His loss.

well said, clive. there is a reason why josh & trusty are so popular (namely, their prompt communication and top quality after-sales service), and teejay will clearly never have the pleasure of dealing with them.

teejay's self-proclaimed aim is to inform/protect people, which i respect. however, in the end, it's up to each individual to do their own research and make educated decisions about what exactly it is they are purchasing, and what the relative benefits and/or downsides of who they purchase from. what i don't respect about teejay's manner is the condescending tone of quite a few of his posts, and the indignant way in which he regards people who choose to still support josh & trusty.

just my thoughts...

deltatahoe

btw, good to see you posting here at RWG clive

[fishgodeep]

First of all....respect to Vic, Clive and some others for sound judgement and balanced opinions.

I keep seeing this thread and similar ones raising their heads more and more ....the purpose of each bit of "bitching" continues to elude me.

I work in the mobile telecoms industry and have dealt with the largest retailers , networks and manufacturers across Europe at a senior level for many years now so have a pretty good understanding of this market and how it works.

I'm not saying this to blow smoke up my own *ss, but I'm sure that if you're here because you want "stylish" watches you'll have a stylish phone .....the two are some of the most outwardly obvious statements of style nowadays- the finishing touches yet essential to the whole 21st century lifestyle etc etc...

With that said ...do we cry "cartel" "price fixing" and "destruction of the known universe" when the latest phone is released and is only available on one Network and /or only sold in one retailer.........??....I don't think so.

Take the I-Phone ....States - AT&T only - due for launch in Europe - O2 in the UK , Orange in France , T-Mobile in Germany ....and they have done a deal where Apple get 10% of operator revenues - oh and the Networks have agreed not to subsidise the handset as is the norm on EVERY other Manufacturer.

Now I think that sounds far worse for the consumer who loses all choice and pays more- but as I'm sure you have worked out by now ...

There has been no outcry because what they are doing is perfectly legal and acceptable in the world of business and making money to look after your family and people you employ........oh and shareholders of course..(maybe your pension plan if you have one)

if you have a product that you have invested time, money and effort in you protect it's premium through strategic distribution alliances

As far as I can see , this is all that is happening between the makers and the 2,3 or 4 dealers that have been mentioned in these threads ....and as far as I'm concerned ...GOOD LUCK TO THEM....they are taking all the risks , volume commitments and really delivering a quality of product and service you struggle to get frm some global brands .....you try speaking to LG in the UK ...!!

Supply and demand dictates market pricing - not the dealers .......believe it or not it's all down to us the fact that better reps are costing more.

That said , these are some of the "largest" and most "succesful" dealers on this forum and if I have read my history correctly - people like Joshua have been around for quite some time. Clive states he's met him and he's a gentleman ....I have only corresponded and purchased circa 15-20 pieces from him and WITHOUT FAIL ....satisfaction 100% every time.

Yes there have been issues on some but as I'm a gentleman and he's a gentleman we never fall out and every single little problem is resolved amicably.

I have just received my replacement Arktos 092, I sent it back beacuse although it worked perfectly and I really liked it ....after posting on this forum and some eagle eyed members spotted the cyclops was the wrong size.

We had a little debate , I know it wasn't going to be easy for Joshua , but he took the first one back and 4 weeks later I get a perfect replacement

The B&R issue does sound like it needs to be killed ...been whining on for some time now and as far as I can see it was a sh*t movement sold overpriced .........Joshua ...suggest you resolve this as a step forward if you have not already done

Any way enough of my blah....done.

FGD

[giorgio]

That's important, but still second-hand information from a newbie with 16 posts to his name.

A noob who's been here almost a year compared to your month and a half?

I'm sorry but 1100 posts on who's got the best strap and how many times a day you go jogging doesn't make your opinion any more valuable than someone's experience. Period.

[FxrAndy]

ETA price rise ok, Shipping Price rise? Asian price rise? some of the watches have almost doubled in the last 18 months!

[Pugwash]

The B&R issue does sound like it needs to be killed ...been whining on for some time now and as far as I can see it was a sh*t movement sold overpriced .........Joshua ...suggest you resolve this as a step forward if you have not already done

It may have gone un-noticed, but both Josh and Trusty have very recently changed the description of the B&R to say "Asian 4813 Movement".

[TeeJay]

well said, clive. there is a reason why josh & trusty are so popular (namely, their prompt communication and top quality after-sales service), and teejay will clearly never have the pleasure of dealing with them.

teejay's self-proclaimed aim is to inform/protect people, which i respect. however, in the end, it's up to each individual to do their own research and make educated decisions about what exactly it is they are purchasing, and what the relative benefits and/or downsides of who they purchase from. what i don't respect about teejay's manner is the condescending tone of quite a few of his posts, and the indignant way in which he regards people who choose to still support josh & trusty.

just my thoughts...

deltatahoe

btw, good to see you posting here at RWG clive

If people were to accept the facts which have been presented on numerous occasions, rather than folks trying to justify the dealer's actions, then I would not be so condescending...

As mentioned above, I would not want to buy anything from either of them, so am missing out on absolutely nothing.

[Pugwash]

ETA price rise ok, Shipping Price rise? Asian price rise? some of the watches have almost doubled in the last 18 months!

I didn't say the entire current price is justified, but the price of making a replica has increased in dollar terms. TTK predicted it would a year ago and he was bang on the money. This hobby is more expensive than it was, much like concert tickets for your local band went up when they got popular.

I'm just reporting facts as opposed to taking one side and blindly bashing the pulpit.

ps. Oops, this is me trying to stay out of it for a while.

[pabra]

ETA price rise ok, Shipping Price rise? Asian price rise? some of the watches have almost doubled in the last 18 months!

Rice prise rise!

(had to)

[TeeJay]

First of all....respect to Vic, Clive and some others for sound judgement and balanced opinions.

I keep seeing this thread and similar ones raising their heads more and more ....the purpose of each bit of "bitching" continues to elude me.

I work in the mobile telecoms industry and have dealt with the largest retailers , networks and manufacturers across Europe at a senior level for many years now so have a pretty good understanding of this market and how it works.

I'm not saying this to blow smoke up my own *ss, but I'm sure that if you're here because you want "stylish" watches you'll have a stylish phone .....the two are some of the most outwardly obvious statements of style nowadays- the finishing touches yet essential to the whole 21st century lifestyle etc etc...

With that said ...do we cry "cartel" "price fixing" and "destruction of the known universe" when the latest phone is released and is only available on one Network and /or only sold in one retailer.........??....I don't think so.

Take the I-Phone ....States - AT&T only - due for launch in Europe - O2 in the UK , Orange in France , T-Mobile in Germany ....and they have done a deal where Apple get 10% of operator revenues - oh and the Networks have agreed not to subsidise the handset as is the norm on EVERY other Manufacturer.

Now I think that sounds far worse for the consumer who loses all choice and pays more- but as I'm sure you have worked out by now ...

There has been no outcry because what they are doing is perfectly legal and acceptable in the world of business and making money to look after your family and people you employ........oh and shareholders of course..(maybe your pension plan if you have one)

if you have a product that you have invested time, money and effort in you protect it's premium through strategic distribution alliances

As far as I can see , this is all that is happening between the makers and the 2,3 or 4 dealers that have been mentioned in these threads ....and as far as I'm concerned ...GOOD LUCK TO THEM....they are taking all the risks , volume commitments and really delivering a quality of product and service you struggle to get frm some global brands .....you try speaking to LG in the UK ...!!

Supply and demand dictates market pricing - not the dealers .......believe it or not it's all down to us the fact that better reps are costing more.

That said , these are some of the "largest" and most "succesful" dealers on this forum and if I have read my history correctly - people like Joshua have been around for quite some time. Clive states he's met him and he's a gentleman ....I have only corresponded and purchased circa 15-20 pieces from him and WITHOUT FAIL ....satisfaction 100% every time.

Yes there have been issues on some but as I'm a gentleman and he's a gentleman we never fall out and every single little problem is resolved amicably.

I have just received my replacement Arktos 092, I sent it back beacuse although it worked perfectly and I really liked it ....after posting on this forum and some eagle eyed members spotted the cyclops was the wrong size.

We had a little debate , I know it wasn't going to be easy for Joshua , but he took the first one back and 4 weeks later I get a perfect replacement

The B&R issue does sound like it needs to be killed ...been whining on for some time now and as far as I can see it was a sh*t movement sold overpriced .........Joshua ...suggest you resolve this as a step forward if you have not already done

Any way enough of my blah....done.

FGD

Yes, that's a very valid point about corporate alliances. The key difference here, is if someone is selling a specific phone, then they are actually selling the specific phone. They are not selling display 'blank' with blinking lights inside it. They are selling a specific product, as advertized. To do otherwise, would you not agree, is highly dishonest, not to mention illegal? This is my isue with A&J, as things like the B&R Fiasco revealed. They are advertising Product X to have movement A, but instead, it has movement B. How is that honest? As mentioned above, someone's dad got ripped off over a cheaper replacement, and not getting re-funded the difference. Again, how is that honest?

[deltatahoe]

I'm just reporting facts as opposed to taking one side and blindly bashing the pulpit.

[fishgodeep]

(FxrAndy @ Aug 25 2007, 12:19 AM)

ETA price rise ok, Shipping Price rise? Asian price rise? some of the watches have almost doubled in the last 18 months!

[Victoria]

A noob who's been here almost a year compared to your month and a half?

I'm sorry but 1100 posts on who's got the best strap and how many times a day you go jogging doesn't make your opinion any more valuable than someone's experience. Period.

And in that time I have purchased over 50 watches from several dealers condenscending YEARS worth of experiences into those self-same 2 months; posted to the best of my limited ability to make this forum a better place; and kept my whinging and personal attacks to a minimum.

From what I can see, this is much more than you have done in this one thread alone, so I'll thank you to keep your ad-hominen attacks to yourself. If not, please avoid me in future.

[Victoria]

stop buying = price decrease...bada bing

That is true, but I hate to break it to anyone who doesn't know (not you fishgodeep!) , but we are not the end-all, be-all of the rep world.

From what I can see, Joshua and Andrew's business has grown to massive proportions, in part but NOT IN TOTALITY, due to forum members' support of them for years.

But maybe they've outgrown their need on us, let's be honest.

I do know one thing for sure, is that if I were in their shoes, I wouldn't like to post in a board which considers what they do, and the risks they take, on a daily basis.

@Fishgodeep: Thanks! Reading the thread in reverse, so only read what you wrote before replying here.

[deltatahoe]

@teejay, i'm not going to argue w/ you about josh or trusty's honesty levels....

however, w/ regard to price fixing, what about this possibility:

the factory owner/maker of replica watches realizes: hey, if i buy a genuine watch, use it to make a high quality replica, fix the price at an above-average price given the quality of the replication, and limit the supply of these watches to the big dealers that can move high volumes of these watches, i can make a handsome profit. i'll also tell these dealers that if they start trying to compete with each other to drive down the cost of these watches, i will stop giving them exclusive supply to this product.

doesn't sound too far fetched to me...

deltatahoe

[giorgio]

And in that time I have purchased over 50 watches from several dealers condenscending YEARS worth of experiences into those self-same 2 months

I think you meant condensing, but condescending does fit better.

posted to the best of my limited ability to make this forum a better place; and kept my whinging and personal attacks to a minimum.

Who's "whinging"? and where did you see a personal attack (excluding your own post to me)?

From what I can see, this is much more than you have done in this one thread alone, so I'll thank you to keep your ad-hominen attacks to yourself. If not, please avoid me in future.

Get off your high horse. Someone summed it up nicely in the other thread, but twotone censored it for your benefit.

Seems like people really do line up...

I let you have the last word.....

Edited August 24, 2007 by giorgio

[Victoria]

Get off your high horse.

Enough. I am no one's punching bag. When you don't care for someone, what they write, how they are, where they come from, you state your peace and that's it.

You will not get a single reply from me, again, so I suggest you move on.