Pisssed off with the price of new reps!

[jeff g]

I agree and I disagree.

I too have paid over 400.00 for a rep watch. But only twice.

Once, for the original EL TW Pam 112 - 400.00 in 2004

Second, for the MBK Nautilus 430.00 in 2007.

The other 20 (+) reps I have purchased have been between 100.00 and 350.00.

I would NEVER pay 600.00 - 800.00 - 1000.00 for a rep watch. But 250.00-300.00

for an eta watch is reasonable in my estimation. Biggest problem I still believe, are the cost of most 7750's. in the high end reps. No matter what the fit and finish is like on those type watches they still have suspects movements.

Money is a relative thing in purchasing reps. I mean, 430.00 bucks for the MBK Nautilus was WELL WORTH IT. On the other hand 108.00 for my Omega GMT, was well worth it too. You get what you pay for, and what IT is worth to you.

Go to Canal St. and see what you get for 200.00 I guarantee it will NOT be worth the money.

No whining.

[Richard Tracy]

The main reason for high prices as I see it,... {if you don't have factory contacts.. }

Is there is no unity on any of the boards....

Many people here are as easy to sell as sailors in from a six month sea voyage,..

with their pockets full of cash and their brains full of goo...

We place such a high premium on new releases, heated up by peer pressure, and the illusion that

eta, the popularity of a gen counterpart, or shot in a movie, somehow makes it a better watch,

when in reality, many Asian movements are just as mechanically sound, and the perfect engine for a watch

which is, and always will be,.. a replica,..

Not to mention that 90% of the time the love affair with any rep, will grow

cold in a matter of days, if not seconds, like that let down after climax when that woman you thought

was sooo hot...is transformed into a grinning gap tooth hag...and the echo of your love song that got her

into the sack is haunting you with regret...

[Guest TTK]

You guys want to complain about the price of reps......here's a little exercise for you that will bring you down to earth with a BUMP.

1. Delete all cookies from your PC.

2. Eradicate ALL links and references to ANY "replica watch forum sites"....DIVORCE YOURSELF ENTIRELY FROM ALL REPLICAFORUMS..!

3. Do a fresh Google search for the watch of your choice....Sub ...PO....BCE....HBB.....whatever.....!

4. Instruct Google to speciically IGNORE any site or BB that has the word 'forum"..."collector"...."guide"...etc etc in it.

5. Research thru all the sites that show up ......find ONE site that offers you

A. The prices you get from dealers here.

B. The quality that you get from dealers here.

C. The guarantees that you get from dealers here.

• A 'firm' replacement DOA policy
  
• A 'firm" theft replacement policy
  
• A 'firm' Customs replacement policy
  
• A 'firm' guarantee of no abuse of CC details
  
• A 'firm" dedication to bringing you the best of replicas....instead of a 'firm' policy of bringing you reps that will bring them the most profit
  
• A 'firm' guarantee of replacement parts availability
  

Just close your eyes and imagine for one second what YOUR life would be like if there were NO replica forums.....if ALL these forums and dealers disappeared....and you had recourse ONLY to sites such as Fakeluxurygifts.com.......or Replicascamcenter......NO RWG....NO RWI.....NO REPGEEKS....NO TRC.....The Zigmeister didn't exist......By-Tor didn't post reviews that we can all glean the most insignificant details from.....along with all the other great members / dealers here...no modding tips......no great 1024x720 photos that you can study till your heart's content......instead of 199x 199 little jpegs........no dealer reviews ( other than Replicacenter's hyped up forum.)...!

WE WOULD ALL BE LEFT WONDERING IF REPLICASCAMCENTER....BLUEFAKES.COM....etc etc....would be sending us what we actually want.....what we see on their website...IF THE FAKE THEY'RE SENDING US IS GOING TOMATCH THE PHOTO THAT THEY'VE 'STOLEN' FROM THE MANUFACTURER'S WEBSITE........27j SWISS MADE Daytonas....GENUINE 18k Subs.....JAPANESE AUTOMATICS......which are really Chinese standard....but hyped up reps.....because the term Japanese has a better ring to it than Chinese.......!

And what would be the costs for these Chinese standard reps..such as the $108 Chopard or Noobmariner you can buy here........$175.00 AVERAGE...+ SHIPPING.

If the dealers and forums we enjoy the luxury of were to disappear tomorrow like snow off of a roof.....where would we all be.....!

I'll tell you where you'd all be...all Citizen or Seiko'ed up on your wrist...dreaming about the day you can buy a gen Sub......'cos the shitty one that you got from Bluefakes.com was just another cheap Canal St rep...that they sprung $250 for your wallet for....with glorified promises of SWISS this and SWISS that......27j / 35j and GENUINE Gold....!

And you would be wishing there was a website where you could get GENUINE information about what was best and who supplied it.....and yet ....here you are....if you SERIOUSLY thought that such a site and or dealers existed outside the confines of these boards.....you wouldn't be here....and you wouldn't be bitching about the prices that dealers in here charge for the benefits YOU receive.

Don't believe me......take a week off from EVERY replica forum and go do the exercise and the math.

Edited October 26, 2007 by TTK

[Rxus]

All points made are valid. But one person mentioned how Asian movements can be just as reliable or reliable enough for a rep. If factories were to use these cheaper and more readily available movements it would drive the cost down. But that doesn't seem to be the goal.

The SFSO could have been released ETA double AR for 4300+ and then the Asian Double AR for $200

Sure ive read rumors about this possibly happening in Nov. but this could be implemted heavily among other reps that don't really need a non chrono movement. Like those Noobmariners and their lack of ETA movements.. How much is the "super""duper" SD? near 300? why not slap an asian movement, and sell it for 200?

I realize this is one big game of luck, but i'm certain the dealers can understand the concept of "you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours"

[Bravoz]

Im burning about the shipping. It's just basically the mandatory extra $30 on top.

I bought a massive item from the US, shipped to New Zealand for US$35

I dont think it cost the dealers US$30 to ship such a tiny item.

[Guest TTK]

All points made are valid. But one person mentioned how Asian movements can be just as reliable or reliable enough for a rep. If factories were to use these cheaper and more readily available movements it would drive the cost down. But that doesn't seem to be the goal.

The SFSO could have been released ETA double AR for 4300+ and then the Asian Double AR for $200

Sure ive read rumors about this possibly happening in Nov. but this could be implemted heavily among other reps that don't really need a non chrono movement. Like those Noobmariners and their lack of ETA movements.. How much is the "super""duper" SD? near 300? why not slap an asian movement, and sell it for 200?

I realize this is one big game of luck, but i'm certain the dealers can understand the concept of "you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours"

Try telling the above to Replicascamcenter or Fakeluxurygifts.com....!

You will find no more eanest an advocate of Asian movements than I Sir......but the demand on these forums is driven by the members...and has always been focussed on Swiss....misleading other members into a belief sytem that ONLY Swiss movements should be accepted as de rigeur in a fake......I have hundreds of Asian mov't reps....all as perfectly reliable as Swiss.

Ask yourselves another few questions.

1. How many people in Asia....!

2. How many wear Chinese mov't watches.

3. How many doyou think are walking about muttering.."if only my watch was Swiss"

4. How many are late forappointments perhead of population ...compared to other nations such as the Swiss.

5. How many of them when they go to bed at night.place their watch on the bedstand...close their eyes...and utter a prayer to Buddha...."please Lord Buddha....let this not be the night that the mainspring bursts and I am showered in tiny gears and cogs...with the mainspring slashing my extended wrist. "

Not hardly.

[Terje]

Personally I`m very new to the hobby so I don`t really know from experience that the prices have gone up. Also, my first rep is in the mail, or will be soon, so I don`t even know what kind of a quality I have paid for. I would like to say though that thanks to this and other forums with their reviews and recommendations, I feel confident that the watch I will be receiving in a few days will be of excellent quality. I also feel confident that the dealer that I chose to purchase my first rep from will stand by his words. The question is then "what am I buying?" I`m not just buying a watch..a rep. I`m buying confidence! To me, that`s worth a lot! Obviously, that doesn`t explain dramatic price increases, but it more than justifies the price level we`re at now the way I see it.

[Guest TTK]

As for the question of shipping......I can't speak for all dealers....only myself....I usuallygive 'free' shipping on most of my lower priced items......!

EMS on the other hand costs approx 1100 baht....converted to $$ at current rate ...that works out at $33.00......so I don't think any dealer is striping the customer at that price...it;s the average market price.....!

It's like insurance...you can always opt for a lesser policy....with fewer frills.....but you can't buy a Merc for the price of a Skoda.....!

[KB]

Yes valid points Neil but lets not forget it is a two way street here, remember the fish in a barrel analogy and the fact that many outside dealers would give all you mentioned and more to share in the rich pickings.

Ken

[Guest TTK]

@Ken.....that may be the case.....but the obverse side of that is that the dealers here may at sometime decide to deal with the chattering classes who don't have the advantages that members here do......earn higher profits for a reduced amount of culpability.

BTW....all these 'fish in a barrel'......are not captive...they are free to leave at any time...as many have....as you say.....it's a 2 way street....the dealer has to make the choice of whether there is enough profit in the deal....just as the buyer needs to decide whether it's worth it to him.....if it's not a win-win situation....one of them will leave....take his custom elsewhere....or find another customer who does think it's worth while....nobody gets their arm twisted in here....and nobody is getting ripped off.....hence the number of members who find this place...because they did get ripped off externally...or sensed the potential risk.

So...let's dispel this stupid myth that you are trying to perpetuate....THERE ARE NO FISH IN A BARREL HERE.....the door's always open.

BTW....you of all people should APPRECIATE the service you get in here.....go ask Chang and Wu.....

IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THERE IS MORE SECURITY AND BETTER DEALS TO BE HAD IN HERE.....IF THAT WEREN'T THE CASE....WE'D ALL BE READING ABOUT HOW THIS IS A SCAMSITE ON REPLICACENTER....!

Edited October 26, 2007 by TTK

[TeeJay]

So...let's dispel this stupid myth that you are trying to perpetuate....THERE ARE NO FISH IN A BARREL HERE.....the door's always open.

Sure, the door's always open and people have the freedom to choose as they like, but, don't forget, that the major opinion generated by the forum, is that only forum recommended dealers are trustworthy, and that all external dealers are scam artists, and every time a new person comes to the forum and sees that majority opinion, it does not give them the confidence/desire/inspiration to consider looking elsewhere, so, as you say, yes, the door's always open, but, the fish in a barrel analogy certainly applies for making people think that the sources here are the only sources...

[jeff g]

Perhaps the cost of some reps have gone up. So what? If you don't want to pay the cost of the 'Super reps' then don't.

As I have stated before, the costs of new releases always seems to be higher when initially offered, than they do after a month or two. If you don't want to pay the higher prices then don't. Wait. Purchase it later. If the cost doesn't come down to a place you feel comfortable with, then don't buy it.

400.00 for a 112 back in 2004. Was I crazy or what? No, I wanted IT.

I haven't purchased a Big Bang...want to know why?...didn't want to pay 600.00 or 800.00 for it.

TTK is absolutely correct in his assessment of the dealer situation on these boards. Our dealers are trustworthy for the most part. Cartel bashers will of course disagree, but nevertheless, the dealers on these boards offer the best product currently available for the best prices, and guarantees. How can you beat that?

Watch too expensive in your estimation?...don't buy it.

[TeeJay]

Perhaps the cost of some reps have gone up. So what? If you don't want to pay the cost of the 'Super reps' then don't.

As I have stated before, the costs of new releases always seems to be higherwhen initially offered, than they do after a month or two. If you don't want to pay the higher prices then don't. Wait. Purchase it later. If the cost doesn't come down to a place you feel comfortable with, then don't buy it.

400.00 for a 112 back in 2004. Was I crazy or what? No, I wanted IT.

I haven't purchased a Big Bang...want to know why?...didn't want to pay 600.00 or 800.00 for it.

TTK is absolutely correct in his assessment of the dealer situation on these boards. Our dealers are trustworthy for the most part. Cartel bashers will of course disagree, but nevertheless, the dealers on these boards offer the best product currently available for the best prices, and guarantees. How can you beat that?

Watch too expensive in your estimation?...don't buy it.

'For the most part' is not so much the issue here, and this is not about 'Cartel Bashing', but the 'fish in a barrel' scenario which Ken brought up, and TTK outright said does not exist.

As I said above, I entirely agree with TTK, people can buy from whoever they want, but, the discussions generated on the forum could, to the uninitiated, create the utterly false impression that the dealers here are the only reputeable dealers available anywhere, and this is simply not the case. Sure, some of the dealers on the sales sites like CQout or LoudFrog might not have access to the Super Reps, and sure, some of them might be more expensive than the 'recommended collectors', but, some of them are cheaper.

Barring manufacturing flaws on two watches (which my dealer promptly replaced without any hassle or attempts to screw more money out of me), and a different drop-shipping dealer delivering the wrong watch (which they also replaced without hassle) the only time I have actually had a problem with the transaction of a deal, was while using a 'recommended collector'. The only time I have read about watches not being as promised (ie serviced or waterproofed) was, once again, when people had brought from (a different) 'recommended collector'.

Now, I'm not saying that all the 'recommended collectors' here are distrustworthy or that they should all be tarred with the same brush, all I am saying, is that if people are prepared to look around, or know contacts, they can get reasonable watches at reasonable prices, without a lot of the troubles I've read about on the forums, or experienced myself (coming up on 12 weeks and still no replacement dial as promised by the 'recommended collector', nor the jubilee bracelet which was purchassed and paid for at the same time and never arrived) and, as TTK pointed out, people are free to do that. But, as mentioned, the impression given, certainly to the untrained eye, is that these 'recommended collectors' are the only reliable sources anywhere, and a newcomer is as likely to go with the group line, rather than think to look elsewhere, hense, the 'fish in a barrel' situation mentioned by Ken. Sure, it might be a 'self-imposed' situation, but little is done to discourage it, or to encourage people to explore other potential sources.

[Craytonic]

I used to buy 1-2 a month, now I buy 2-3 every six months.

[Guest TTK]

Sure, some of the dealers on the sales sites like CQout or LoudFrog might not have access to the Super Reps, and sure, some of them might be more expensive than the 'recommended collectors', but, some of them are cheaper.

Cheaper they may be....but they do NOT provide the same servce as dealers here.....you buy from a CQout / Ebay / Ioffer dealer.....and your item gets seized....or stolen....he'll be waving his postal receipts in your face and the auction sites......quicker than Paris Hilton responds to 'Action"..........especially when it comes to the more expensive items......and let's not forget their positive feedback.....from buyers who are in most instances signifcantly less educated about the differences in reps than members here are......ignorance is bliss...CQOut and Ioffer sellers enjoy the same benefits as scam web sites do....an ill-educated buying public...don't ask me to believe that ALL the newer members here.....didn't browse ANY auctionsites before ending up and remaining here....!

And the 'fish in a barrel' belief is still a crock of [censored]....the phrase is meant to outline the lack of opportunity for escape....ANYONE can avoid the fishing hooks in here.....!

Edited October 26, 2007 by TTK

[giorgio]

First, I have to say that I agree with just about everything you said, TTK. I bought most of my stuff on those sites, and even when you know what questions to ask, the sellers either lie, or pretend not to speak English. I got a couple of great deals on there (two tone ultimate BCE for $250 shipped, 116509 Daytona for $180 shipped) but they started off as low ball offers on $500 asking prices and took half a week of bargaining to negotiate. I got lucky and nothing went wrong.

My first rep, however, was a Swiss Sea Dweller with "King size" box set for $200. I got an asian sea dweller with the small (cheap) rep box, no tags, no wallet, no anchor, no engraving on the caseback, and a seller who vanished after I complained.

I think the "fish in a barrel" reference in this case just means it's easier to sell to a bunch of people who are actually/actively looking to buy the stuff. The fact that we are educated helps both the buyer and the seller. You'd be amazed how many people I know still believe you can buy "fake" watches for $20 and some of the offers I see people make on ioffer are absurd.

[geo1nah2a]

1. I purchased a HBB RG PC at high euros. I didn't want a second hand omega. Or a Hamilton. Or 3 more modded PAMs. I didn't purchase it earlier with the hope of it going down.. It didn't. I wanted it . I got it. I have a lite SS SS traveling my way to average the price. If the ceramic version goes down in the future, I will get one more.

2. I see none complaining over the timezone forum about the prices. That iwc3717 is overpriced or not? How about the HBB SS PC?

3. Wait a few months for the price of a new release to come down. Then Thank the early adopters that payed the initial prices. Look at the swiss breit sfso from silix... If you didn't get one, you should not complain. How about the last 111H? Is that a ripoff too?

4. If there is really an opportunity for profit, then jump in it. Not with group buys, this is too limited. Run a dealership. Instead of restricting the demand to lower the equilibrium price, make a new supply channel. Keep us posted on your profit and loss. I wouldn't mind contributing in such a venture, but I doubt there is a market in the gap.

5. Look at the communication, customs protection, product presentation, and product development we are getting from our collectors. This comes at a cost. If you think you could do it for less, look at the point above.

6. Would I love to have the same exact services and replicas for 40% less? Yes. Do I think a boycott will lower the price? No. We are not the only ones on the demand side. Are there other channels that you can get the same watches (not services) for less? For the most models, Yes, and good luck.

KR

G

[Watchmeister]

You cheap bastards! You don't like the price or you don't have the money than don't buy. Whining is not going to do a thing to drop price. Not buying them might - if our purchasing power actually makes a difference. No idea whether this is the case.

Anyone who is an early adopter of a watch pays the price (too much) and takes the risk (does it fall apart, does it tell time? ). I now try to wait or to buy in the second-hand market. But I am one who is glad the super reps are here and I am glad our dealers offer them. And yes we would all like them cheaper... Either go find different dealers or go make more money.

[ironmarshal]

Cheaper they may be....but they do NOT provide the same servce as dealers here.....you buy from a CQout / Ebay / Ioffer dealer.....and your item gets seized....or stolen....he'll be waving his postal receipts in your face and the auction sites......quicker than Paris Hilton responds to 'Action"..........especially when it comes to the more expensive items......and let's not forget their positive feedback.....from buyers who are in most instances signifcantly less educated about the differences in reps than members here are......ignorance is bliss...CQOut and Ioffer sellers enjoy the same benefits as scam web sites do....an ill-educated buying public...don't ask me to believe that ALL the newer members here.....didn't browse ANY auctionsites before ending up and remaining here....!

And the 'fish in a barrel' belief is still a crock of [censored]....the phrase is meant to outline the lack of opportunity for escape....ANYONE can avoid the fishing hooks in here.....!

As a member who only recently found this site (after coming across several scam sites and looking for better information) I have no illusion about the range of collectors out there. If the collectors on this board have high quality watches that I like then I don't mind them making some money off the deal, especially if I can be reasonable assured of quality service if something goes wrong. It's all about the value proposition...I'd rather pay a little more and get good service from a reputable collector than save a few bucks and take my chances.

It all seems like simple economics to me....the collectors try to find a price point that maximizes profit. If the price is to high and the value proposition isn't there then enough people won't buy and they'll lower prices.

[dvn]

As a member who only recently found this site (after coming across several scam sites and looking for better information) I have no illusion about the range of collectors out there. If the collectors on this board have high quality watches that I like then I don't mind them making some money off the deal, especially if I can be reasonable assured of quality service if something goes wrong. It's all about the value proposition...I'd rather pay a little more and get good service from a reputable collector than save a few bucks and take my chances.

It all seems like simple economics to me....the collectors try to find a price point that maximizes profit. If the price is to high and the value proposition isn't there then enough people won't buy and they'll lower prices.

I don't mind neither for the dealers to make some money but We are not talking about a little profit here.

Not to mentioned how they control the availability of the reps in the market and set their prices to their liking.

[Johnkaz]

I for one don't think the dealers are trying to rip us off. They need to make a profit to survive, there are issues with customs that most of our dealers stand straight on. What most of the dealers we have here are doing is adding value, which is simple marketing. Go and buy a new car you want Basic, Deluxe, Super, Sports, all the same thing different specification it's your choice. Several of the dealers here offer good value inexpensive reps Neil and Reg for example, often list products at

[Guest TTK]

Well said John....and here's the proof.....I can sell these off-board......because the people I deal with off-board are less knowledgable I can command a higher price....and I do...when I am approached to source a 'good' quality rep by an 'outie"..I tell them it can be up tp 10% of the price of the genuine.....up to 5000GBP....and up to 5% of the price up to 10,000 GBP.....I tell them they will get 95-98% of the genuine....for 10% of the price.....they never quibble....they thi!nk it's a great bargain....the only thing they demand in the case of Rolex is a box and papers...!

I bought this in for someone 'offboard".....he's a reasonably well heeled guy who comes to Thailand regularly on extended holiday.....he likes watches....he's bought a lot from me...he saw this in an in-flight magazine or airport mag and asked if I could get it....I showed it to him..he bought it at 10% of the RRP.....he gets a 1 year unequivocal guarantee...serviced by my watchsmith.....and he couldn't be happier.....!

Edited October 26, 2007 by TTK

[Bearcat]

Im really Pisssed off with the price of new reps these days

Why do people continue to buy reps above the $300 mark?

The time has come to STOP!!!!!

STOP BUYING AND THE DEALERS WILL HAVE TO REDUCE THEIR PRICES!! SIMPLE!

This has to be a complete forum effort. We are all simply giving the dealers more excuses to increase the price even more.

Look at the New Breitling blackbird, ok a new movement, with secs at 3 and a big date, so what!! and its an ASIAN MOVEMENT!! NOT SWISS. $400 is too expensive.

Am i alone in thinking this??

I repeat

STOP BUYING AND THE DEALERS WILL HAVE TO REDUCE THEIR PRICES!! SIMPLE!

Are we all mad. if you were to carry out a survey a year ago and ask:

'would you spend $400 on a rep with asian 7750 movement'. Most of the answers would be NO.

On another point if you were to carry out a survey a year ago and ask:

'would you spend $600/$600/$1000 on a HBB rep with Asian 7750 movement'. EVERYONE WOULD SAY NO

Guys and Gals this HAS TO STOP.

[rant]

Amen, Brother Joe!

They are gouging us because we are DUMB enough to pay it. I agree, it has to stop.

The prices are ridiculous for relatively poorly made watches that have about a 30% defective rate and, once bought, have less than 50% of their value in the resale market. Compare the quality of $300 reps to the average $200 Seiko....Your Seiko lasts longer, runs better, and has a resale value of about 90% of the purchase price a year or two later. No expensive "mods" needed....Could never see why we pay $100-150 to have a rep "lumed" when $80 Seikos come with lume you can read by in a tent. Are we just suckers, or what?

So here is what I am going to do...and I suggest others do the same. Get this STRAIGHT in 2008! Boycott all dealers for one year!

I am sending a brief note to all dealers, to wit:

"Dear Andrew, Josh, Neil, Ruby, Angus, et al.:

The prices for reps is out of control. I am not a huge customer...I buy only 6 to 10 reps per year in total. Until prices come down, I will stop. While I would like to continue to support you, I just will not be ripped off by these new prices. In order to help bring prices into a more reasonable range, I am refraining from patronizing any dealers for the 2008 calendar year, or until prices come down to a reasonable level. This is not a matter of economics so much as it is a matter of principle.

See you in 2009 (maybe).

Sincerely,

BC"

If they all got a couple of hundred emails like this, we would see a dramatic change. You can be sure of it.

Feel free to copy and paste my message into your own letter.

Also, check out the gen watch forums. There are some really nice timepieces there which are much more affordable and a much better investment than most of our reps. And who are we kidding with these replica watches? Only ourselves, I'm afraid.

www.pmwf.com (Poor Man's Watch forum) or timezone.com are good places to start.

If you do continue to purchase reps, then buy and sell them among one another. The dealers have raped and pillaged for too long.

[/rant]

Edited October 26, 2007 by Bearcat

[Guest TTK]

Yeah....see ya wouldn'y wanna be ya....!

I am refraining from patronizing any dealers for the 2008 calendar year

TRANSLATION:.....I'm bang out of readies for a year....so no purchases for me....but in order to avoid looking cheap....I'll pretend I'm protesting....

Edited October 26, 2007 by TTK

[KB]

Ok lets just for a second understand what I said back there.......As far as I am concerned if someone wants to spend $1000 plus on the latest Frappuccino BB then it is nobodies business but there own.

That said to say the fish in a barrel analogy doesn't exist but then in the same breath say "hey if you don't like our prices you can leave" is so totally what I meant.

I mean time for a wake up call.....The dealers do not own these sites they are here at the grace of the Admin and as such have access to the cheapest advertising of the wares on the Net.

This...

I think the "fish in a barrel" reference in this case just means it's easier to sell to a bunch of people who are actually/actively looking to buy the stuff.

Is exactly what I meant and damn right it exists or we would have a bloody hard job keeping dealers on these boards in the first place.

Ken