watcher Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 As you all know I decided to be a GuineaPig with this seller and here are pics and thoughts of the whole transaction. The deal was handled very smoothly by WM9 and I cannot fault that. Price is open to your own views but YES it is overpriced and will no doubt become available from TW dealers in the future. He was prompt with status emails and when I received an email saying the watch had shipped it had already been sent and arrived the next day. It was shipped from Taiwan and took 3 days to the UK. The watch..... The case is well done with hallmark signs that this is a new version of the traditional TW case that has been around for a whle. The rehaut is now a little more shallow and looks very close now to the OEM model. As a result the crown now sits a bit higher in the guards and has also allowed them to fit an OEM sized crown tube(maybe all sport Rollies will have this soon. New SD has this too). The bezel insert clicks into the bezel ring which fits over a shim that holds down the crystal and seals(as per MBW Vintage models). I beleive this is very much like the OEM fitting. On mine the insert popped out slightly but I have now improved that by removing the thick double sided sticky tape underneath and now fits more flush inside the bezel. The bezel has nicely cut teeth and clicks smothly. Also the leading edge of the bezel stands out as per the gen model. The crown guards are not bad but do need tweaking a little. They extend well from the case around the crown which is a little too fat and will be replaced with a gen crown in the future. The general finsh of the case etc is very nice. The crystal stands about the right height above the bezel but the cyclops is wonky and the magnification is a bit too strong(I'm currently fixing this issue with another cyclops plus other alterations which I will show later this weekeknd). The rehaut width is not as good as TW's of old(Bytor's gripe of modern reps) but at least the white seal is not visible on this one! The dial is an older looking MBW/TW type but it's fine for now. The printing is crisp and not over white or thick. The hour markers sparkle well and appear evenly lumed( brightness not too bad either). The date wheel is rubbish and by the middle of the month it is way out of alignment. I have already stripped the movement and replaced it with a better wheel. The movement is a nice new eta 2836-2 and the seals have been greased before assembly. The bracelet is a pretty good effort although fitted with solid centre links it does feel more solid than some with 3 peice end links that are well cut and not too humped either. They are slightly too long though as with most reps which means the next link does not fit inside the lugs far enough. It has the standard crappy sticker on the case back which older rep guys will recognise from the River/EddieLee days of TW watches. On the whole I think this is the closest 'out of the box' yet in terms of overall dimensions but certainly not 1:1. With a bit of mix and match you can create an exceptional rep with this as the base. I have stripped it down completely and carried out some small alterations and I will ost updated pics when rebuilt later tonight for you to judge on whether it looks better or not. Now for some pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher Posted October 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 More pics. Forgot to add that is is stamped between the lugs Z891104. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportsterRider Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Looks very good to me. Thanks for the quick review and the pics. Hopefully, we'll see this version being offered by our 'regular' dealers soon! SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Like my initial impression... I think it looks great. Not 1:1, but definitely the best out there so far. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with the front rehaut thickness, as it's not as thick on 16610 as on SeaDweller. The rehaut profile looks superb, which alone places this above anything previously available. The bezel teeth not quite as sharp (maybe), pearl is absolute shite, and the SELs aren't properly "recessed", but those are minor problems really. Here's a quick comparison: WM9 and gen: Gen side profile: Thanks Watcher!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsons Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 The Sub looks excellent to me as well. This is first time I've seen a bezel assembly that looks very close to the gen's mechanism. i wonder if a gen bezel would fit this one? In addition, the crystal presses all the way down against the case with a retaining rig that seals it in place. As far as I know, this is also a first and again, the same design as the gen. This watch if properly sealed should be good for diving with zero problems. With the addition quality insert pearl, this is one very, very nice 16610. Many thanks for posting this watcher! Excellent photos!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 It's already obvious that this is superior to the new SeaDweller release in almost every possible way. The most important thing... thing that's impossible to modify: case/rehaut/crystal combo, has been replicated extremely well. Actually this is the first time we see a decent 16610 case. Both Noobmariner and MBW/TW Best cases were quite good, but not as good as this. This is kinda the "best of both worlds"... Nooby's perfect rehaut thickness and look, and TW's (improved) depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsons Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Agree, BT! This is the best 16610 I have seen and not just in appearance but also execution.This Sub copies the assembly of the gen which is a first since the MBWs. The new Sea-Dweller was a total disappointment & a sad comparison to this. The good news if that we now know what can be accomplished and hopefully, we'll see more of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Great review and highly anticipated. I'll just agree with By-Tor and leave it at that. Cheers, Watcher! I'll be looking forward to this becoming widely available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher Posted October 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 You guys are making me feel a little better about throwing $499 at this watch!!! Here are a couple of pics now I have modded it slightly. Done the following: Stripped and polished the case inlcuding the rehaut Opened out the CG's a little Fitted a better pearl and recessed the insert better And the best improvement, new cyclops with a better magnificaton and new date wheel with closer fonts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cib0rgman Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Wow, The submariner looks pretty good to me. I will buy this one in a heartbeat Is the best one out of the box and since some of us have the ability to do some mods. I do not see a problem getting this one. One thing that I would like to know is. Do this watch take a gen Insert or Dial. I hope that is available soon from our dealers, The new SD did not met me expectations. I really like it. looks like our search is near to the end of the Best sub, of course there is no better sub that a gen Rolex. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bklm1234 Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Thanks, watcher, for making a sacrifice to get this watch at $499 and reviewing it. I too vote it's the best sub to date. It's not a 1:1 but we are onto a another level of sub rep at the high end. Basically we have a new MBW. The good, improvement with respect to MBW: - correct rehaut, depth and thickness - gen bezel assembly construction - takes gen crown with stock tube. you might not even need a gen crown 'cause the stock one looks mighty good - crystal almost the same as gen. Bevel is correct. Only they still didn't implement the last 1% which is the transition from front to the bevel should be rounded not sharp. But hey, it's a rep! - accurate bezel profile, top, side, bottom all have right dimension. - accurate CG profile, no funny bottom cuts like on the MBW. The bad, funny that MBW has exactly the same issues: - CGs still needs trimming but less is needed - crown still not high enough but can't ask for this and want a economical price - bad dial. Get a noob dial. - bad datewheel overlay. Get a noob datewheel overlay. - bad bracelet, SELs have wrong shapes. Get a noob bracelet. - bad pearl - bad cyclop - poor teeth cuts, cutting into the bezel lip like the current MBW. this disappoints me the most. Look at this pic: can the factory not screw this up? Damn! Again a new MBW is born. You still need to mod it to perfection. Looks like noob parts are in demand. -bk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rek001 Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Good for you, watcher, your curiosity has been rewarded. Wow, I was expecting a lot more criticism, and comments like "the Noobmariner is better, you could have saved $400". How about it, we finally have an answer to who has the best Sub! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake48 Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Watcher - excellent review and very nice watch. You did not throw your money away. For whatever it is worth, in my quest to build a 'perfect" Sub I have spent close to three times what you have into that watch and my Sub is not near as good as that one. I do agree, however, that the watch is overpriced and I really appreciate that you bit the bullet and took a chance - I think you did fine. Hopefully we will see this watch at other dealers for a lower price. If we don't, then you really scored a classic! Also - I too ordered a watch from Wm9. I ordered the Black dial TT and received confirmation that it will be ready to ship mid November. I hope my watch is a s good as yours and I have a few gen parts to put on it so I hope I end up with a smoke'n TT. I will post pictures and a detailed review when I receive the watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 wow you didnt waste anytime modding it!! looks very good but it seems to require the same mods as an MBW and its almost double the cost. Did you swap the crown and tube or does it actually come with a tube that thick? If so thats a huge improvement over the MBW and helps justify the cost. ALso i prefer the solid link bracelet but that just personal preference i guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cskent69 Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 You guys are making me feel a little better about throwing $499 at this watch!!! Here are a couple of pics now I have modded it slightly. Done the following: Stripped and polished the case inlcuding the rehaut Opened out the CG's a little Fitted a better pearl and recessed the insert better And the best improvement, new cyclops with a better magnificaton and new date wheel with closer fonts Are my eyes decieving me? Did you fix the bracelet fit in the lugs, or is it just the angle. Also - you have to tell us how you changed that cyclops. Very nicely done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perry563 Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 I went to the watchmaker9 website and I see TWO subs for sale. One is the Z series while the other is an F series. The F series costs considerably more. What is the difference??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kollektor Posted October 20, 2007 Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 BK, once again you taught me something new. Love your macro shots with the arrows. Would be great if you created a post identifying all of the issues. Thanks again for your contribution, Mate! Thanks, watcher, for making a sacrifice to get this watch at $499 and reviewing it. I too vote it's the best sub to date. It's not a 1:1 but we are onto a another level of sub rep at the high end. Basically we have a new MBW. The good, improvement with respect to MBW: - correct rehaut, depth and thickness - gen bezel assembly construction - takes gen crown with stock tube. you might not even need a gen crown 'cause the stock one looks mighty good - crystal almost the same as gen. Bevel is correct. Only they still didn't implement the last 1% which is the transition from front to the bevel should be rounded not sharp. But hey, it's a rep! - accurate bezel profile, top, side, bottom all have right dimension. - accurate CG profile, no funny bottom cuts like on the MBW. The bad, funny that MBW has exactly the same issues: - CGs still needs trimming but less is needed - crown still not high enough but can't ask for this and want a economical price - bad dial. Get a noob dial. - bad datewheel overlay. Get a noob datewheel overlay. - bad bracelet, SELs have wrong shapes. Get a noob bracelet. - bad pearl - bad cyclop - poor teeth cuts, cutting into the bezel lip like the current MBW. this disappoints me the most. Look at this pic: can the factory not screw this up? Damn! Again a new MBW is born. You still need to mod it to perfection. Looks like noob parts are in demand. -bk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magick1 Posted October 20, 2007 Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 (edited) I went to the watchmaker9 website and I see TWO subs for sale. One is the Z series while the other is an F series. The F series costs considerably more. What is the difference??? If you look at WM9 site you will see that the Z series is more than the F series..... F series is $529.99 us and the Z series is a total of $655.99...the $375.99 you see on the 1st page is just the deposit in order for you to place an order for December delivery. Edited October 20, 2007 by magick1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher Posted October 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 I have done nothing to the lugs so I guess it is the photo angle and as for the cyclops, I have crued but effective method with a large mallet!!.....................no only joking. I heat the crystal up using tongs to hold the crystal over my gas hob flame until it softens the glue and then it should just pop off after about 20-30 seconds. Clean both items up and then re-apply using masking tape to border the area where the crystal will sit and bond it using Areldite glass epoxy. It sets in around 20 minutes. I clean off the area around the cyclops with a sharp craft knife and heh presto it's done. This is not a job to be taken lightly though and great care is reqiured but the result is very rewarding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher Posted October 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 I forgot to add about the crown and tube. I thought I made it clear in the first post but YES they now come with OEM sized tube and a pretty good crown. The new SD is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kotaro Posted October 20, 2007 Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 I think watchmaker9's VIP F series is certainly overpriced. It is a same as Honpo's one, but honpo price is 252.74 (USD). I went to the watchmaker9 website and I see TWO subs for sale. One is the Z series while the other is an F series. The F series costs considerably more. What is the difference??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted October 20, 2007 Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 I think watchmaker9's VIP F series is certainly overpriced. It is a same as Honpo's one, but honpo price is 252.74 (USD). That's not the same watch. Actually, it looks like Noobmariner to me. Among other things see the different S and S on Submariner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bklm1234 Posted October 20, 2007 Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 I have done nothing to the lugs so I guess it is the photo angle and as for the cyclops, I have crued but effective method with a large mallet!!.....................no only joking. I heat the crystal up using tongs to hold the crystal over my gas hob flame until it softens the glue and then it should just pop off after about 20-30 seconds. Clean both items up and then re-apply using masking tape to border the area where the crystal will sit and bond it using Areldite glass epoxy. It sets in around 20 minutes. I clean off the area around the cyclops with a sharp craft knife and heh presto it's done. This is not a job to be taken lightly though and great care is reqiured but the result is very rewarding. You popped the crystal off the case first right? I take off the cyclop by putting the popped off crystal on the heating element of an electric range with the cyclop touching the element. Just 10-20 secs, I can push off the cyclop from the crystal. I haven't tried that glueing part yet. I got the UV cement instead. -bk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher Posted October 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 No I left it on the watch Should I not have done that!! No I removed it from the watch first. Areldite's glass bond is very good and dries perfectly clear with no signs of glue at all. I tried removing one I had done on another watch and it took much longer to remove than the rep factory bonding. I am very tempted to go another step and buy a gen crystal on Ebay and there is also a gen complete bezel assembly currently for sale with insert included. A pricy option I guess but tempting!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted October 20, 2007 Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 I would like to thank Watcher for going forward in buying that watch and review it for us. I also would like to thank all our usual experts for adding their comments. It's a very insterresting thread for our community for sure. It shows how much we love the Sub but also that the best sub will probably never exist right out of the box I'm sure that most of us, after buying so many different versions, modding them with gen parts, could have afford to buy a brand new genuine one from an AD. But, that is the fun in this hobby: we will never get bored and still have hope for a next "best" rep version as opposed to simply buying a genuine downtown Cheers Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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