Rolex Sea-Dweller 16600 from year 2000 (Genuine)

[Stephane]

Rolex Sea Dweller 16600

 

 

 

Dear All,

 

I thought I might post photos of a genuine SeaDweller 4000 for reference purposes.

 

We recently faced the hype again with a Super rep, the Super Sea Dweller.

Why not have a look at a SSSD?

 

Preambule

 

Please don't misunderstand this thread.

I'm not saying reps are bad, they are not.

I will continue to buy reps and have them modified. I still love our hobby.

But since it's been 25 years I'm looking at Rolex without buying one I decided to give the real deal a go.

I sold all my Swatch and hope 3 genuine Rolies will land on my wrist at the end.

 

The first one that arrived is the SeaDweller 4000.

 

Watch ID

 

This is a P serial from the year 2000/2001.

It was originally purchased in Amsterdam on December 12th 2000.

I am the second owner and got it from SubGmt.com

It came with the box, the papers, the toolkit.

It's the lug holled case and lumi dial.

 

 

 

The dial

 

The first difference I noticed with our reps is that the gen dial is very shiny as opposed to the mate one on our reps.

 

 

Another difference is the quality of printing and the bigger height of the hour markers.

 

 

 

The hands

 

I didn't really see a huge difference in the hands size but what is obvious is the lume is much more crispy

 

 

 

The date & Date Window

 

Here too, the printing is much better of course, but believe me, sometime the date is off center vertically!

 

 

The date window edges are also smoother and reflect the natural light nicely.

 

 

The bezel, insert & pearl

 

No big surprise with the insert & pearl: we have genuine on our reps too isn't it.

The bezel rotates perfectly: it's firm but still easy to handle with two fingers.

 

 

The bezel feels very consistant on the gen; teeth are sharper and it seems to me that it's 1 or 2 mm wider.

(I didn't measure it, I have no tools for that, might be an impression only).

 

 

 

The crown and crown guard

 

Here again, we have the experience of genuine crowns/tubes and beautifully shaved guards.

 

 

Some more shots for you to check the untouched crown guards.

 

 

 

Look how the date is misaligned! (RepAustria is right when saying it happens)

 

 

 

The caseback

 

 

This is really very different: higher teeth, very easy to unscrew and screw back!

I used my usual Bergeon hand tool and didn't scrath the case back at all.

 

 

And the inside.

 

 

 

The Crystal, the rehaut, the rehaut tickness

 

The crystal sits clearly higher above the bezel than on our reps.

 

 

I hope that on the next photos, the rehaut and tickness are clearly visible.

 

 

 

 

The HEV

 

 

I'm not a diver and thus don't really bother on how this works.

But, having hold reps of the 16600, I can tell you the HEV are completely off.

 

First the colour is NOT grey on a genuine:

 

 

Second, on the following pictures, you can see that the HEV is a fraction of mm deeper in the case

 

 

 

 

The bracelet

 

With the dial, this is probably the biggest difference between this genuine SeaDweller and our reps.

The genuine bracelet is smooth, very well finished and gives a solid feeling even with the hollow mid links.

 

 

The end links.

 

 

 

The clasp.

 

 

Look at the pin to size the bracelet into the clasp.

There is a cavity to receive the sizing tool which avoids scratches on the side of the clasp.

 

 

The reference of the bracelet is printed here too.

 

 

The flip top.

Very secured. This one will never pop by accident.

 

 

The diver's extension.

I must say that it is not easy to deploy. Even very hard in fact.

I should put some WD40.

 

 

 

The lume

 

This is not a Tritium version, but a newer one.

It glows during the entire night and doesn't even need to be charged at all.

 

 

This picture has been taken in full auto mode (as you can check the second hand doesn't move).

It was resized in Photoshop and I used the AutoColor and AutoContrast only.

 

 

The movement

 

 

It's a modern Rolex in house one: the 3135.

It has never been serviced but still runs at +2 seconds a day.

It's a little dirty of course.

Pitty that Ziggy is in North America.

I will have to go to an AD.

Oh, and don't think that because I opened the case it's not waterproof anymore: it still is!

It screwed back perfectly!

 

 

 

Conclusion

 

As I started to do a while ago, I am now concentrating on vintage reps that I will never find and will never be able to afford anyway.

 

But for modern Rolex, I seriously think that putting 1K in a super modded one is not worth when a second hand gen can be found at 2.5K.

 

Our modern Rolex reps, including high end ones like MBK, and heavily modded ones will always be missing the following:

- The crystal

- The dial

- The bracelet

The quality of these parts on a genuine Rolex is absolutely different and much better.

Adding them into a rep would make it so expensive that it is a total non sense.

 

I hope you had a good time!

 

Thanks for looking and reading.

 

 

Cheers

 

Stephane

 

Visit my other Rolex: 16570 !

 

Rolex Explorer II 16570 - Review and pictorial of a genuine

 

 

[HauteHippie]

Very nice writeup. Thanks for taking the time to do it. And congrats on finally acquiring your dream watch... I just knew some of your SD photos in previous posts were too good to be a SSD. Make sure you regrease that case back O-ring when you reinstall the case back.

[alt.watch.obsessive]

Very nice review. Thanks.

Where are you getting a SD like that for $2500?

[Jetsons]

Beautiful 16600, Stephane. It is one hell of a watch and IMO, a bargain compared to the cost of the vintage, or any rlx sport vintage for that matter.

The detail of the gen is something else. The brilliance of the 18K WG surrounds and hands isn't possible to replicate in a $300 watch. The 904L steel is also considerably whiter than whatever is used on the reps. Of course, as with most upper tier gen dials, the print quality is top notch.

The frontal rehaut depth of the rep is thrown off as it uses a thinner inner ring versus the gen. The crystal may also have something to do with the effect but it is hard to be certain w/o correcting the first issue. This aspect is darn good on the old TW/MBW cases but, that was then.

BTW, the photos are fantastic, as usual. :thumbsup:

Thanks for the photo tour of a remarkable watch.

[Stephane]

A quick "thanks" to the first reactions to my thread.

I have to run away now but I wanted to say I appreciate very much !

[FxrAndy]

Congratulations, and thanks for the photos.

[dluddy]

Beautifully done Stephane. Congrats on acquiring the real thing. There is no substitute.

[fotoman]

very nice writeup my friend - invaluable contribution

[bruce79]

One of the best gen reference threads out there...well done Stephane.

[rosnik]

Thank you Steph,

It's interesting and helpful review.

[yaron]

Great review and pics. Sure will help people in making decisions (Probably convinced me to skip the "super" SD rep).

[POTR]

Lovely Stephane. Thank you for taking the time to properly photograph and document this wonderful watch.

... I am now concentrating on vintage reps that I will never find ...

Now you sound like me... except, only my insurance broker gets pics of the really expensive ones.

[elprimerozen]

Great post Stephane!!

[freddy333]

Great post & congratulations on acquiring 1 of your 3 dream watches. My guess is that you will find similar differences in fit & finish between every rep & gen you compare. This is why it makes more sense to go franken or gen (instead of modding a rep) above $500-$600.

[brook0]

Great review!

I think you have this rep game well thought out.

Tough decision to go much over $300.00 for a rep.

Re-sale value alone. If all the forums were to banned from the web, where would one sell an expensive rep?

[mezzanine]

Good review, Stephane.

I'm not terribly into the modern rollies, but I've got some questions that might extend to the vintages. You said that the bracelet felt smoother and much better than the rep one. Could you elaborate a little bit? I might spring for a gen bracelet for my 1680 if it really makes a significant difference- as I'm going to replace the bracelet on it anyways. I'd been told that the gen bracelets weren't the best value, in terms of their appearance and presentation vs. their rep counterparts.

I'm not surprised to hear about the dial observation. I have observed that the dials are a weakness of the MBK rollies. I think the moderns are a little better...but on the whole they fail to capture the feel of the genuine watch, IMO.

The rep-to-gen price ratio is a factor for me. The SFSO is really well done, but for me, a $1500 watch isn't worth getting a rep of....

Freddy, I was surprised to see you say that any watch over 500 bucks should probably be gen, considering your collection of vintage daytonas. I'm not sure if that applies to the MBK rollies, too. I would say a fully modded MBK 1680 or 1665 looks really close to the original.

Someone mentioned how price of reps won't likely hold their value. That's mostly true, except in the case of the above, where I could dismantle both watches and sell the gen parts in a rapidly appreciating rolex parts market. People have warned me that I couldn't re-sell my dials, as they've both been shaved down. I'm not so sure, as I saw one sold relatively recently- although it was discounted.

[freddy333]

Freddy, I was surprised to see you say that any watch over 500 bucks should probably be gen, considering your collection of vintage daytonas. I'm not sure if that applies to the MBK rollies, too. I would say a fully modded MBK 1680 or 1665 looks really close to the original.

Alot of this comes down to your knowledge level and what you consider 'close'. Every rep dial has at least 1 telling mistake on it and since the dial is the most important part of any watch (and the first thing anyone checks out), a rep dial on a well modded case can undo all your hard work. On the other hand, a gen dial in a mediocre (but passable) case will still fly.

And what I meant was that if you are going to spend more than about $500 on a modded rep, I think you would do better by putting the money towards a used gen or a franken (where at least the case, dial & crown/tube are gen). As good as a DW Daytona is, the dials on these things are still dead give-aways for anyone who knows these watches. But the cost of a vintage gen Daytona is prohibitively out of reach, so a good franken is the only realistic option for us non-gazillionaires. But that is not the case for many Subs, Seadwellers, datejusts & those types of models, especially the modern ones.

But to spend $600, $800 or $1000+ to mod a rep Datejust or Sub when you can buy a great used piece for not that much more seems, to me, to begin to strain reason. Especially, when you consider that no matter how passable your $800 modded rep looks, it will never have the fit and finish of the gen, nor will it have any real (or insurable) resale value.

I do not mean to sound like I am knocking reps. I am definitely not. I have a number of them myself and expect to have more in the future. But I just got to the point in my modding where the total cost of parts (I do my own work) was beginning to come close enough to the cost of similar used gen watches, and no matter how much modding I do or how well I do it, the quality of the gen will always be out of reach.

[mezzanine]

Alot of this comes down to your knowledge level and what you consider 'close'. Every rep dial has at least 1 telling mistake on it and since the dial is the most important part of any watch (and the first thing anyone checks out), a rep dial on a well modded case can undo all your hard work. On the other hand, a gen dial in a mediocre (but passable) case will still fly.

And what I meant was that if you are going to spend more than about $500 on a modded rep, I think you would do better by putting the money towards a used gen or a franken (where at least the case, dial & crown/tube are gen). As good as a DW Daytona is, the dials on these things are still dead give-aways for anyone who knows these watches. But the cost of a vintage gen Daytona is prohibitively out of reach, so a good franken is the only realistic option for us non-gazillionaires. But that is not the case for many Subs, Seadwellers, datejusts & those types of models, especially the modern ones.

But to spend $600, $800 or $1000+ to mod a rep Datejust or Sub when you can buy a great used piece for not that much more seems, to me, to begin to strain reason. Especially, when you consider that no matter how passable your $800 modded rep looks, it will never have the fit and finish of the gen, nor will it have any real (or insurable) resale value.

I do not mean to sound like I am knocking reps. I am definitely not. I have a number of them myself and expect to have more in the future. But I just got to the point in my modding where the total cost of parts (I do my own work) was beginning to come close enough to the cost of similar used gen watches, and no matter how much modding I do or how well I do it, the quality of the gen will always be out of reach.

I agree with you about the significance of the dial- no doubt about it. When I got the chance to compare a really good re-dial to my MBK dials, I was very disappointed. I was surprised at how much difference there was...and not just in terms of fonts being correct, etc... but in the overall quality of the gen and very good re-dials.

Yeah, with the moderns (especially) you have to be sensitive to the value of going for heavy mods. The SSD is an example...

For me, I had to think hard about the prospect of going with a couple of fully modded vintage pieces because of the possibility of getting a gen instead. The reality is that I could get a mid-range gen, maybe a used SFSO, a used Sinn or possibly PO even. There's something to be said for the appearance of the gens...but ultimately, I'd rather have a couple of reps with most of their value tied up in gen parts, that, while it would suck to have to do it, could be re-sold at some point.

That's one of the things I realized about having a significant amount of money tied up in reps, about six months ago. I had let my collecting get a little crazy, and had too many pieces. Also, you're 100% correct that for the vast majority of reps there is a diminishing value to the watches we own over time, due to their nature, and the nature of the rep industry, always cranking out new and better reps like new and better Ipods, etc...

That's why I decided that if I was going to collect for the longer-term, it'd be nice to have as much of my $$ in pieces that would be unlikely to decrease in value over time.

Enter the HBB with 'genuine' ceramic bezel (the bezel is worth the new cost of the watch- doesn't take an arbitrage wiz to figure this one out), and the vintage MBK rollies.

One of the nice things about them is that they really do get close to the fit and finish of the genuine article- and as I look down at my 1680 right now, almost everything significant to the appearance of the watch is genuine- vintage NOS at that!

The point being that the parts alone are worth more than I'd likely be able to get here for the watch, itself...due to the lack of educated buyers who are aware of the cost of these parts, and the relatively limited market size. That's a nice benefit, considering the decline in the value of most reps over time.

If you've got $5000 in reps, and there are probably more than a few folks that do, and you're going to hold onto them indefinitely, with many not seeing the outside of the watch box, you might be losing 25% of the value of the money you have tied up in that large collection per year in re-sale value. That's no joke.

I just crunched some numbers, and I discovered that I've got 70% of the co$t of my 5 watch collection in watches/parts that are likely to increase in value over time. This way I can enjoy the hobby with some pieces I want to keep for the long-term, and that are more like 'watches' to me than reps.

At the same time, as a young person without unlimited money to spend on replica watches, this way I can enjoy watches that I have no business wearing without having to worry about them depreciating at a high rate- considering the $$ invested.

Anyways keeping with my other tangent, one of the areas I think the 1680/1665's might be a little weak is with their bezels...or more specifically, their bezel teeth. I'll have to take a closer look at some reviews before I make any claims, though. The teeth seem sharper on the gens. I've come pretty close to picking up a gen bezel a couple of times- but want to forgo any unnecessary mods. I'm not about modding a part for the sake of being able to call it gen, there has to be a rationale. The bezel insert is the most underrated and significant mod that can be done, IMO...but the bezel itself leaves me wondering...

[mrandazzo]

Stephane! Your SD isn't gen! It doesn''t display "POLEX" between the lugs!!!

BTW, very nice review! Thanks! :good:

I agree with you. The SSD takes with itself too much hype. Until now, it has been a month on my wrist.

I have to say that it is very good.

Does it feels like a gen? No.

Will it ever feel like a gen? I don't think so.

Too many things are wrong. Some can be modified, some aren't fixable

BTW its a very good rep, even out of the box!

Modding its like chasing perfection, but you know you'll never gonna catch it.

Its a challenge. So, I'll mod my SSD fixing what's fixable

I have to say that your gen caseback its so....nice

Looks like as the SD that ttk has got in his album.

Maybe they're swappable...

[Golfman]

Thanks Stephane for this wonderfull review and for thoses beautifull pics.

At the begining i am not an Rolies fan, but day after day, week after week, i enjoy more and more ...

I am not at the point to buy a gen, but encourage me to find a friend to my Sub

Thanks again for that

[Stephane]

@ ALL: thanks so much for your nice comments.

It takes time to post such a thread but I sincerely hope it helps all of us to see close up of a gen.

At least it shows that super reps are very rare if not a wishfull thinking.

I would love to see all genuine owners post reference pics of their piece.

I think it's the only way we can improve our common knowledge and make the right decisions.

@ RepAustria: If you learned something about Rolies in this thread, then I guess I'll need another life to be close to your knowledge!

Yes the number inside the case back is a surprise !!!

Na, I won't remove the sticker. It's another lesson here. Genuine stickers are so thick compared to our reps !!!

Remove your rep stickers right away guys. It's the first obvious flaw

Thanks for being so helpful in 2007; most of my knowledge about Rolies comes from you my friend.

That is how I decide to go genuine for my modern Rolex.

@ Freddy: yes, I agree with you completely now.

It took me a year and lots of $$$, but I know I won't ever try to get the best sub anymore

I know what you mean in saying you're not knocking reps down.

But genuine modern Rolies aren't an impossible dream.

They are really affordable and have lugholes!!!

@ Mezzanine: it make sense to create vintage reps.

In example a 1K single red, double red or great white like mines are close to the real deal.

I would never have the balls to put 20 or 30K in a watch even if I had the cash.

A single red is not even foundable anyway.

The bracelet: I'm afraid that my English is too poor to describe what I feel.

Let's say:

- removing a screw is easy like cutting butter in summer (I tried all of them, none stripped)

- sizing the pin in the clasp with the tool is so secured: you do not scratch the clasp by accident as the tool of the SD fits the cavity ot the pin in the clasp very firmly.

- the edges of the links are nicely rounded and so smooth

- putting back the end link between the lugs: I do it with my nail. No tool is needed. You hear the click right away, no need to shake the thing between the lugs and hope it will click. It's straight.

- The colour and shine of the metal is completely different too.

- The clasp is easy to handle and doesn't make that cheap noise like our reps.

- The only point is that my diver extension is hard. But I guess the previous owner never used it. It's 7 years old so

[mrandazzo]

By the way guys, By-Tor was the first one to shout the SSD is not super. No one listened to him.

I guess we all want to believe fairy tales

That man has unbelievable trained eyes !!!

[Tribal]

Great review Stephane

You have bought a damm nice SD, i love the lugholes...

With some Mods the SSD will come near to the Genuine thing,expect the bracelet its poor quality of steel and finish...

The Endlinks on a gen SD bracelet is splid and not three piece construction,this is only by a gen Sub...

But hey a rep is a rep and can't beat the real thing...

Thanks Stephane and have a nice happy new year my friend

[brook0]

A $100.00 Newbmarina will fool 99% of the folks looking at your watch. (Including quite a few of us)

A $1000.00 modded sub will not fool the remaining 1%!!!!

Invest carefully.

[mezzanine]

A $100.00 Newbmarina will fool 99% of the folks looking at your watch. (Including quite a few of us)

A $1000.00 modded sub will not fool the remaining 1%!!!!

Invest carefully.

For me, most moderns I would give a quick wrist glance to, but determining their authenticity isn't that easy.

If you're talking about a 1000 dollar modded vintage, I'd argue that one of those is much more convincing, and also 'significant'. If someone wants a fake 16610, go for it... they all look pretty good to me. Even then, the noob has a great dial, but I wasn't impressed with the rehaut- but of course that's a detail that isn't relevant for most. I don't personally like the watch a whole bunch, and even when I've seen gens in person, it isn't like "wow, that's a gen modern sub".

If I saw someone wearing a vintage red sub, my reaction would be different, and I would be able to spot it for a rep vs. authentic pretty quick, if it had a rep dial. Genuine inserts are hugely underrated in adding to the gen look of the watch, as well as a gen crown. I truly believe once The Zigmeister gets through my CG's and datewheel, my 1680 would require you to have to crack the caseback to tell it wasn't gen.

The vintages just seem about 100X more distinctive and with more character. Not putting down the moderns, I just like the fact that you can't really fake the vintages well without dropping some cash- it's kind of an insulator against too much saturation.

I can spot gen parts, at least vintage ones, pretty quick.

One other point- the thing that seems to get lost with some of the expensive rep talk is that a lot of these watches that are modded with gen parts hold their value much better than other reps. That makes them less silly, and the gen parts are exactly what makes a watch look gen. If all the visibly significant parts are gen, then it appears gen. It sounds like stating a fact, but somehow it gets lost....