Bespoke Suits vs Off-the-shelf

[The Mentalist]

"Old fashioned mustiness"??? Massive stereotype. Not in the last 5 years, evolve or die. Kilgour is the perfect example of that.

p.s. It's Savile Row, not Saville.

My showroom is right next to Kilgour and I often share an office with Kilgour's Creative director Carlo Brandelli as their office is part of the same building. I have discussed this very thing with Carlo and like it or not the Row is changing and moving more into mainstream fashion with the off-the-rack, instant gratification attitude it brings. Take a look at Richard James and Boateng and compare their sensibilities with the likes of Henry Poole and Anderson & Shepherd. Even Gieves has repositioned itself as a fashion brand. The latter ooze a prestige and quality that the former lack - primarily because the former are geared towards selling ready to wear suits. You can still get bespoke from them, but prepare to pay silly money and the suits will all come from the same source - a hardcore cadre of independent contractors who do piece work for the big Row houses.

Fortunately, the artisanal tailor can and does survive but does so more as a bespoke couturier than as a tailor. I myself have operated in this way ever since I started out on my own 5 years ago and my suits are, in the most matter of fact way I can describe, amongst the best you can buy anywhere and I would certainly have no qualms about comparing them to the likes of Kiton, Oxxford, Huntsman or Poole.

Proper bespoke comes at a price, but you get with it something indefinable: a unique piece that is inherently part of 'you'.

To keep this on topic, Ken's suits are ok. Nothing spectacular. just your run of the mill, factory made 'designer' tat made using generic cloth and cut and sewn in a generic fashion. If you are paying more than a bog standard department store suit just to get the name, then I despair.

[doc savage]

Proper bespoke comes at a price, but you get with it something indefinable: a unique piece that is inherently part of 'you'.

To keep this on topic, Ken's suits are ok. Nothing spectacular. just your run of the mill, factory made 'designer' tat made using generic cloth and cut and sewn in a generic fashion. If you are paying more than a bog standard department store suit just to get the name, then I despair.

I've been toying with the idea of ordering from one of the Hong Kong or India tailors that do bespoke suits and shirts online. No real reason in this day and age that I can't get my measurements here then let someone do the cutting and sewing somewhere with cheap labor. I know that must make a proper tailor cringe, but I just can't justify spending thousands on suits anymore, not with the casual nature of my current job. It costs about the same as a rep suit, just without the label, and you can order swatches or send them your own fabric if you want.

To my knowledge, no one has ever looked at my jacket label anyway. I've known people who would take a stab at the deigner from the cut, just making conversation, or notice a particularly nice material. As far as suits go I think the fit, cut, fabric, and construction are FAR more important than label.

[KB]

Doc if it cost the same as a rep suit thats because it is a rep suit.

Let me put it another way the guys doing these online bespoke are the same quality tailors who make the reps they just simply run different angle.

Ken

[confused69u]

I've been toying with the idea of ordering from one of the Hong Kong or India tailors that do bespoke suits and shirts online. No real reason in this day and age that I can't get my measurements here then let someone do the cutting and sewing somewhere with cheap labor. I know that must make a proper tailor cringe, but I just can't justify spending thousands on suits anymore, not with the casual nature of my current job. It costs about the same as a rep suit, just without the label, and you can order swatches or send them your own fabric if you want.

To my knowledge, no one has ever looked at my jacket label anyway. I've known people who would take a stab at the deigner from the cut, just making conversation, or notice a particularly nice material. As far as suits go I think the fit, cut, fabric, and construction are FAR more important than label.

Totally agree on the last paragraph.

As for bespoke suits/shirts, i have taken that route and luckily there happens to be a travelling tailor that comes by the city as well as other cities to take measurements. The costs are the same as if you went in to your local Express/Zara store but the customization of cuffs and collars, choice of cloths and the lovely monogram make it unbelievable for the value. I'd highly recommend it, the guys at styleforums.com recommend it as well.

[The Mentalist]

Doc if it cost the same as a rep suit thats because it is a rep suit.

Let me put it another way the guys doing these online bespoke are the same quality tailors who make the reps they just simply run different angle.

Ken

That's a bit of a generalisation and not entirely true. The rep suits are, I will virtually guarantee, are machine made using fused construction with no hand finishing using a STANDARD pattern. Many of the online tailors (including a great deal of the travelling 'tailors') do the same as these 'tailors' are nothing but salesmen who are just funnelling orders to a centralised factory who make these things up in no time. How they can call it 'bespoke' is beyond me as it is a blatant misrepresentation. A true bespoke suit is fully canvassed and pad stitched, cut from pattern made just for that client with hand finished linings, buttonholes and prickstitching. It takes on average 40-50 man hours and needs at least one fitting.

Many of the Hong Kong travelling tailors are atrocious and are nothing but a little step up from having an off-the-peg suit altered to fit. At best it is made-to-measure but for true bespoke, you will still need to pay. Unfortunately, 99% of the public won't know a [censored] suit if it they saw one and would not know what to ask for so these tailors give them a super good deal and then give them a suit commensurate with that price.

I happen to know one of the world's leading travelling tailors (I've know him since I was 6 years old), an Indian chap from Hong Kong. He advertises ludicrously 'starting from' prices designed to lure you in but once you're their he will upsell terribly using a mixture of humilation, embarassment and sheer vanity. Basically, if you want something good, you're up near Savile Row prices and you'll have to wait for his next return trip to get fitting which also removes his USP. His factory turns out 20,000 suits a month. Some excellent, some mediocre and some I wouldn't dress my pet munchkin in.

The smaller Thai tailors can still provide decent workmanship as can the Hong Kong tailors but you need to know what to ask for and also be prepared to pay more for it otherwise the order will go straight to a 'factory' instead of a proper workshop.

[cornerstone]

I know we're totally OT from Ken's suits here - we're talking off-the-shelf versus made-to-measure / bespoke (i.e. a genuine brand suit is off-the-shelf; many high street suits (e.g. Marks and Spencer) are fused)

My problem with made-to-measure is that's it's a moving frickin' target, so it's not going to fit in a few weeks anyway. In the past, when I've moved houses/countries I've gone through suits throwing out what doesn't fit, only to find out that two doughnuts later it might have again

I'm only half-kidding. What I really want from a new suit is fifteen pairs of trousers, just to cover a rainbow of different sizes I may or may not be at some point in the future. Seriously, there's no point wearing an impressive suit if at the end of any meeting you can only walk bandy-legged because the circulation to your feet has been cut off for the past two hours....

[The Mentalist]

I know we're totally OT from Ken's suits here - we're talking off-the-shelf versus made-to-measure / bespoke (i.e. a genuine brand suit is off-the-shelf; many high street suits (e.g. Marks and Spencer) are fused)

My problem with made-to-measure is that's it's a moving frickin' target, so it's not going to fit in a few weeks anyway. In the past, when I've moved houses/countries I've gone through suits throwing out what doesn't fit, only to find out that two doughnuts later it might have again

I'm only half-kidding. What I really want from a new suit is fifteen pairs of trousers, just to cover a rainbow of different sizes I may or may not be at some point in the future. Seriously, there's no point wearing an impressive suit if at the end of any meeting you can only walk bandy-legged because the circulation to your feet has been cut off for the past two hours....

Funnily enough, M&S's MtM suits are phenomenal for the price. They are made in Shanghai, fully canvassed (albeit machine pad stitched) and are tremendously well made and finished. They are as good, if not better in many respects to Brioni and are defintiely on par with current Savile Row.

Made to measure only takes into account sleeve length, waist and trouser and jacket length. The standard block pattern can only have so much done with it before it looks visibly altered.

Bespoke, on the other hand, has a lot more latitude. I put on 35lb last year and my suits still fit and do not look noticeably tight (they do feel a touch touch tight around the waist but nothing major). There is usually about 3/4 inches of extra seamage built in and also the cut is designed to flatter and deceive so any weight gain or loss is well disguised.

[rek001]

What an interesting discussion, I love this place.

[rek001]

I just wanted to add, as a woman, i've always had clothes fitting problems.

I'm 5' 10", 153 lbs. and have long arms and a low waist.

I often have to buy "tall womens" clothing, of which there is a very paltry selection in terms of color and conservative design.

The winter in Chicago was very long, cold, and snowy and I spent many hours looking for a new coat.

I gave up and wore my 4 year old shlumpy down coat, I am so sick of it, I will ceremonially burn it.

My dream is to have a bespoke cashmere coat made just for me. Unfortunately, I take public transit to work every day and that coat would be just too nice.

[Victoria]

The winter in Chicago was very long, cold, and snowy and I spent many hours looking for a new coat.

I gave up and wore my 4 year old shlumpy down coat, I am so sick of it, I will ceremonially burn it.

I'm shocked. Being short (5'6"/167cm) I always thought taller women had so much more selection, as couture and its copy-slaves prefer your type.

And in Chicago too! With Marshall Fields/Macy's, in your backyard!

I think you need to move to Paris or New York, Rima. You'll NEVER struggle to find a coat which will suit, there.

[sulone88]

A tailor can to wonders to any fabric, no matter what you

[cornerstone]

Given this discussion, this article in today's Sunday Times caught my eye - I'm guessing The Mentalist may be spraying his cornflakes over his morning paper when he sees this...

[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article3524068.ece]"One man is revolutionising modern suiting with bespoke for

[cornerstone]

[FYI - I split this discussion off from Ken's trade review so it could be continued ]

[jamesg]

As the Mentalist was saying - 'bespoke' doesn't seem to mean bespoke.

I read that article with great interest this morning as only yesterday I had a fitting for a new Made to Measure suit at my local tailors in Brighton.

Unfortunately the Sunday Times journalist mixed up his terms as many people frequently do. The service that Suitsupply offer is Made to Measure i.e. take a set of measurements and send off to a factory for production. This is entirely different to bespoke which is an extremely labour intensive, personalised service which The Mentalist has already described perfectly.

However if The Mentalist has any comments on this Suitsupply company I'd love to hear them as their prices seem good and they claim to use Italian factories rather than mills in Hong Kong.

[peepshow]

I traded a couple of PMs with the Mentalist yesterday. I can honestly say that he helped to open my eyes. If I wore suits more often, I'd pop down to the Row and see him, but I can't justify the cost with how seldom I wear suits.

I may very well go see him for some bespoke shirts, though, as I wear button-down shirts nearly every workday. I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem to have him ship them back to the States for me after I leave on Friday. I mean it's pretty easy to spend $75-80 for off the rack dress shirts, why not add another $25 or so to get something made for YOUR BODY specifically with all it's quirks?

Thanks to cornerstone for splitting this off, as I'd like to see this discussion continue!

Edited March 16, 2008 by peepshow

[musicale]

This is really interesting. I've only owned one made-to-measure suit, and I lost 20lbs within a year and it now looks completely wrong on me and I never wear it. Since then I buy off-the-rack, my most recent suit was GBP30 (100% wool, decent, nothing special) from Moss Bros and only needed some minor alteration to the trousers to fit. I'd love to own a completely bespoke suit but I simply can't afford to spend that kind of money only to have it not fit right within a year. I'd rather be able to buy a new suit every year that fits perfectly even it it's not quite as nice.

[peepshow]

...Bespoke, on the other hand, has a lot more latitude. I put on 35lb last year and my suits still fit and do not look noticeably tight (they do feel a touch touch tight around the waist but nothing major). There is usually about 3/4 inches of extra seamage built in and also the cut is designed to flatter and deceive so any weight gain or loss is well disguised.

I think The Mentalist addressed your concerns above, musicale. I have no idea if it's true, as I've never owned a bespoke suit, either. I see no reason for The Mentalist to mislead anyone, however.

[jamesg]

Musicale - I guess it depends on where you get your MTM suit made - my tailor offers free alterations for the lifetime of the suit.

I had a couple of MTM suits made last year and since then I've lost quite a bit of weight - at yesterdays fitting I had lost an inch on the chest, 4" on my gut(!) and 2" on my waist. The tailor said he'll struggle to adjust the suit down to my new shape perfectly but should still be able to make it fit better. At

[FxrAndy]

I wouldn't dress my pet munchkin in.

You have Pet munchkin??????

I know your real name!!!!

Your Charley and you own a chocolate factory!

[TeeJay]

I just wanted to add, as a woman, i've always had clothes fitting problems.

I'm 5' 10", 153 lbs. and have long arms and a low waist.

I often have to buy "tall womens" clothing, of which there is a very paltry selection in terms of color and conservative design.

The winter in Chicago was very long, cold, and snowy and I spent many hours looking for a new coat.

I gave up and wore my 4 year old shlumpy down coat, I am so sick of it, I will ceremonially burn it.

My dream is to have a bespoke cashmere coat made just for me. Unfortunately, I take public transit to work every day and that coat would be just too nice.

I'm shocked. Being short (5'6"/167cm) I always thought taller women had so much more selection, as couture and its copy-slaves prefer your type.

And in Chicago too! With Marshall Fields/Macy's, in your backyard!

I think you need to move to Paris or New York, Rima. You'll NEVER struggle to find a coat which will suit, there.

I'd say the issue is one of proportions rather than height. My wife is about 5'6", but, her legs are about 4" too short (proportionately) to her body. She is also 'long in the body', so has a real issue getting tops which are long enough, without being oversized in the bust/arms. Of couse, if her legs were 4" longer, she'd be 5'10", and probably wouldn't look as long in the body, although she'd still have the issue of finding tops that fit Given that I'm about 6'2", I have a feeling our children will be on the tall side

On the topic of bespoke garments....

I've never had a suit tailored, but, did have a leather jacket custom made for me

It's a replica of this jacket:

[rek001]

Yep, my problem is that I have very long arms and a low waist, sleeves are always too short, when I bend my arms they pull up and are taut, drives me nuts.

I try a fitted coat on at Macy's, the waistline is too high and looks bad.

Thing that kills me is that there is a lot more petite off the rack available than tall.

[musicale]

My problem is that I have big upper arms and a big ass. Even getting shirts that I can button up and fit me well is tricky.

[The Mentalist]

I just found this thread.

Suit Supply is a very gimmick laden concept that relies purely on the ignorance of quality tailoring. They are an off-the-rack and Made-to-measure operation that relies on quick turnover. All their suits are fused with ZERO hand finishing. Don't expect working cuff buttons, hand felled linings, real horn buttons and full canvassing. This is 'tailoring' for the iPod generation who want instant gratification. This is not bespoke, this isn't even MTM. This is pre-conceived designs from a defined 'collection' that are just altered to fit the client. It's like choosing a new sofa and being asked the material and colour you want it. It is choice, but choice within a certain set of parameters defined by the seller. Hardly bespoke and hardly 'custom-made'.

I trained under the legendary jewish tailor Albert Broider (a contemporary of the equally legendary tailor Scholte) and he was the one who pointed out how good the M&S MtM suits actually were. I had a look and I was impressed. Personally, I would take an M&S suit over SuitSupply any day of the week.

[peepshow]

Mentalist, the next time I'm in the UK (which given the current work environment at my employer could be anytime), I'm definitely coming into your store for some shirts. As I said in my PM, I don't wear suits often enough to justify the investment in a couple of suits, but I'm all over some bespoke shirts. Pants, too, if you do pants separately from jackets.

[Guest alcordia]

I would prefer Bespoke suits rather than choosing off-the-shelf because those are ONLY for us not for everyone. They are in exact fit. 

 

I'm sure they are, please do not bump 5 year old threads to promote your site.......Ken