JohnG Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 I have a SSD that I purchased from Ruby. If the article and pictures posted by EuroTimez are correct then the watch has a fake ETA 2836-2. The only other person that I know of personally who has checked HIS SSD in the wake of that thread also found the tells of the "Fake" ETA. I use quotations because I am not sure we can say it is now a proven fact that these movements are fake. But I would like to find out for sure because if this is the case I intend to get either my money back or a SSD with a genuine movement. I am unsure how to go about this - all I have at the moment is a post by another dealer. Most seem content to accept those assertions as fact without even the slightest inquiry. But I imagine those of us who detect these movements will need more than just one thread to cite when we demand a solution. How have others handled getting their watches replaced or money refunded? Have you experienced resistance? Another poster in another thread is now saying that Josh is going to change his watch for him. How are others faring? Any suggestions on how to handle this situation would be appreciated. What I really would rather NOT hear are cracks about how this is an "illegal trade," to "just get over it," or that "it is all part of the game." I paid a premium price for a genuine Swiss ETA movement. I intend to find out once and for all if that is what I have and, if not, to have the situation addressed by my dealer. Any serious and considered replies would be really welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightstroker Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 I have a SSD that I purchased from Ruby. If the article and pictures posted by EuroTimez are correct then the watch has a fake ETA 2836-2. The only other person that I know of personally who has checked HIS SSD in the wake of that thread also found the tells of the "Fake" ETA. I use quotations because I am not sure we can say it is now a proven fact that these movements are fake. But I would like to find out for sure because if this is the case I intend to get either my money back or a SSD with a genuine movement. I am unsure how to go about this - all I have at the moment is a post by another dealer. Most seem content to accept those assertions as fact without even the slightest inquiry. But I imagine those of us who detect these movements will need more than just one thread to cite when we demand a solution. How have others handled getting their watches replaced or money refunded? Have you experienced resistance? Another poster in another thread is now saying that Josh is going to change his watch for him. How are others faring? Any suggestions on how to handle this situation would be appreciated. What I really would rather NOT hear are cracks about how this is an "illegal trade," to "just get over it," or that "it is all part of the game." I paid a premium price for a genuine Swiss ETA movement. I intend to find out once and for all if that is what I have and, if not, to have the situation addressed by my dealer. Any serious and considered replies would be really welcome. I bought a DD from Ruby advertising Swiss ETA 2836-2....this is what she sent me.... Notice the funky balance adjustment arm....no screw.... I didnt bother contacting her for a return because I am fairly happy with the watch....at $208 I over paid a little bit....but not much....I didnt want to deal with sending it back and so on and so forth.... All you need to do is contact her regarding the issue....send her some pics via image cave and wait for a response....Im pretty sure she will take care of it for you.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlilley01 Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 John, I assume I am the other one you know of? I too would like to have it properly clarified if it is indeed a copy, but dont know how to go about it. I have considered emailing Andrew and letting him know that the SDD seems to not have a genuine Swiss ETA, but I dont feel confident doing this on the say so of another dealer on a forum. I also would like to trust Andrew, but I am holding off putting in another order until I see how the replies go to threads across the boards about ETA copies. It is also possible, if unlikely, that a batch of SDD have been passed off as Swiss by the manufacturer and therefore sold on as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 The term "swiss' has been loosley tossed around by many dealers, and this has always been somewhat mysterious, because my understanding is that all the rep watches we purchase are replica movements made in China. Some of these Chinese watch movements are decent copies of their swiss made counterparts, but the factories in China importing movements from Switzerland seems a bit of a stretch. It seems this issue has been more clearly defined by our more well versed "experts", and their opinion wouldbe worthwhile to hear again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POTR Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Hey JohnG... I've been looking at watch movements for 30 years... any opinion I would give would be based on that experience... feel free to ignore anything I say... since you have already followed that above advice... look for yourself... ETA has images of it's movements in all levels of finish in it's catalog online. Every one that comes from ETA. If your movement has parts that don't look exactly like the images in the catalog (smaller parts and 'gears', not the larger plates) then, feel free to make your own damn inquiry of yourself. Anyone else... Well, these copies are damn close, probably done on closed ETA factory equipment, but the detail, fit and finish is obviously (if you have eyes) not identical. That said, the new generation copies are probably fine from a reliability standpoint, might accept gen parts up to the point where the lesser finished rep wheels' tooth angles might be off enough to cause issue on occasion, each movement is going to be it's own little unique adventure on that part and simply impossible to hazard a reliable guess... Damn "Swiss" movements have been mostly Asian for ages now anyway... they just aren't looking over Chinese shoulders as much ensuring the "standard" since ETA packed up and moved out... damn sure wasn't to save money... guarantee it was a last ditch effort to save brand significance in light of people figuring out where the stuff was actually being made... So.. quality? Almost but not quite. And there we can leave it up to the your own individual sensibilities to determine how much you want to invest in the crap shoot. I think that the vast majority of are dealers here are great people, but I also understand that their marketing has to be tailored for the world at large and be able to compete with all the other lies being told out there by the dealers that aren't here... What ever happened to the newbie cheat sheet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 The term "swiss' has been loosley tossed around by many dealers, and this has always been somewhat mysterious, because my understanding is that all the rep watches we purchase are replica movements made in China. Some of these Chinese watch movements are decent copies of their swiss made counterparts, but the factories in China importing movements from Switzerland seems a bit of a stretch. It seems this issue has been more clearly defined by our more well versed "experts", and their opinion wouldbe worthwhile to hear again. ETA sell movements to anyone. Apparently, in the far east, they're under $100 available in any quantity you want. However, the replicas are significantly cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Carl Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Being a retired pensioner from a well known Swiss company (don't ask) I can state: I have seen items from Germany, Singapore, and yes, China sold under the original Swiss brand. There are probably no more genuine Swiss ETA movements available to you in a rep. Just my own opinion, as my latest rep acquisition contained a movement stamped "2832-2" and it is not an ETA by any stretch of the imagination. But it is clean, elegant, and keeps good time. Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 The only way to be 100% certain that you'll get a Swiss ETA is buying a movement from Ofrei or Cousins in an ETA sealed bag. The origin of non sealed 'Swiss' movements - either spare or in a rep - is completely unknown and could be anything from aftermarket Swiss to a cheap Asian copy. So I won't believe any collector who sells 'Swiss', although Eurotimez seems very promising..... On the other hand, most Asian movements are not that bad - especially after they have been serviced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted June 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Hey JohnG... I've been looking at watch movements for 30 years... any opinion I would give would be based on that experience... feel free to ignore anything I say... since you have already followed that above advice... look for yourself... ETA has images of it's movements in all levels of finish in it's catalog online. Every one that comes from ETA. If your movement has parts that don't look exactly like the images in the catalog (smaller parts and 'gears', not the larger plates) then, feel free to make your own damn inquiry of yourself. If I am going to approach my dealer about it, it is pretty clear I am tending towards accepting EuroTimez'a assertion so I am not really sure what you are on about. Nevertheless, the catalogs which I downloaded a week ago (28xx_2_decors_eta.pdf and others) show items for sale currently. I have a Citro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Some ETA-branded pieces are made from Ebauches. That means some of them will look wildly different, but still have ETA parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POTR Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 If I am going to approach my dealer about it, it is pretty clear I am tending towards accepting EuroTimez'a assertion so I am not really sure what you are on about. Nevertheless, the catalogs which I downloaded a week ago (28xx_2_decors_eta.pdf and others) show items for sale currently. I have a Citro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted June 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Multiple threads asking the same questions of the same people just screams you don't listen, and your attitude in asking those same questions of the same people again while implying that their experience doesn't meet your imagined standard for certitude, and their time that they have spent already answering those questions is no where near important as your time... Simple, if the answers aren't good enough for you the first or second time, how are they ever going to be good enough for you the next however many times you choose to rephrase the question, turning the issue into a quagmire scattered across several different threads? The Isetta isn't in the current BMW catalog, and doesn't look anything like anything else in the current BMW catalog, but it is still a BMW, and those who care to look at the details, even if they don't even know what an Isetta is, can tell the difference between the gen and the copies out there... I have only posted ONE thread relating to fake ETA's (this one). The precise question I am asking here (since you apparently didn't read my post) is, "How have others handled getting their watches replaced or money refunded?" I have not asked this question before. Period. And I have never prior to this thread had ANY conversation with you on ANY subject. You stated your 30 years experience and your opinion (all with sarcasm) and I said, "I believe you." Even THAT seems to be offensive to you. I don't thread crap. I don't flame people. I don't hijack threads. I don't post off-topic. I don't troll. I follow the forum rules. I support the forum financially. But for some reason you don't like me. I get it. I don't know why and at this point I REALLY don't care. But dude you are free like the air to ignore me. So anything else you want to say or are we done already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnkay Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 @John G, I totally get what you are saying. I feel the same way. According to Eurotime'z thread, which I appreciate tremendously, the movement for which I just paid $100 extra might not be genuine. However, I know that's not good enough to substantiate misrepresentation or even incorrect shipment from a dealer. To be sure, I took it to my watchmaker. He says it's genuine based upon a topical inspection. But he wasn't aware that there are copies out there now. He's going to overhaul the movement in a couple weeks when he gets back from vacation, and then he should be able to tell whether there are any discrepencies. One of three things will happen: he'll say it is not genuine based upon some giveaway; or, he'll say it is w/o a doubt genuine; or, he'll say that if it is a copy, it's an exact copy and there's no way he can tell. The way I look at it, I am keeping the watch one way or another, and no matter whether the movement is genuine or not, I want it cleaned and lubed. If it turns out it's a copy movement and the watchmaker is absolutely sure of that, I'll ask for the difference refunded based upon his written findings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted June 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 @John G, I totally get what you are saying. I feel the same way. According to Eurotime'z thread, which I appreciate tremendously, the movement for which I just paid $100 extra might not be genuine. However, I know that's not good enough to substantiate misrepresentation or even incorrect shipment from a dealer. To be sure, I took it to my watchmaker. He says it's genuine based upon a topical inspection. But he wasn't aware that there are copies out there now. He's going to overhaul the movement in a couple weeks when he gets back from vacation, and then he should be able to tell whether there are any discrepencies. One of three things will happen: he'll say it is not genuine based upon some giveaway; or, he'll say it is w/o a doubt genuine; or, he'll say that if it is a copy, it's an exact copy and there's no way he can tell. The way I look at it, I am keeping the watch one way or another, and no matter whether the movement is genuine or not, I want it cleaned and lubed. If it turns out it's a copy movement and the watchmaker is absolutely sure of that, I'll ask for the difference refunded based upon his written findings. Would you mind keeping us up to date on this? Perhaps post a thread later - with his findings, and if possible with pics of the areas that EuroTimez and others indicate are the tells? I myself plan on having the rotor removed on my SSD because I have the shiny big wheel but I can't see the small gears with holes well enough with the rotor in place to tell about them... It LOOKS like they don't have as many holes but I say this mainly because on my Explorer I (2824-2) I CAN see the holes and it appears that movement is genuine (there is no doubt in my mind about that one). I am going to wait until I replace my camera which I banged up and now can't take macro shots but I will post pics when I get good ones. I like your idea of asking for a partial refund if the movement is not genuine. I may do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnkay Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 I'll post the result when I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POTR Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 I have only posted ONE thread relating to fake ETA's (this one). The precise question I am asking here (since you apparently didn't read my post) is, "How have others handled getting their watches replaced or money refunded?" I have not asked this question before. Period. And I have never prior to this thread had ANY conversation with you on ANY subject. You stated your 30 years experience and your opinion (all with sarcasm) and I said, "I believe you." Even THAT seems to be offensive to you. So, that wasn't you over in In Topic: Difference between Copy ETA and Gen ETA complaining about conflicting information, and answering yourself? Must be someone else using your account? I don't thread crap. I don't flame people. I don't hijack threads. I don't post off-topic. I don't troll. I follow the forum rules. I support the forum financially. But for some reason you don't like me. I get it. I don't know why and at this point I REALLY don't care. But dude you are free like the air to ignore me. So anything else you want to say or are we done already? No, you are crapping threads, and you are 'politely' insinuating no one is sure or knows, etc... play semantics if you wish... weasle words are still weasle words... Maybe you feel it's a bit harsh of me to be upfront, instead of using insinuation? I guess you must be 'sensitive' and 'confused'... want a tissue? And maybe you're feeling just a little bit embarrased about wasting your money, and being 'incorrect' in this thread here, or I should beleive that you beleive this is the only thread in which you have done this, instead of correcting you your current li...er... mistake... OH! I see... I guess you posted this thread because you wanted to see if someone would hold your hand and talk to the "big bad dealer" FOR you then? Is THAT what this is about? Eh... whatever... see those holes in the autowind wheels of the TISSOT/ETA movement peaking out from under the rotor in that photo that was posted earlier.. you know, that one in the thread that you 'didn't post in', that is 'upgraded' and decorated different that the plain ol ETA? And isn't "in the ETA Catalog" because ETA didn't do all of the work on it? They're all still there... Was that so hard to figure out? Should you spend your money on something that isn't what you thought you paid for when you can't be bothered to read all the info that is already here, and instead make the members here re-live it with every cycle of newbies that come through the door??? I, for one, have a big enough soap opera going on around my place... I don't need it for 'entertainment value' here. And we already have enough slippery weasles running loose as well. I don't feel like anyone should have to hold your hand on that one. How's that for crapping on a crappy thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P4GTR Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Holy shit man. Summer is certainly here. Its a forum, not an archive. Stick around long enough and things are bound to be repeated, yes? Every thread I open around here lately has some sort of conflict brewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 -not implying that either of you is Darth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vric Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 The only way to be 100% certain that you'll get a Swiss ETA is buying a movement from Ofrei or Cousins in an ETA sealed bag. The origin of non sealed 'Swiss' movements - either spare or in a rep - is completely unknown and could be anything from aftermarket Swiss to a cheap Asian copy. So I won't believe any collector who sells 'Swiss', although Eurotimez seems very promising..... On the other hand, most Asian movements are not that bad - especially after they have been serviced. Even Offrei don't ship "sealed bag" ETA movement.. My last 2 was in plastic cases. (look genuine and oiled, but still) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 For what it's worth.. the Breitling Heritage with the "Asian ETA" mine has been on the auto winder since last week and it's still running from what my eye can see SPOT ON !! I set it to my blackberry and there has been no deviation from the time..6:37 on both ...for me functionality is the key to "reps" And again for what it's worth... each individual should deal with their issues with collectors or whomever they bought the timepiece from directly and needless to say .. discretely if possible ... why is it posted on the board first before anyother avenue with the collector in question is not attempted ?? If advise is what members are seeking .. I would mail the collector in question and state... "please be mindful of the fact that the "genuine ETA" may be an Asian ETA.. i was told it was a "genuine Swiss ETA.. is this what is to be expected ? please advise.. simple.... ask an ye shall recieve ... or not.. either way at least you are informing the collector of the situation .. giving the benefit of the doubt... we all have tolerances .. the question being is will you "accept" the answer or search for something that suits you better ? what that is "I dun know" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roflwaffle Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 And again for what it's worth... each individual should deal with their issues with collectors or whomever they bought the timepiece from directly and needless to say .. discretely if possible ... why is it posted on the board first before anyother avenue with the collector in question is not attempted ?? Agreed... but.. what should the correct response from the collectors be? I just think the whole situation is a bit of a PITA. On the same thread at RG, someone commented something along the lines of 'i dont open it up to check, and if i go to sell it, i also sell it as swiss, regardless of what it really is, it was sold to me as such, so i will pass it on' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Agreed... but.. what should the correct response from the collectors be? I just think the whole situation is a bit of a PITA. On the same thread at RG, someone commented something along the lines of 'i dont open it up to check, and if i go to sell it, i also sell it as swiss, regardless of what it really is, it was sold to me as such, so i will pass it on' Well,.. it depends upon IMO what "you" think or want the response will be.. as to weather it's acceptable that is a personal conclusion..between you and the seller... I myself don't look at buying a rep with the after thought of "will I get my money back if I sell it".. and if I were to get a Asian copy and it was supposed to be a Swiss ETA.. NO of course I cannot sell it as a Swiss.. full disclosure at time of sale would be automatic because if I am selling something it now becomes "my" responsibility and problem to check my bases to protect myself .... no option on that one.. so in this "hobby" there are Quite a few "pitfalls" ... there is a differnce in collecting replications as opposed to Genuines.. and they should not be confused.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POTR Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Every dealer has had a problem, just like any other business out there... Just Read The F#cking Manual for the particular dealer you're dealing with... plenty of damn posts already about how each one of them resolved or didn't resolve the various issues... And plenty more scattered all over the other forum categories where they don't belong... Who did this, who shipped sh!t, who shipped broken, who didn't ship, who's shipment got lost, who's 'shipment got lost', who screwed who... keep it where it [censored]ing belongs so the next person who is half responsible for his own actions can find them... instead of stringing [censored] out over several different threads (no matter who started them) so that the mess gets bigger... of course the people who do [censored] like this will complain that they couldn't find [censored] too... I wonder why? Hint.. got a problem with Josh... there's a category for him... got a problem with Ken... same deal... keep it there. Don't go running around in ever other category but asking how to deal with Ruby or why won't Silix talk to me... don't like how they dealt with you... keep it there too... LIKE how they dealt with you... can you guess where this goes??? Gee, was that [censored]ing hard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted June 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 What is your problem man? Whatever it is I don't think it has anything to do with repetitive or incorrectly placed posts. Even if I am guilty of everything you say I am, you are WAY out of line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Sorry, I don't read the whole thread. But I want to help... The 2836-2 exist with the sword regulator, like you have on your movement. I saw it on some Rado watches, gold plated like yours. But I have now not the time to search exactly the same movement pic. But here is one in nickel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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