Why RWI has removed Josh and Andrew as dealers

[omni]

Their business practices have been exposed on numerous occasions, yet any dissenting voices are always glossed over, ignored, or ridiculed, when instead, the Cartel should have been given it's marching orders, and re-positioned away from the 'trusted dealers' long ago...

But TJ, I've seen before when this Cartel conspiracy theory surfaced a while ago, not too many people wanted to dissent in case they couldn't get their watches, things are a changing as this discussion has more dissenters than a year ago. Just the discussion, being allowed to continue is a good thing, as the administration says "its not all black & white" and not a cut and dry issue. I don't agree with RobbieG that this will not have any impact, maybe not now but it will. If Wan King and Chu Sum Fatt are not concerned with the discussion, they should be. Your frustration is that "majority rules" much like I get frustrated in the political voting process here; well in the end, bad reviews, bad service, bad business practices, bans on other forums may have the forum(s) seeing it your way. For now, its go with the flow of the group consensus.

[TeeJay]

It's an unfortunate situation, but a situation that we all have to deal with. Whether RWG bans them or not, that's up to our Admin and Mods...what we as members can do is buy elsewhere.

Absolutely. But. All the time they are still allowed to maintain a presense as 'trusted dealers', there will be those who continue to buy from them, thinking that the forum is 'vouching for them'.

RWI had the stones to ban them. They drew the line in the sand. It is for every forum, which claims to be enjoying this inter-forum co-operation, to stand together in solidarity with RWI by imposing the same sanctions. This spirit of co-operation deserves to be more than just 'lip service', it needs to be acted upon, even in difficult or unpleasant circumstances.

That is the true test of character. That is the true test of one's friends. The ones who stand with you, or those who walk on by.

As I said before, I'm just very disappointed by the whole charade

[FxrAndy]

Tj there is a saying as you know, "First chose your seller" and that is oftern done with reviews and referals, WE have to do our part!

[jeff g]

IF...Jandrew were the ONLY dealers who were offering the best product available, THAT would be a big problem.

Fortunately for us they are NOT the only dealers we have to choose to work with. RWI made a decision based on what they felt was the best thing to do for the best interest of their members.

WE have a choice of who we want to business with.

[TeeJay]

But TJ, I've seen before when this Cartel conspiracy theory surfaced a while ago, not too many people wanted to dissent in case they couldn't get their watches, things are a changing as this discussion has more dissenters than a year ago.

Oh absolutely, I quite agree with you, and that was definitely the situation, as people were scared of losing their supply. Personally, I was never bothered as I never had the supply in the first place. I couldn't lose what I never had, and equally, can never be denied something which I simply don't want.

The Cartel is no longer a conspiracy theory though, that they were banned from RWI is proof positive of that (and of which there was already plenty of supporting evidence)

Just the discussion, being allowed to continue is a good thing, as the administration says "its not all black & white" and not a cut and dry issue.

Indeed, it is a good thing, but, unless the admins (of all forums) are prepared to act, then it is just discussion, and not likely to actually achieve anything.

To say it's not all black and white though, I really do not understand, and honestly feel the membership deserve to have explained to them.

What is not cut and dry about banning dealers who have been proven time and again as liars, manipulators, and now racketeers, from a forum which is supposed to exist to protect buyers from unscrupulous dealers?

They are, by definition, unscrupulous, so why are they still allowed to remain as forum sanctioned dealers? That is against the very ethos this community is built upon. What possible reason could the admins have for not banning them?

don't agree with RobbieG that this will not have any impact, maybe not now but it will. If Wan King and Chu Sum Fatt are not concerned with the discussion, they should be.

Absolutely so, yet, as evidence has shown, they have viewed this topic several times today, yet chosen not to comment on the matter in any way. That shows their lack of interest in this forum, or the opinions of it's membership. More fool them...

Your frustration is that "majority rules" much like I get frustrated in the political voting process here; well in the end, bad reviews, bad service, bad business practices, bans on other forums may have the forum(s) seeing it your way. For now, its go with the flow of the group consensus.

My frustration is not 'majority rules', as that is the basis of democracy. My frustration, is that there have been numerous times when the Cartel have been caught, not only with their pants down, but balls deep in their victims, yet their conduct is ignored and tollerated, as they remain 'trusted dealers'. Again, I ask why this is, when it goes against the ethos of the community. I simply cannot understand the logic behind such decisions. That is my main frustration. The situation which is under discussion now, is, in my opinion, just even more of an insult, as there has been all this talk about inter-forum co-operation, and better relations between the forums, yet, when one forum has the stones to ban the Cartel, none of the others appear willing to show the backbone to do likewise, making a mockery of the concept of 'co-operation'. A friend who talks nice about me, but won't back me up when I make a decision, is not a true friend. RWI have drawn the line to protect the community. We ought to be backing them all the way with identical sanctions and buying practices, not simply allowing a discussion to continue, but not appear to be being taking any action.

I say 'appear', as that is how I am perceiving the response from the other forums. Behind the scenes, they may indeed be in intense discussion and plan to ban the Cartel. I don't know. All I am saying, is that nothing appears to be being done to support the stance RWI have been bold enough to take, and that is what I find truly disappointing.

[TeeJay]

Tj there is a saying as you know, "First chose your seller" and that is oftern done with reviews and referals, WE have to do our part!

Precicely. Equally though, the forums need to do their part (after all, they exist to protect buyers from unscrupulous dealers) and, allowing dealers to retain 'trusted' status, despite being banned from another forum for unacceptable business practices, I'm sorry to say, I personally, do not percieve as 'neutrality', but a simple unwillingness to act in the best interests of the people who's hard earned money enables the forums to remain online. It has been stated often enough that it is supporters, contributors and donators who keep the forums afloat, personally, I do not view banning two (frequently) disgraced dealers to be such a sacrifice on behalf of that supporting membership...

I really don't mean to be argumentative, but I find this apparent lack of willingness to take action as utterly incomprehensible.

It's like I said a few pages back about the recent UK child molester who had received Royal Honours for his work with children's charities. No one considered those things to validate his behaviour, or make it 'ignorable', and he was punished for what he did. RWI have taken the action to ban the Cartel, I do not understand any reason why other forums will not follow suit, particularly given the new era of inter-forum co-operation.

[Noel Fleischer]

I am not a member of RMI nor do I know the facts enough to

come a conclusion about who did what.

I think we need to remember that this 'hobby' is illegal! I do have personal experience

with Josh and also to some degree with Andrew. Almost all of the dealings have been smooth and polite.

In fact, often much better than the service i get with 'legitmate' businesses. I would much rather do business with

Josh than an insurance company! Think about other 'black market' businesses, there is no rule of law, concern

for other dealers, etc,etc. In the drug world your competition is often just murdered.Of course i'm exaggerating abit.

We are alot more civilized than crack dealers here- I hope.

As for price fixing- it seems that the prices are more or less the same within $30-40. In fact Eurotimez likes to advertise

that they are more expensive than Andrew.

[TeeJay]

I am not a member of RMI nor do I know the facts enough to

come a conclusion about who did what.

Then with the greatest of respect, what precicely are you bringing to this discussion?

I think we need to remember that this 'hobby' is illegal!

Legality has nothing to do with it. The fact is, these forums to protect buyers from unscrupulous dealers. The Cartel are unscrupulous dealers, and there is plenty of evidence available which supports that. RWI had the stones to ban them, and, if you were to take the time to read the thread which is highlighted in the opening posts, I believe that you will find the facts speak for themselves.

In fact, often much better than the service i get with 'legitmate' businesses. I would much rather do business with

Josh than an insurance company! Think about other 'black market' businesses, there is no rule of law, concern

for other dealers, etc,etc. In the drug world your competition is often just murdered.Of course i'm exaggerating abit.

We are alot more civilized than crack dealers here- I hope.

Trying to strong arm other dealers into price matching is not civilized. Andrew and Joshua both have history of lying to, and attempting to manipulate, both potential and existing clients alike. Your deals might have been good. Frankly, I couldn't care less. This is not about your deals with Joshua. It is not about any of our deals with Joshua. It is about the Cartel stepping over the line. Again. And only one forum having the balls to stand up to them.

In fact Eurotimez likes to advertise

that they are more expensive than Andrew.

That would be because Eurotimez actually performs extensive quality control checks on his watches... Something the Cartel do not. They say they will do it, take the money for it, but ship an unchecked watch. Again, the evidence to support this is available. Eurotimes does check his watches, so is well within his rights as a merchant, to charge extra for a service which he actually provides.

[Daytona4me]

Wither a hobby is illegal or not should never have any bearing on a discussion such as this.

Blowjobs are illegal when paid for (in my country) so I choose wisely.. but knocking off the blond down the street because she was giving them for $20 less makes me think twice about who's lips will be on my organ... I dont want to be bit (wither it is by teeth or price).

As for RWG,, pressure for them to remove Josh and Andrew.. I have not been told by any RWI admin that they are pressuring admins of RWG to do follow suit.

These are not situations that anyone likes.. not fun at all.. I implore all of you... do not pressure RWG admin to remove or ban or anything like that. This would only add to the pressure that they already have with having a thread like this going. If they are even considering it, it is something that will likely be debated amongst the powers to be for a while. I've had to deal with these issues and they are not fun.. certainly do your best to not complicate it for them. The reason I say this is that is causes divisions that are completely unnecessary and upsets the overall membership... discussions are good,, mandates and ultimatums are not. Hope it never goes to that point.. and there is no reason it should.

[seanf]

On the subject of RG, I tried posting something over there three times. The first one lasted about 2 minutes. The second one lasted about 30 seconds. The third lasted the longest, and that was about five minutes.

Someone started another thread asking why my post was deleted. That thread was locked and put in the off topic bin and buried.

And by a wholly remarkable coincidence, about an hour after we removed Jandrew's sections, Jandrew announced that they were sponsoring a free raffle for a couple of new watches over on RG. Funny how that works, huh?

[hk45ca]

i guess the "this hobby is illegal" comment is lost on me. in the usa importation and selling is illegal. buying and owning is not. remembering these things mean nothing to me. even if you want to use that as a way to apologize for their actions remember, if somebody sells a kilo of cocaine and it turns out to be baking soda the seller will face a fate much worse than loosing that customer, he will loose his life and probably his families lives if the buyer was griselda blanco.

[RobbieG]

Griselda Blanco...love it....HK you are killing me...too funny...

I don't know why but it is reminding me of that movie from the 80's called The Princess Bride:

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

i guess the "this hobby is illegal" comment is lost on me. in the usa importation and selling is illegal. buying and owning is not. remembering these things mean nothing to me. even if you want to use that as a way to apologize for their actions remember, if somebody sells a kilo of cocaine and it turns out to be baking soda the seller will face a fate much worse than loosing that customer, he will loose his life and probably his families lives if the buyer was griselda blanco.

[Noel Fleischer]

What i bring to this discussion is my own feelings and experience.

i was trying to say that most of us are not privi to the back door dealings

of black market merchants across the globe. (apparently Dave 123 might be)

I am not naive- of course i beleive that Josh and Andrew (and Bill Gates)

would try to manipulate the market to their advantage. Nor do I believe all of the claims;

for example- the ETA issue vs. clones. Like many of us, I came here late in the game.

I was used to paying $1000 for so called solid 18k gold reps with 27 jewel movements!

I am used to be lied to in this game. Not to condone it, rather by comparison I find

Josh a relative saint.

As for Eurotimez- not to knock him, but he seems to be enjoying a honeymoon around here.

Perhaps because he is fairly new as a dealer. I bought 1 watch from him which turned out

to be a POS! (Daytona which is a problem piece- I know) I really doubt the QC was better than Josh in that case.

And- I realize that Josh & Andrew both probably drop-ship, even if they deny it.

Its a free country- if RMI bans the Cartel good for them. Caveat Emptor, if people don't feel good about

"jandrew" they can buy elsewhere. So far; I have no reason to be angry with Josh. He's always been fair with me,

selfishly, that's my main concern.

[kbh]

I've always felt Josh and Andrew were fishy, and this confirms it. When Eddie Lee retired, I was at a loss who to work with. Angus became my guy because he mirrored what my good dealer EL did...fair pricing, good quality goods, and customer service.

Yet Angus is "supposedly" one of the other members of the Cartel. Now what do you do?

[Pugwash]

Yet Angus is "supposedly" one of the other members of the Cartel. Now what do you do?

He was, but he's not any more. This much is obvious if you follow the recent Skyland episode.

[FxrAndy]

As for Eurotimez- not to knock him, but he seems to be enjoying a honeymoon around here.

Perhaps because he is fairly new as a dealer. I bought 1 watch from him which turned out

to be a POS! (Daytona which is a problem piece- I know) I really doubt the QC was better than Josh in that case.

And- I realize that Josh & Andrew both probably drop-ship, even if they deny it.

Did you bring this up with Eurotimes to see about repair or replacement?

Yet Angus is "supposedly" one of the other members of the Cartel. Now what do you do?

After the skyland lark i am not so sure?

[TwoTone]

I reminded of the wise words that one of our fellow Admin's wrote many moons ago on a different but equally important topic...

"We live in a virtual world which is 2 parts reality and

8 parts a cross between fantasy, fiction and distortion.

Nothing is truly as it seems yet everything has a glimmer

of veracity."

copyright 2006 - jjajh

TT

[RobbieG]

Not familiar...

Link or condensed summary?

Skyland episode.

[Noel Fleischer]

Yep I spoke to Eurotimez about an exchange- no deal.

I even said i had a watchmaker take it apart and i was told the mov't was no good- wheels bent.

Chris really didn't believe me but in the end offered $25 credit. as a "kind gesture". also offered to take it back , maybe fix it.

I'm underwhelmed, but i'm not angry. probably get something else.

i think Jandrew would have at least equaled that deal, probably better.

[Daytona4me]

There was a time.. long long ago where there was a dealer named TWP. He was kicked off of repgeek because the cartel did not want him there. Andrew had a problem with him so he was removed.

TWP posted all of this with screen shots of the conversation on RWI. The place went nuts.. they could not believe that repgeek was actually being run by the cartel. The [censored] stunk so bad,, repgeek added him back as a dealer pretty quick and TWP removed the screen prints of the shoutbox which were so damming.. I grabbed a copy of those prints before they were deleted because I had a feeling they would be deleted and lost forever.

Here are those screen prints.. draw your own conclusions.. the entire staff is very sorry to TWP , they dont want to see him go..

Again.. another example of "control" this time.. it is clear that their influence or ...decisions... require that any thread that is posted about this event (which is a hot enough topic to have 14 pages on RWG right now) be deleted immediately.... and damage control happen almost immediately by Josh and Andrew doing a raffle on RG. ??? again..... draw your own conclusions... If anyone here is blind.. can someone lend them glasses..

[Pugwash]

Not familiar...

Link or condensed summary?

Clicks on search ...

Types in Skyland ...

Looks for the most likely answer ...

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=78034

Looks closer ...

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=78138

[TeeJay]

What i bring to this discussion is my own feelings and experience.

i was trying to say that most of us are not privi to the back door dealings

of black market merchants across the globe. (apparently Dave 123 might be)

I am not naive- of course i beleive that Josh and Andrew (and Bill Gates)

would try to manipulate the market to their advantage. Nor do I believe all of the claims;

for example- the ETA issue vs. clones. Like many of us, I came here late in the game.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean that you don't believe all of the claims? If you mean with regards the B&R Fiasco, they were caught labelling movements as one thing, when they were something else. In the end, the closest to an admission, was when Andrew said that yes, they did have the other movements in, but they were known in China by the other name. There are numerous reports of people paying extra for a watch to be waterproofed, and receiving watches which leaked when they got wet. When someone 'arrived in the game' is no excuse for not educating one's self about these discussions. I don't mean to be offish or abrupt, but I am not prepared to debate with you wether the Cartel are, or are not unscrupulous, as the evidence of this is long established, that they are unscrupulous. It has simply taken this long for a forum to have the balls to stand up to them.

I was used to paying $1000 for so called solid 18k gold reps with 27 jewel movements!

I am used to be lied to in this game. Not to condone it, rather by comparison I find

Josh a relative saint.

As for Eurotimez- not to knock him, but he seems to be enjoying a honeymoon around here.

Perhaps because he is fairly new as a dealer. I bought 1 watch from him which turned out

to be a POS! (Daytona which is a problem piece- I know) I really doubt the QC was better than Josh in that case.

And- I realize that Josh & Andrew both probably drop-ship, even if they deny it.

And if that's been your experience, then that's a wholly valid opinion. I'm sorry to hear that your transaction with Eurotimez hasn't gone down well, the only reason I commented on that, was because he has shown examples of the QC he provides, where the Cartel only drop-ship. As before, I have no problem with Eurotimez charging a higher price, because of the actual QC which his services provide.

Its a free country- if RMI bans the Cartel good for them. Caveat Emptor, if people don't feel good about

"jandrew" they can buy elsewhere. So far; I have no reason to be angry with Josh. He's always been fair with me,

selfishly, that's my main concern.

Not to be overly moral or condescending, but personally, I'm looking at this for what is best for this overall community, not what is best for me. As the thread on RWI clearly states, this is not about forcing anyone to buy or not to buy from the Cartel, but about taking a stand against unscrupulous dealers.

[hk45ca]

Griselda Blanco...love it....HK you are killing me...too funny...

I don't know why but it is reminding me of that movie from the 80's called The Princess Bride:

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

sorry man it's what comes to my mind every time i see somebody say "remember it is an illegal hobby" the scenario i posted is how it goes down in an illegal situation and everybody here knows it. it is never, "it's ok because it is illegal". this is how it really goes down. google griselda blanko and read how it works in the real world when somebody gets screwed big time in an illegal business. she served her time and was deported back to columbia and now no one knows where she is. she may be dead or maybe not but there are people everywhere looking over their shoulder all day long waiting to get hit because of it.

jandrew and co. keep doing this because they don't think their will be any retaliation but they are worried enough they are reading this thread to see what kind of damage control they will consider. so far it is a raffel at rg

[RobbieG]

Wow...

There was a time.. long long ago where there was a dealer named TWP. He was kicked off of repgeek because the cartel did not want him there. Andrew had a problem with him so he was removed.

TWP posted all of this with screen shots of the conversation on RWI. The place went nuts.. they could not believe that repgeek was actually being run by the cartel. The [censored] stunk so bad,, repgeek added him back as a dealer pretty quick and TWP removed the screen prints of the shoutbox which were so damming.. I grabbed a copy of those prints before they were deleted because I had a feeling they would be deleted and lost forever.

Here are those screen prints.. draw your own conclusions.. the entire staff is very sorry to TWP , they dont want to see him go..

Again.. another example of "control" this time.. it is clear that their influence or ...decisions... require that any thread that is posted about this event (which is a hot enough topic to have 14 pages on RWG right now) be deleted immediately.... and damage control happen almost immediately by Josh and Andrew doing a raffle on RG. ??? again..... draw your own conclusions... If anyone here is blind.. can someone lend them glasses..

[Pugwash]

google griselda blanko

No, don't. Google Griselda Blanco instead.