dieselpower Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Hello everybody, I feel the need to raise this question. When is a watch a "franken"? I pose this question because I have seen many watches described as "franken" and I would class them as modded reps. I could be wrong but to me a true franken is a watch made wholly from genuine parts - just like Frankensteins creation. He did not use replica arms and legs did he? So, I open the debate when is a watch a franken and when is it a top end rep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 An interesting topic My feeling would be that the parts would have to be gen in nature rather than rep. For example, I could buy several reps, strip them, then cobble something together from the parts, but, I wouldn't consider it a franken, as the parts involved wouldn't be OEM in origin... I'll be interested to hear other's thoughts on the subject Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrenalin Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 The way I interpret 'Franken' is like this.... Each piece, by itself is dead. Uninspired. Lifeless. The sum of all the pieces in its animated, functional form results in a product greater than the sum of all the individual parts. 'Franken' also refers to the effort and the passion that goes into each of these pieces. When I first started, I didn't know who 'Franken' was, but boy, did he sure make some cool watches!.... If you undertake your own 'Franken' project, try to get somebody else to hold it when the lightning strikes... it stings quiet a bit.... -K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highoeyazmuhudee Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 i consider a true franken gen dial, crown, bezel, clasp. not sure where a gen movement would put it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbh Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 I would think of Franken as a watch that is virtually indistinguishable from a gen, but which contains at least some non-genuine parts. The main ingredients would have to be gen case, dial, and crystal. Although there are surely some of each of these items that would be indistinguishable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Great Topic idea I'm too young on the forum to state what a Franken is but I sincerely feel that lately a simple rep with a gen crown became a "Franken". I do not consider it as a Franken at all though. So this need to be clarified for the even fresher new comers to this community. I'm looking forward to what veterans have to say. My definition has already been posted. A Franken is a watch you cannot identify as a rep because it's so close or because you must put it in pieces to see all parts individualy. In example, a very good rep case with gen case back - gen dial - gen hands - gen crown - gen crystal - gen bracelet - crown guards shaved to perfection or gen for Pams is a true Franken. You must open it to see that the movement isn't genuine. But a rep with only a gen movement isn't a Franken either.... JustMy2euroCents Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolex001 Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 A Franken is - as per definition - something modified with other parts - to make it better/stronger/etc.. in our case it would be modding a rep with parts so that is (virtually) indistinguishable from the real deal... hard to achieve, but doable - and mostly expensive: Implying that a basic rep with a gen (cheap) crown is not a real Franken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted October 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Glad people find the subject interesting. I know that a similar argument occurs in the classic car world, a world that shares many similarities with our own world of watches. There is a definition of what makes a classic car an "original" or a replica, engine gear box chassis etc (not sure of the exact rules but I know they exist). Would it be possible for us to have an open debate and decide on a definition for ourselves? How many parts need to be gen - what parts need they be etc etc. For me, and this is only a personal opinion, the movement is one of the major factors. I have reps with gen parts but I would never contemplate describing them as franken until a piece had a gen movement. The case to me is not such an important issue. If a watch had a gen movment with a good 1:1 case (modded if necessary) and various other gen parts then I think I would call it franken. However, a gen case with a non gen movement is not to me a franken. Can we find the answer? Lets try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolex001 Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Somehow - if the initial creator of the timepiece can't realize it's fake any longer. That would involve, taking as example a 1665 seadweller - a genuine dial, 1:1 case, genuine movment, genuine caseback and all other parts either gen or indistinguishable from rep - so that even Rolex of Geneva wouldnt realize it is Franken/fake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 To me Franken means that some major components (dial plus hands, movement, case) are genuine. Simply replacing a crown or hands qualifies as modded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youpmelone Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 To me Franken means that some major components (dial plus hands, movement, case) are genuine. Simply replacing a crown or hands qualifies as modded. do agree.. Franken = major components, either a case, a dial, a movement. a bezel,crystal, crown, hands or bracelet falls imho in the modded category Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJo35 Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Got Franken? Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Igor, would you mind telling me whose movement I did put in? Igor: And you won't be angry? Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: I will NOT be angry. Igor: Abby something. Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Abby something .... Abby what? Igor: Abby Normal. Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Abby Normal? Igor: I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justasgood Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 My idea of a "Franken" Everything that went to building this watch is genuine Rolex except for the mid case and caseback. Well over $2500.00 into this one and considering that an exact watch (Pointed CG's and Gloss Service dial) sold for $10,000, I think it was worth every penny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Yup, That is a Franken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Any rep fitted with 1 or more gen parts is, by definition, a frankenwatch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beano2004 Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Great Topic so would this be consider a Franken Jimmy Fu case, bezel, and sapphire Gen 111 dial plus hands Gen Crown Gen Crown guard Gen case back Swiss movement? ( even thou its a tell ) or if everything was a gen but the case would you call it a Franken or just a gen? bean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Great Topic so would this be consider a Franken Jimmy Fu case, bezel, and sapphire Gen 111 dial plus hands Gen Crown Gen Crown guard Gen case back Swiss movement? ( even thou its a tell ) or if everything was a gen but the case would you call it a Franken or just a gen? bean In my world, that is a Franken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted October 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 or if everything was a gen but the case would you call it a Franken or just a gen? bean Lets be clear about one thing. If a watch was not made at the original factory - no matter if all the parts are gen - then the watch is not a gen. It is franken. I think we can all agree on that. Genuine means exactly that, genuinely made by the manufacturer not assembled by an independant watchsmith out of parts he/she has purchased or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakemaster Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Franken is when a watch has been altered to a state that it no loner as it was when it was made or should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted October 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Any rep fitted with 1 or more gen parts is, by definition, a frankenwatch. I take your point freddy333 and I think it is a good one. If we accept this as a definition then we will all have to re-think our watches and their values. I think we can agree that generally speaking a franken is held in higher regard than a modded watch and is therefore of greater value because there is an implication that the addition of genuine parts has meant that the base watch was of higher quality and the cost of gen parts is greater etc etc. However, a superbly modded MBW 1665 good rep glass, hands, fantastic ageing of dial, ubi datewheel etc is a modded watch. Another MBW 1665 with a gen crown and tube but no other mods and clearly to the trained eye a rep is in fact a franken. The former watch looks better and has had much more work done to it and is more valuable and more desirable but by definition would somehow be perceived as a lesser watch without the magic word franken attached to it, even though is worth more money. If we are genuinely looking for a definition rather than just mere opinions.... I think this.... he thinks that etc..... then I think freddy333 has a very strong argument. At least it is clear cut. Does it have any gen parts? If yes, its a franken, if no then it's not simple as that. I have a question - what about the bracelet/strap? If a poor quality SUB has no mods and no gen parts but a gen clasp on the bracelet - is this a franken? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Since the term franken derives from Mary Shelley's 'Frankenstein' story (the Frankenstein monster was cobbled together from the remains of various (different) dead bodies), technically, it should describe any watch that is put together out of parts from other watches -- regardless of whether the other watches are gens, reps or custom. However, the definition of the term frankenwatch, as I 1st read about it in an internal Rolex memorandum to dealers back in the 1980s (I had a close friend whose family founded a large chain of retail stores, which were ADs), was meant solely to describe a 'fake' or 'replica' Rolex watch that was fitted with genuine Rolex parts. So I guess you can take your pick of definitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Since the term franken derives from Mary Shelley's 'Frankenstein' story (the Frankenstein monster was cobbled together from the remains of various (different) dead bodies), technically, it should describe any watch that is put together out of parts from other watches -- regardless of whether the other watches are gens, reps or custom. However, the definition of the term frankenwatch, as I 1st read about it in an internal Rolex memorandum to dealers back in the 1980s (I had a close friend whose family founded a large chain of retail stores, which were ADs), was meant solely to describe a 'fake' or 'replica' Rolex watch that was fitted with genuine Rolex parts. So I guess you can take your pick of definitions. I cannot help but agree with freddy... And i guess opinions & definitions are 2 worlds apart. Just my $0.02 worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted October 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Since the term franken derives from Mary Shelley's 'Frankenstein' story (the Frankenstein monster was cobbled together from the remains of various (different) dead bodies), technically, it should describe any watch that is put together out of parts from other watches -- regardless of whether the other watches are gens, reps or custom. However, the definition of the term frankenwatch, as I 1st read about it in an internal Rolex memorandum to dealers back in the 1980s (I had a close friend whose family founded a large chain of retail stores, which were ADs), was meant solely to describe a 'fake' or 'replica' Rolex watch that was fitted with genuine Rolex parts. So I guess you can take your pick of definitions. I think we're getting somewhere here and I mostly agree with the conclusions you draw about the novel from which the term comes. I would only take issue with the "parts from other watches" bit. Yes parts are used from other watches but I would argue that those parts would have to be gen. In the same way that the parts the doctor used in the story were human. If he had used a chimpanzees arm and a pigs heart then I think your conclusion would be correct, but he didn't. Also this keeps the spirit of the term alive which we have all come to understand as something desirable and somehow more valuable. So, I agree that a watch with one or more gen parts transplanted on to it is a franken - the only problem is that the term is too vague for reasons we have gone into before - the goalposts are too wide. As there are not too many major parts to a typical watch (counting the movement as one item) perhaps we could use a percentage system. Experts - certainly not me could establish a scale whereby the various parts are given a percentage value (eg crystal 5%, crown 5% movement 30% etc etc) then a watch could be described as a "10% franken", that it has a gen crown and crystal the rest of the parts are rep but those two items make up the 10% scoring. This system would be fair and informative and would also work for a piece which is 100% made from gen parts but still, in my book at least be classed as a franken. What do you think? Would it be possible to ever agree on the percentage values of the parts? Would any experts be prepared to draw up a short list of their values? I hasten to add that a part should be given a percentage value in relation to a watch a a whole and not because of its rarity of difficulty to acquire. Eg if it is decided that a dial is valued at 15% then that figure is true for all dials and does not change for a PN Daytona or a Comex or whatever. As a basic list of major parts to be given percentage values (small screws and clips etc etc should not count - we would be here forever) we could use the following: Case (incl springbars) Bezel Bezel insert Glass/crystal Dial Hands Crown/tube Pushers Movement (incl datewheel) I also think that the bracelet/strap should be dealt with as a separate issue - for simplicities sake. If anyone (expert or not) would care to point out any glaring omissions to this basic list then please do. I certainly don't want to dictate the rules on this but feel that it is an issue worth pursuing and would hope that we could get to a mutually agreed scale whereby a frankenwatch can be accurately evaluated and this would be of great help to all concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Well what other said.. Just putting for example a gen crown on a Panerai does not make the watch franken.. It need at least 2-3 major parts to qualify as that.. Dial and hands are the two most common since 'case' is very difficult to find genuine in most brands ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elisiX Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 (edited) My now sold Omega SMP Chrono is franken. (Genuine Dial, Hands, Bezel, Insert, Crown, Bracelet, ETA7750) My Breitling Super Avenger is franken. (Genuine Dial, Bezel, Calf, Deployant, Chief AR, ETA7750) My Breitling Bentley 6.75 is NOT franken. (Genuine Calf, Deployant, Jakub AR) My Panerai 250/236 is NOT franken. (Genuine crown, full mods, ETA7753) I come to these conclusions by the fact that significant parts of a watch must be genuine to be franken. (dial, hands, case, bezel ONLY) Anything less, and its 'highly modded' with genuine X (calf/deployant/crown etc) Edited October 20, 2008 by elisiX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.