trios Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I would like to pose this question to you, fellow geeks ,to see what your knowledge or opinion is regarding this subject. Our best reps from the dealers,the so called super reps,are they the only ones available on the market, or are there others of even better quality available trough other "channels"? Who has been in this hobby for a while, probably knows the legend of the misterious Rolex Paul Newman with a copy of the original movement,that maybe the dealers prefer to sell as an assembled watch. Why? Because for a high price tag it's possible to find a buyer as long as it has a copy of the original movement ,for a "simple" rep with the wrong movement,even a very good one, not. I know personally of a collector that sells a Paul Newman with an original movement and is asking for $2500. This price is understandable,maybe a bit high if it has a perfect chinese copy movement,hard to believe if it has a real V72. The price then should be about double. If you just think......where does Phong get all the movements for the watches he sells? They must be available, for sure, but i doubt in large quantities,especially if you have to buy them cheap in order to sell them again. Though, if you ask him for two, three or a hundreed in theory he has them available. Another recurrent mith, is the one about reps in solid gold,not plated. Are they just a hoax , a rare piece ,or is there an "underground" market for this kinds of products? Maybe, they are only available in the back room of some shops in Thailand,for people in the know, as the intenet buyer is not avaiable to spend a large amount of money for this high-end reps that he can't actually see and touch. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paneraibob Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 There must be an underground just yesterday a saw a posting here about a clone of a rolex movement so there must be a market for this otherwhise it make no sence to produce them. Just one question who is Phong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krayfish Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Phong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 The basic answer is yes. It is not so much that it is underground. The whole replica industry is fragmented (not surprising since it is illegal). So not everything is advertised and certainly not on a generally read 15,000 member forum. There certainly are solid gold reps but usually they are one-off projects by specific dealers/manufacturers who are dealing directly with their customers or distributors. I also suspect that you would find that some of the dealers here do specific one-off projects for those who want to pay for it. With solid gold reps now selling in excess of $2,000 there will not be a deep market on a general forum. On the movements, there certainly are clone movements made for specific dealers and projects. I believe Phong is the Vietnamese high end Rolex-oriented "franken" parts and watch maker but someone else can correct me if I have it wrong. And it is not that the reps are necessarily better than a super rep. They generally take an existing rep and improve on it. It is one thing to make a better Rolex or Panerai. It is another thing to actually produce an entirely different watch. Without the potential volumes of "super reps" watches like the C1 or HBB's would never be made. And no I don't want any PM's about where to get a solid gold daytona. If you have to ask you're not supposed to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Phong is jewelryandwatch.com. We call him the 'Vietnamese Connection' because we believe his parts are coming from Viet Nam. I assume that Phong takes V72 movements he buys (around $1K) and rebuilds them with Rolex copy parts- bridges, etc. He also engraves standard bridges. He can end up with something that is very close to looking like a real Rolex 727, or 722-1. He also must have access to aftermarket gold 6263/5 cases. but if someone is machining a 6263 case, it can't be too hard to do one in 18K. People here are building a 6263 for $2-3K that Phong sells for $5-6K. Of course, NDTrading is another high end rep dealer- particularly with early Rolex Sub models. Pop in a gen rolex movement and you have a nice franken. The original goes for $15K-30K, you build one for $2K-3K. These make sense if you enjoy watches but can't afford the gen- they're very good reps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 quote = Another recurrent mith, is the one about reps in solid gold,not plated. Are they just a hoax , a rare piece ,or is there an "underground" market for this kinds of products? Maybe, they are only available in the back room of some shops in Thailand, for people in the know, as the intenet buyer is not avaiable to spend a large amount of money for this high-end reps that he can't actually see and touch. What do you think? /quote I have seen solid gold replicas for over 20 years and owned a solid 18K Daytona with a swiss val/eta 7753 10 years ago. I paid $2500 for it. An internet gold and diamond company called 'Apples of Gold' sold the exact same watch under the 'Geveve' brand a few years later for about the same price. A traveling gold and diamond dealer used to sell solid 18k rolex president replicas with eta 2836 for $2200 to $3000 (depending on the dial and bezel) in the late 1990s. A tutone DJ was $750. This is where the 18k Daytona replica came from. I worked on a solid 18k submariner replica with oyster bracelet a few years ago with an eta 2824 in it and still have a new solid 18k replica unsigned 'president' case that I bought in 1999. The catch on this particular case is the case opening is too big and a 27.9mm rolex DJ dial falls through the front of the case. (rolex spec cases do not have this problem, this case was made for an oversize pave diamond dial) When gold was less than $400/troz the watches and cases were more or less affordable but when gold went up over $1000/troz, prices shot up and never came down. Before gold prices went crazy, a solid 18k Italy made DJ case and bezel for a 3135 was $925, and a submariner case was $1225. Now the cases are over $2000 and the bracelets are about the same price, so it would be over $4k with no running gear. Since many of the replicas advertised as having 'solid gold' bezels and center links do not have solid gold (imagine that!)...the easiest way to have a watch with solid gold is probably to buy a replica tutone DJ that will accept a genuine spec crystal and bezel, buy a bezel and tutone bracelet with solid center links from eBay etc and make one up. I made a tutone lady DJ up for my wife to beat to death and the total cost was about $600...it sure beats $5k for a genuine. She already killed a genuine tutone lady DJ so I bought her a new tutone no date lady oyster perpetual...she would not wear it but wore the replica for a while. (??) Figure that one out. Now she wears a Citizen eco-rive with a diamond bezel. (I have a spare just in case) No date = less stuff to break or wear out and less hassle to set when it runs down every few days from not being worn. Even with a quick set you have to run the hands around to see if it is on am or pm and after a while the canon pinion wears to where the hands will not move with the watch running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribal Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I can remember Maria sold a Daytona with El Primero Movement in the past, You could got it with individual serialnumber and the Case was 1:1 But I have never heard for a 3135 Clone in the Past Now is a sub Case 1:1 for 3135 Movement available so I think it is easier to build a really HigH End Replica But there are also a lot of Super Frankens on the Forum...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the window god Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Is it me or is this a strange first post? I dont know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Careful about using the term geeks here. As Lani would say, that is a term used to describe the other movie which is Sparta... Anyway, the answer to your question is probably that you don't want to know the answer. The risks far outweigh the potential reward. Spending over two thousand dollars for a fake anything is silly. A guy told me the other day that he had found some great counterfeit Armani Collezini suits on the web and they were only $1200. Meanwhile, I just spent $1900 for a made to measure of the same thing direct from Italy. The spread just isn't big enough. If they were $300 maybe I could see swinging at it. The discount hardly seems worth the risk he took of sending money unsecured to China and the risk that it won't be anywhere near the quality he is expecting or treated with a chemical he may be allergic to or it doesn't fit right and on the return even if he can find the guy customs grabs it or whatever. With these watches, for the same money you could have a new gen Omega or Breitling and for a bit more a really nice real used Rolex. I think you see my point. Risk is a good thing always in anything worth doing, but what you win has to exceed what you lose.. And in the case of the watches you speak of, as well as my Armani example it just doesn't hold up... I would like to pose this question to you, fellow geeks ,to see what your knowledge or opinion is regarding this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadog13 Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Is it me or is this a strange first post? I dont know... he is a member on RG forum as well...don't know for how much but nothing strange there for me! for example the collector PWC told on RG forum that there are/will be available PAM233 and PAM307...he said that the price of the 233 would be cca. 1500$ and won't be available in big number...and they are sold apparently on preorder for who knows how long time in advance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I think that every hobby has within it various branches or levels of serious effectors of that hobby. Back when I got into reps (25 or so years ago), I remember hearing about these ghost-like craftsmen who manufactured & sold franken watches. These often incredible creations were far beyond what many now refer to as a 'Super Rep' since they were hand-made & assembled with genuine parts. Back in the day, you had to know someone who knew someone if you wanted to buy a good rep watch, and tracking down a real connection for a franken was next to impossible (I was never able to back then). Today, there are many more people who manufacture frankens and/or made-to-order non-gen watches. The only real difference is that it is far easier for potential buyers to find them because of the Web. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorgenss Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Is it me or is this a strange first post? I dont know... I am Trioslescano. My nick is modified , I dont Know... I am some yesrs here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flex Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 Certainly there are alot more dealers than the ones advertised in the forum. Most are solo, Sole Proprietors, and with good watchmakers skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newdoc Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 An underground, underground market?..... Hilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addingwatch Posted November 15, 2008 Report Share Posted November 15, 2008 There is definitely a higher end replica market. It is primarily vintage Rolex and Patek models. As described above Phong is a major supplier of parts. Most of the dials, hands cases and some movement parts come from Vietnam. The quality of these vintage watches are way beyond any of the normal versions available. They do use true 18K gold cases and often will modify older stainless cases, instead of newer SS to get the same texture and metal mix/oxidation. The best quality reps are of pre -1970s models. As the swiss were upgrading their equipment in the 70's, they sold much of it to Russia & Asia (creating the parts base). On the high end Rolex, they will modify a Val 72 or 23 (or standard Rolex movement) and you can have added date, month or moon phase functionality. If you have the money (and patience), you can have a val 23 movement modified to be a perfect match to a 1930 - 1965 Patek chrono movement. The work is expensive and takes about 3 months. The parts are changed and all of the movement pieces are finished to an incredible level. When you have a perfect vintage Patek in your hand, you realize why the go for $200K+ at auctions. And if you are really insane, you build a repeater... Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakemaster Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 An underground, underground market?..... Hilarious Beat me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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